Tywin/Tyrion/Shae

[Tourniquet]

Varys obviously wanted Tywin dead. He makes that obvious by his actions on Dance Epilogue. I'm starting to think that Shae was a plant by Varys. He didn't stop Tyrion in the least from going up the ladder. He even tells him the exact number of rungs. Shae's presence clearly angered Tyrion enough to kill Tywin. The casual use of the word "whore" immediately after he had been found using the very same whore that was supposedly loyal to Tyrion for so long was enough provocation to fill Tywin full of crossbow.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I think Varys might have planted her there as well. Or at least knew she would be there.

The excuse that Tywin must have know isn't too sound; Tyrion knew he would find him in the privy, this suggest he had some serious difficulties moving his bowels. Varys definitely wanted Tywin dead.

[OberynBlackfyre]

I believe Varys knew she was there, but I don't believe she was a spy for Varys all along. She MIGHT have joined him after she came to Kings Landing but even though I don't think she would be privy to much information other than what was going on with Sansa and the comings and goings of Tyrion, yet if he wanted to find that out there were other less obvious people he could have gotten. We all know that Shae was completely capable of selling people out.....if anything I think Varys recruited her to spy on Tywin after Tyrion was found guilty and then Tywin started fucking her......she probably would have been the one to send Tywin the same way as Pycelle and Kevan if Tyrion had not gotten there first.

[Hear Us Roar]

Tywin does not hate whores. I have no idea why this keeps getting said. They, in the series, have no care about sleeping with someone another slept with. The only issue a nobleman has is if his wife or wife to be was had by another man. she was convenient she was a whore and he happened to need one at the moment. Tywin is a busy man and reminds me a bit of Bill Clinton in that regard. Bill did not get with Monica because she was attractive, he could have had many more attractive women, he got with her because it was convenient. She was there to alleviate his need. Tywin could have sought out a whore but probably saw sex as a need to get out of your system quickly to get his head back in to the war going on. That is my analysis of it anyhow.

[ACVG]

i dont think tywin "hated whores"

cersei's words after finding a dead shea were "he had no use for whores"

i believe varys has been helping tywin find whores for a long time and this is just "another whore"

since varys knows that shea and tywin are together, he lures tyrion there and crosses his fingers

[Northern-She-Wolf]

It was a set up, Vary's when he told Tyrion how to get there it was weird and the whole scene of things, I think Vary's planned the whole thing.

[GallowsKnight]

That also means that Tywin had been on the toilet trying to move his bowels for a long time - is that normal?

As other's have said. We don't really know how long she was asleep for. But even if Tywin was on the toilet for a while that's not that strange.

He's an old-ish man. There's a whole variety of medical conditions from benign to life threatening that could give him constipation or diarrhoea. Not forgetting that a medieval diet is very different to our own, not a lot of fibre, poor standards of cleanliness. Wyman Manderly is of a similar age albeit fat and he spend hours on his privy.

[Tourniquet]

Tywin does not hate whores. I have no idea why this keeps getting said. They, in the series, have no care about sleeping with someone another slept with. The only issue a nobleman has is if his wife or wife to be was had by another man. she was convenient she was a whore and he happened to need one at the moment. Tywin is a busy man and reminds me a bit of Bill Clinton in that regard. Bill did not get with Monica because she was attractive, he could have had many more attractive women, he got with her because it was convenient. She was there to alleviate his need. Tywin could have sought out a whore but probably saw sex as a need to get out of your system quickly to get his head back in to the war going on. That is my analysis of it anyhow.

Its not that he "hates whores" in the sense that he doesn't like them on a personal level. I think its very true that he hates the idea that a Lannister would be caught with one. He has such a high opinion of himself and his family (even Tyrion) that he would never want it being said that a Lanniater would have to pay for sex. He "hates" whores because they represent a certain sense of desperation that he would not want associated with his house.

[Quiet Isle]

Its not that he "hates whores" in the sense that he doesn't like them on a personal level. I think its very true that he hates the idea that a Lannister would be caught with one. He has such a high opinion of himself and his family (even Tyrion) that he would never want it being said that a Lanniater would have to pay for sex. He "hates" whores because they represent a certain sense of desperation that he would not want associated with his house.

Well it has been posited that the way to the whorehouse underground was built to facilitate tywin's "needs". which leads me back to Joanna/aerys/tyrion.

[Tourniquet]

Well it has been posited that the way to the whorehouse underground was built to facilitate tywin's "needs". which leads me back to Joanna/aerys/tyrion.

I believe that's certainly true (cited it earlier in this thread). What I find odd is that he would have a whore, and a whore that is now known to the court due to Tyrion's trial in his chambers. If anyone were to happen to visit Tywin or a guard were to come in or a cupbearer or anything, it would get out. This I find nearly unthinkable for Tywin to risk

[coldplums8]

I thought this thread did a pretty decent job of making the case for Varys planting Shae.

It just seems very out of character for Tywin to have his hated son's personal whore languishing in his rooms. If we add in the idea that Varys spiked Tywin's food with laxatives like Tyrion did earlier with Cersei, that explains how he had time to sneak in Shae (drugged asleep) naked into Tywin's bed. Also, when Tyrion confronts his father on the toilet, Tywin doesn't blush or bat an eyelash at the idea that Tyrion would have seen Shae. He seems oblivious to the fact that she was there, and still scoffs at whores in general. What he knows doesn't match up with what Varys set him up to seem.

[Tourniquet]

And Tywin is not going to let Tyrion take the black with the knowledge of Shae.

[Sword-Of-Mid2late-Evening]

Tywin's problem was that Tyrion brought shame upon his house by being so open with his whoring. His foremost concern was the honor and power of his house. Varys brought Shae into Tywin's chamber knowing the effect it would have on Tyrion, ridding himself of the great Lord Tywin, one of the major obstacles in his way

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Also: Tyrion KNEW Tywin would be on the privy, which suggests that he spent a considerable amount of time there every night (otherwise he could have been in his solar, or wherever..)

[Lummel]

Well it has been posited that the way to the whorehouse underground was built to facilitate tywin's "needs"...

yes it has, but the argument for it is circular - Shae was in tywin's bed, therefore tywin used prostitutes, therefore tywin had built the tunnel to chataya's

The source for the tunnel story of course is Varys.

[A wilding]

The source for the tunnel story of course is Varys.

And it was course Tyrion that Varys told it to.

[Groat]

It was a set up, Vary's when he told Tyrion how to get there it was weird and the whole scene of things, I think Vary's planned the whole thing.

How could Varys have planned the whole thing though? This is something that has always bothered me. The only reason Tyrion wanted to kill his father was because of Tysha, and Jaime was the only person who knew the truth about Tysha other than Tywin of course. From this perspective, it makes sense for Varys to plant Shae in the room with the hopes of Tyrion killing Tywin, and Varys just got lucky when Jaime told the truth about Tysha.

[Quiet Isle]

How could Varys have planned the whole thing though? This is something that has always bothered me. The only reason Tyrion wanted to kill his father was because of Tysha, and Jaime was the only person who knew the truth about Tysha other than Tywin of course. From this perspective, it makes sense for Varys to plant Shae in the room with the hopes of Tyrion killing Tywin, and Varys just got lucky when Jaime told the truth about Tysha.

The only reason Tyrion wanted to kill Tywin was Shae. How about he sent him off to be killed in the Vanguard with the clans. That Tywin was always cruel to him. That Tyrion held the Castle bravely, but Tywin swooped in, took the glory, removed him from his chambers (and took the over), and threw him into a crappy storage room for a bedroom. THen he gets put into a dungeon. I think those, topped by the Tysha debacle, sent him over the edge. Enough was enough.

[R'hllor's Bastard]

Yah, the end of GOTs they have that great father/son moment where Tywin says "I always thought you were a stunted fool, perhaps I was wrong" then its like awwwww Tywin respects Tyrion now.

Then after Tyrion cleans up the city and defends it from Stannis, Tywin comes back to KL and Tyrion gets the stunted fool treatment again.

[Danelle]

Could be a lot of things.

• The most obvious is that Tywin first met Shae during the trial. Shae is beautiful and when she cried she made every man in the court to hug her. After the trial he kept her as his mistress.
  
• Shae was brought to tyrion by Bron. She was a camp follower at the Lannister army. Bron tells that he got her from a knight. Bron had just joined Tywin Lannister's army. There is a possibility that Tywin met Bron, without Tyrion's knowledge. Tywin is a lot like Roose. Ramsay is a necessary evil for Roose but still his only heir. Roose has Ramsay believe that the bastard boys and even Reek are loyal to him. In reality they all serve Roose. Perhaps Tywin ordered Bron to take Shae and use her as a spy. Then, after Tyrion's trial, Tywin took Shae at his bed.
  
• Ok, this may not be a valid point, but in the tv series Shae's role was expanded. Not only she becomes Sansa's friend but during Blackwater, she urges Sansa to go at her room but she cannot join her because she has to say goodbye to someone. Strange since the only people she knew in KL were Tyrion, Sansa and Varys.
  

• “You ask that? you, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobediant, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about waring that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

  The main reason Tywin hates Tyrion is Joanna. Tywin lost a wife and got a dwarf. No matter what, Tywin would not allow anyone to make fun at him. Keeping Shae at his bed was too obvious, especially ina place like Red Keep where nothing was a secret.Varys during Tyrion's escape, was quite strange.

  "then what?"
  "you have to go to the left for about sixty feet, where there will be a lever you have to twist around in order to get in, remember to jiggle it just right.............but you shouldn't go."
  

  It is as if he almost urges Tyrion to go at his father. Also Tywin's body smelled really bad. There is the theory that Tywin was in the privy because Oberyn had poisoned him. It is nice to think that Varys had placed Shae at Tywin's bed, in order to turn Tyrion against Tywin and House Lannister. That connects with what Illyrio told Tyrion, that

  the road to casterly rock does not go through Dorne, my little friend. nor does it run beneath the wall. Yet there is such a road, i tell you

  Perhaps Varys and Illyrio wanted Tyrion to join Aegon and his cause all along. This means that Varys had predicted that Jaime would force him to help Tyrion. That is plausible. But did Varys knew about Tysha and Jaime's involvement?
  
• 
  The tunnel to Chataya's could have easily been used by Jon Arryn, or even Maegor, he was notorious for constructing hidden tunnels anyway. On the other hand there is the question why didn't Tywin remarried after Jaime became KG? This way he could have more heirs.