R+L=J v.34

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1, The woman is alive and married, somehow Jon was kept a secret from her husband and if it went out it would affect her marriage

2, Jon's mother is a Targ

3, Ned doesn't have balls to acknowledge he raped someone, not that it fits with his character

1. That's a good reason to keep it from the public, but I think this is still an instance where telling Jon is still feasible.

2. Which female Targ would or could Jon's mother be?

3. You're right, it doesn't fit Ned's character.

Ned is denying Jon the very basic right to know who his mother is. That requires some pretty effing extraordinary mitigating circumstances.

[The guy from the Vale]

Besides Jon's mother being Lyanna, keeping it secret would also make sense in following cases:

1, The woman is alive and married, somehow Jon was kept a secret from her husband and if it went out it would affect her marriage

2, Jon's mother is a Targ

3, Ned doesn't have balls to acknowledge he raped someone, not that it fits with his character

Though I'm personally 99% sure Jon is Rhaegar§s.

2) can be excluded because there was only one known female Targ of an appropriate age around that time: Queen Rhaella. And we do know she was pregnant during the time in question - but her pregnancy began shortly before Jon was born, and we know who her child was, so 2) can be considered impossible for all intents and purposes.

[SFDanny]

My test question lives!! :D

Basically, my test question, whenever anyone says "So-and-So is Jon's mother," is, "What is it about this woman that makes it dangerous or impractical to tell Jon her identity?" If the answer is, "Um nothing," then she's not Jon's mother. Both Ashara and Wylla fail this test, by the way.

Hate to pop your bubble here, but that question has been asked from before I got here. It's a good question, and there are answers to it, but they usually involve a huge change in Ned Stark's character. For instance, Ned is just ashamed of sleeping with a commoner. He refuses to tell either Cat or Jon because he is too prideful. Of course, then one has to ask why the hell did he bring Jon home if he felt that way. It goes on and on and the only way you get there, imho, is by turning Ned Stark into an unimaginable selfish, self centered, douche bag of a man who tortures his wife and son for fourteen years for his own egoistic reasons. Not the Ned I know. Besides not being the character I read, it also has absolutely nothing from the books that points in this direction.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Hate to pop your bubble here, but that question has been asked from before I got here.

I think you're taking this too seriously.

[Twinslayer]

Ned is denying Jon the very basic right to know who his mother is. That requires some pretty effing extraordinary mitigating circumstances.

I am kind of curious -- why do you think that a bastard has a "basic right to know who his mother is?" I ask because it is established in one of Cat's first POVs that bastards have virtually no rights. Most noble men who have bastards make some provision for them but, according to Cat, Ned has gone far beyond the call of duty by taking Jon in and having him raised in a noble house. This seems to be borne out by the way other nobles treat their bastards -- Robert, Roose, etc. So shouldn't we think that, if Ned owes Jon anything, he has paid this debt a thousand times over already?

[SFDanny]

I think you're taking this too seriously.

Nah! Not really. But the old debates keep coming back. Just a good thing to know how old some of these debates are. Or perhaps not.

[tenchi]

For everyone that gives the theory that Dayne, Whent, and Hightower are at the tower of joy to make sure Rhaegar goes to the trident that simply doesn't make sense. For one Arevys in his paranoid state would not have a clear Rhaegar supporter holding Lyanna hostage especially when the Dayne's home Starfall is so close.

I think instead of asking why they are there, we might need to ask if they were there all along. We can probably guess that Dayne was but what about Hightower and Whent. Did they come from some other part of Westerios or were 3 KGs always there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

For everyone that gives the theory that Dayne, Whent, and Hightower are at the tower of joy to make sure Rhaegar goes to the trident that simply doesn't make sense.

... Has anyone actually argued this? Because I've never seen it before.

[tenchi]

Jon is the only bastard that we know of so far that doesn't at least know their mother (thats not still an infant). For example Ramsey was raised by his and so weren't Robert's bastards the only one that was taken from his mother was Eddard Storm and that was to be raised by his uncle.

In fact even though Ned takes Jon in, it becomes almost cruel for him not to know his mother. Given Cats attiude towards him and being the kind of guy Ned is why would he put Jon through this unless his mother was dead already.

[corbon]

For everyone that gives the theory that Dayne, Whent, and Hightower are at the tower of joy to make sure Rhaegar goes to the trident that simply doesn't make sense. For one Arevys in his paranoid state would not have a clear Rhaegar supporter holding Lyanna hostage especially when the Dayne's home Starfall is so close.

I think instead of asking why they are there, we might need to ask if they were there all along. We can probably guess that Dayne was but what about Hightower and Whent. Did they come from some other part of Westerios or were 3 KGs always there.

You misunderstand the theory.

Its not that they are there to ensure he goes to the trident, its that possibly some of them went there to find him and bring him back to KL to take charge, as Aerys demanded.

We know Hightower was in KL when Brandon was executed.

We know after the Battle of the Bells Aerys called for Rhaegar to come back and take command.

We next see Hightower where we believe Rhaegar was, while Rhaegar has mysteriously returned to KL.

Its pretty simply deduction to guess that Hightower went and found Rhaegar in order to inform him of Aerys' command for Rhaegar to return and take charge.

That they stay there would then be to do with Rhaegar taking comand and issuing them new instructions that don't conflict with their orders or their vows, ie, stay here and protect my helpless pregnant wife. But said orders only last so long as they are not superceded by the king's orders (fine, if he can't reach them to give new orders) or their original orders and vows (ie one of the KG must always be with the king)

[Twinslayer]

Jon is the only bastard that we know of so far that doesn't at least know their mother (thats not still an infant). For example Ramsey was raised by his and so weren't Robert's bastards the only one that was taken from his mother was Eddard Storm and that was to be raised by his uncle.

In fact even though Ned takes Jon in, it becomes almost cruel for him not to know his mother. Given Cats attiude towards him and being the kind of guy Ned is why would he put Jon through this unless his mother was dead already.

J

Jon is the only bastard we see raised by his father. But don't forget that we see other bastards raised by their mothers who do not know who their fathers are eg Gendry. (I think but I am not sure that Ramsay fell into this category for a long time also).

[Twinslayer]

My test question lives!! :D

Basically, my test question, whenever anyone says "So-and-So is Jon's mother," is, "What is it about this woman that makes it dangerous or impractical to tell Jon her identity?" If the answer is, "Um nothing," then she's not Jon's mother. Both Ashara and Wylla fail t

his testy.

So you are the author of this question! Well met.

I would like to suggest an answer but before I do let me suggest that the question may have a false premise.

The identity of Jon's mother is obviously dangerous if it is Lyanna. But let us suppose for a moment it might be Wylla.

In that case the question should be: what incentive does Ned have to keep this secret from his family.

I say "from his family" because he is not keeping it secret from everyone. He has told Robert. We know from Ned Dayne that the Daynes know and that Ned Dayne thinks it is common knowledge.

So why would Ned not talk about it to his family?

First as I noted above he owes Jon nothing. He has done more for Jon than almost any other noble has done for a bastard already.

Second he has told his wife and his best friend that he does not want to talk about it. They accept this and it seems reasonable to me.

But there is another factor here. We know Cat has spent 15 years punishing Ned for Jon's very existence.

What if he did not want her to know that after the war he brought his mistress home with him? Heck we know Robb felt so bad about a one night stand he married the girl. What if Wylla said "I know I cannot keep him but at least let me nurse him?"

All the clues for this are there as I noted in another thread.

First Ned tells Robert that the mother was Wylla.

Then we learn from Cat that when she and Robb first arrived at Winterfell Jon Snow was there with his wet nurse.

Then we learn from Ned Dayne that Wylla was a wet nurse.

You can just see Ned now. Earnestly hoping Cat will be cool about it. Despising that is not going to happen. Telling Wylla to wean him quick and then go. But promising to treat him.well.

[Twinslayer]

Having trouble with the edit function. In my last post "Despising" should be "Realising".

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So you are the author of this question! Well met.

I would like to suggest an answer but before I do let me suggest that the question may have a false premise.

The identity of Jon's mother is obviously dangerous if it is Lyanna. But let us suppose for a moment it might be Wylla.

In that case the question should be: what incentive does Ned have to keep this secret from his family.

I say "from his family" because he is not keeping it secret from everyone. He has told Robert. We know from Ned Dayne that the Daynes know and that Ned Dayne thinks it is common knowledge.

So why would Ned not talk about it to his family?

First as I noted above he owes Jon nothing. He has done more for Jon than almost any other noble has done for a bastard already.

Second he has told his wife and his best friend that he does not want to talk about it. They accept this and it seems reasonable to me.

But there is another factor here. We know Cat has spent 15 years punishing Ned for Jon's very existence.

What if he did not want her to know that after the war he brought his mistress home with him? Heck we know Robb felt so bad about a one night stand he married the girl. What if Wylla said "I know I cannot keep him but at least let me nurse him?"

All the clues for this are there as I noted in another thread.

First Ned tells Robert that the mother was Wylla.

Then we learn from Cat that when she.and Robb.first arrived at Wimterfell Jon Snow was there with his wet nurse.

Then we learn from Ned Dayne that Wylla was a wet nurse.

You can just see Ned now. Earnestly hoping Cat will be cool about it. Despising that is not going to happen. Telling Wylla to wean him quick and then go. But promising to treat him.well.

I don't see anything suggesting that Wylla nursed Jon both in Dorne and in Winterfell. I have always assumed that the wetnurse he had when Catelyn arrived was another woman entirely. Edric Dayne was also nursed by Wylla, so if she was also Jon's nurse in Winterfell, she would've had to have gone all the way up to Winterfell and then come all the way back. I don't see it; I think she never left Dorne and Ned installed a different woman to nurse Jon when he brought him home.

And it still doesn't explain why Ned can't or shouldn't or won't tell Jon the truth. Of course he had to tell Robert something; Robert is the king and Ned would have to explain where this baby came from.

I also used "impractical" in addition to the word "dangerous." I see absolutely nothing about Wylla (or Ashara, for that matter) that should prevent Ned from at least telling Jon about his mother.

[Twinslayer]

Who do you suppose wet nursed Jon from Dorne to Winterfell if it was not Wylla?

And I have always wondered why would Ned be answerable to his bastard? Ned is the guy who sees a black cloak south of the Wall and swings Ice without asking any questions.

Whose older brother had no problem bedding noble ladies. Whose younger brother told Jon to go off and father a few bastards of his own before joining the Watch.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Who do you suppose wet nursed Jon from Dorne to Winterfell?

I assume they took a ship from Starfall to the North and then had a quick overland route to Winterfell (that's how they beat Catelyn home; she was traveling over land). They could have used animal milk or hired a more mobile wet nurse. If Wylla is in Starfall's employment, she's not really Ned's to take anywhere.

And why would Ned be answerable to his bastard in this way? Ned is the guy who sees a black cloak south of the Wall and swings Ice without asking any questions.

This isn't about Ned being answerable. It's about telling a child who his mother is. And Ned's guilt when thinking about Jon and how he should tell him these things pretty blatantly suggests that Ned withholding this information has a deeper cause than "I'm Lord Stark and don't owe you shit." Nothing from Ned's thoughts, anywhere at all, suggests that he has that sort of attitude toward Jon. Nothing. If anything, the tone is, "I want to tell you but can't."

Whose older brother had no problem bedding noble ladies. Whose younger brother told Jon to go off and father a few bastards of his own before joining the Watch.

Because Ned must be completely 100% like both of his brothers, right? The overwhelming point about Brandon and Ned is that they're completely different people.

I have the distinct feeling that I'm completely wasting my time with this, but whatever.

[Twinslayer]

Just saw your note on "impractical." Fair enough.

Iguess I would say it is impractical.to tell Cat that not only is my bastard here but would you like to meet his mother?

But rather than "impractical" I would sugggest "awkward." What would make it awkward for Ned to have the name of his mistress become common knowledge in the North and why was it okay with him that her name was known in the South?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just saw your note on "impractical." Fair enough.

Iguess I would say it is impractical.to tell Cat that not only is my bastard here but would you like to meet his mother?

Assuming that Wylla was ever even in Winterfell. I see nothing to support this, as I've already said.

But rather than "impractical" I would sugggest "awkward." What would make it awkward for Ned to have the name of his mistress become common knowledge in the North and why was it okay with him that her name was known in the South?

Ned used Wylla as a cover in the South because people would obviously want to know who Jon's mother was. That's it. Wylla's a cover story. Given the North's isolation from the South, it's likely that the Wylla rumor never propagated up there, nor would it have any reason to given Ned's authority there. He can prevent people from rumormongering in his home turf, but not in the South.

[Twinslayer]

I think that if Wylla had a child by Ned. Ned just conquered half the kingdom. Ned showed up at Starfall and said " I am taking my bastard home with me and I want his mother to nurse him on the voyage home. I will send her back when I am done with her. And oh here is Dawn." The Daynes probably would have been cool with it. Also I think Ned took the overland route because he stopped in KL to reconcile with Robert over their shared grief over Lyanna.

[Twinslayer]

Assuming that Wylla was ever even in Winterfell. I see nothing to support this, as I've already said.

Ned used Wylla as a cover in the South because people would obviously want to know who Jon's mother was. That's it. Wylla's a cover story. Given the North's isolation from the South, it's likely that the Wylla rumor never propagated up there, nor would it have any reason to given Ned's authority there. He can prevent people from rumormongering in his home turf

Okay. Do you think the connection between Cat specifying that when she got to WF the first time Jon was there with his wetnurse and Ned Dayne telling us that Wylla was a wetnuse is just a coincidence? a red herring? or a clue? or something else altogether?