R+L=J v.34

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think that if Wylla had a child by Ned. Ned just conquered half the kingdom. Ned showed up at Starfall and said " I am taking my bastard home with me and I want his mother to nurse him on the voyage home. I will send her back when I am done with her. And oh here is Dawn." The Daynes probably would have been cool with it. Also I think Ned took the overland route because he stopped in KL to reconcile with Robert over their shared grief over Lyanna.

I don't think there was anything romantic between Ned and Wylla whatsoever. I think that Arthur Dayne ordered Wylla (which as a Dayne, he could feasibly do) to come to the Tower of Joy as a maid/midwife/wet nurse, and she's the one who delivered Jon and nursed him, and the person who, with Howland, found Ned with Lyanna's body. I think Wylla and Ned came up with the cover story, wherein Wylla would be Jon's mother, officially, and would corroborate the story for Jon's safety. Ned then went back North with Jon and hired an entirely new lady to be his wet nurse (this may sound crazy, but I understand that there is probably more than one lactating woman in Westeros at any given time).

Funny how Ned never really ponders on his so-called "mistress" (or even on Ashara, for that matter), eh? The only time Wylla even slips in at all is when Ned lies to Robert about her, verbally. But he sure as hell thinks about his sister an awful lot.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Okay. Do you think the connection between Cat specifying that when she got to WF the first time Jon was there with his wetnurse and Ned Dayne telling us that Wylla was a wetnuse is just a coincidence? a red herring? or a clue? or something else altogether?

I think that Jon was still a young baby then and connected young babies have wet nurses. It might also have something to do with the fact that wet nurses are something of a societal luxury; rich women can afford to hire other women to nurse for them, and wealthy babies (or those with connections, like Mance's baby) have their own wet nurses. So in Catelyn's eyes, the fact that Jon is up there and has his own wet nurse — a servant whose only job is to care for this bastard baby — cements Jon's place in the household and also demonstrates Jon's importance to Ned, that he made the effort to hire help to care for this kid and effectively gave him his own "staff." I think it's about Jon's relatively elevated place in the household and has nothing to do with Wylla.

[Ygrain]

Who do you suppose wet nursed Jon from Dorne to Winterfell if it was not Wylla?

And I have always wondered why would Ned be answerable to his bastard? Ned is the guy who sees a black cloak south of the Wall and swings Ice without asking any questions.

Whose older brother had no problem bedding noble ladies. Whose younger brother told Jon to go off and father a few bastards of his own before joining the Watch.

Anyone able to provide milk and paid for the job.

There is one very good reason why the name Wylla must not sound anywhere around WInterfell - if Wylla is from Dorne, the timeline for her to become Jon's mother doesn't fit, and every single man who had been with Ned during the Rebellion knows when Ned went to Dorne.

But he does ask questions - only he doesn't learn a thing from Gared. Also, please do not make it as if he did such a thing lightly, we know he didn't.

Okay. Do you think the connection between Cat specifying that when she got to WF the first time Jon was there with his wetnurse and Ned Dayne telling us that Wylla was a wetnuse is just a coincidence? a red herring? or a clue? or something else altogether?

Why, if she came Winterfell still nursing Robb and Jon was slightly younger, someone had to be nursing him, as well.

I think that if Wylla had a child by Ned. Ned just conquered half the kingdom. Ned showed up at Starfall and said " I am taking my bastard home with me and I want his mother to nurse him on the voyage home. I will send her back when I am done with her. And oh here is Dawn." The Daynes probably would have been cool with it. Also I think Ned took the overland route because he stopped in KL to reconcile with Robert over their shared grief over Lyanna.

It doesn't really matter which route Ned took, there was HR who was already on the secret and could have been dispatched to the north separately.

[Twinslayer]

Interesting AM. That may have added force in light of the fact that Cat says she nursed Robb herself.

I should probably clarify that I agree with your conclusion: Jon is probably the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. The simplest and most obvious reason I say this is that Robert claims Rhaegar took Lyanna which raises the question " did she get pregnant." Then she has a "bed of blood." So where is the kid? There is only one candidate who seems to fit.

However what I am disputing is the suggestion that GRRM has done a bad job suggesting an alternative explanation. Because the question: why would Ned conceal that Wylla was the mother? has a number of good answers.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

However what I am disputing is the suggestion that GRRM has done a bad job suggesting an alternative explanation. Because the question: why would Ned conceal that Wylla was the mother? has a number of good answers.

I don't think he's done a "bad job." I just think that most casual readers take GRRM's word for it and don't think too deeply about the nitty gritty. I doubt many of them look at timelines or ponder it all that much. Most of them probably think that Wylla IS Jon's mother, because that's what they were told. In that case, it's not about GRRM doing a "bad job," it's about readers whose examination of the books doesn't run deep enough for them to dig up more under-the-radar alternatives.

And I still don't see where Ned has any reason to conceal from Jon that his mother is a Starfall servant.

[Twinslayer]

And I still don't see where Ned has any reason to conceal from Jon that his mother is a Starfall servant.

I am suggesting that it is reasonable to suppose that Ned is concealing from Cat that the mother was Wylla who got to WF before Cat. And that Ned was under no obligation to tell his bastard something he did not want to tell his wife and which he did not want to get back to her (and which we have no evidence Jon ever even asked).

[Dragonfish]

I am suggesting that it is reasonable to suppose that Ned is concealing from Cat that the mother was Wylla who got to WF before Cat. And that Ned was under no obligation to tell his bastard something he did not want to tell his wife and which he did not want to get back to her (and which we have no evidence Jon ever even asked).

He was also under no obligation to raise Jon as his own, as you have repeatedly pointed out. So why are you arguing that it's reasonable for Ned not to do something that is right, simply because he has no obligation to? That is simply out of character for him.

[Twinslayer]

Is it an issue of right or wrong in Westeros for a custodial parent of a bastard to tel the child who the other parent was? Gendry's mother did not do it. And no one seems to have criticized Ned for this. Indeed to the best of my recollection even Jon never thinks "Lord Stark should have told me who my mother was."

No I think it is reasonable to suppose that Ned had no obligation to explain this to Jon and Jon should just be grateful that he was treated better than most other bastards.

[Dragonfish]

Is it an issue of right or wrong in Westeros for a custodial parent of a bastard to tel the child who the other parent was? Gendry's mother did not do it. And no one seems to have criticized Ned for this. Indeed to the best of my recollection even Jon never thinks "Lord Stark should have told me who my mother was."

It is the decent thing to do, just as it was the decent thing to do when Ned took Jon into his own household.

No I think it is reasonable to suppose that Ned had no obligation to explain this to Jon and Jon should just be grateful that he was treated better than most other bastards.

No, based on how most men treat their bastards, Ned was under no obligation to tell Jon anything. But as established by Cat, Ned was not like most men, and he did not treat his bastard like most men did. That is why your argument fails.

[corbon]

Also I think Ned took the overland route because he stopped in KL to reconcile with Robert over their shared grief over Lyanna.

While I disagree with Apple Martini about it not being the same Wylla (but for both of us I am sure this is just a minor and not particularly important part of the theory) it seems unlikely Wylla ever stopped with Ned in KL as Robert clearly never met her. He complains that Ned never even told him what she looked like.

So I think Wylla and Jon were sent direct to Winterfell by ship and Ned stopped by in KL without them. When Jon no longer needed a wetnurse Wylla was returned to Starfall.

I just don't see any reason why Ned wouldn't keep the same wetnurse that he found at the ToJ and used from ToJ to Starfall. Nor why Catelyn wouldnt have her sent 'home' as soon as practicable.

[Twinslayer]

Now Dragonfish. I mean this in the nicest possible way. What you just said is silly--you do not mean my suggestion fails. You mean you disagree with it.

But think about it for a minute. Jon occupies a space in Ned's household that is like Theon's position. He is sort of welcome sort of not.

In fact just look at Jon's decision to join the NW. Ned knows he is too young to make that decision and that the place is a hell hole. But he lets Jon do it to get Cat off his back.

[corbon]

There is one very good reason why the name Wylla must not sound anywhere around WInterfell - if Wylla is from Dorne, the timeline for her to become Jon's mother doesn't fit, and every single man who had been with Ned during the Rebellion knows when Ned went to Dorne.

Thats not a good reason. Commoners, especially camp followers, might come from anywhere. There is no reason Wylla would be tied down in Dorne around Jon's conception.

If any of Ned's men thought about Jon's conception they'd clearly have to assume some short tryst which they didn't know about (anything longer and one of them surely would have had an inkling), which leaves the woman as being basically anyone who is not well known enough to be widely recognised.

[Twinslayer]

While I disagree with Apple Martini about it not being the same Wylla (but for both of us I am sure this is just a minor and not particularly important part of the theory) it seems unlikely Wylla ever stopped with Ned in KL as Robert clearly never met her. He complains that Ned never even told him what she looked like.

So I think Wylla and Jon were sent direct to Winterfell by ship and Ned stopped by in KL without them. When Jon no longer needed a wetnurse Wylla was returned to Starfall.

I just don't see any reason why Ned wouldn't keep the same wetnurse that he found at the ToJ and used from ToJ to Starfall. Nor why Catelyn wouldnt have her sent 'home' as soon as practicable.

This is possible. I had not considered that Ned might have sent Jon and Wylla on ahead of him. But it might have made sense for him to have done that.

[Dragonfish]

Now Dragonfish. I mean this in the nicest possible way. What you just said is silly--you do not mean my suggestion fails. You mean you disagree with it.

No, I mean it fails. As in, it logically fails. The conclusion does not follow from the premise, due to a faulty intervening assumption. You're arguing that Ned wouldn't tell Jon anything because most other men wouldn't, which completely ignores the established fact that Ned does not treat his bastard like most other men would.

But think about it for a minute. Jon occupies a space in Ned's household that is like Theon's position. He is sort of welcome sort of not.

Uh, no, not even close. Theon was a hostage, and he remembers Ned always kept him at a distance precisely because he knew he may one day be forced to execute him. In contrast, Ned was always warm to Jon. The only person who made Jon feel unwelcome was Cat, but this was not something Ned desired.

In fact just look at Jon's decision to join the NW. Ned knows he is too young to make that decision and that the place is a hell hole. But he lets Jon do it to get Cat off his back.

That's a pretty shallow characterization of Ned's decision here. Ned was put into an unexpected bind. He did not foresee that he would have to leave Winterfell, nor did he foresee that Cat would insist that Jon could not stay once he was gone. He did everything he could to dissuade her from this stance, but she wouldn't budge. Even when Luwin mentioned that Jon wanted to join the Night's Watch, he still took the time to contemplate the idea before assenting to it. This was clearly a decision he did not take lightly, and your statement that he "lets Jon do it to get Cat off his back" simply does not do this scene justice, in my opinion.

[Ygrain]

Is it an issue of right or wrong in Westeros for a custodial parent of a bastard to tel the child who the other parent was? Gendry's mother did not do it. And no one seems to have criticized Ned for this. Indeed to the best of my recollection even Jon never thinks "Lord Stark should have told me who my mother was."

No I think it is reasonable to suppose that Ned had no obligation to explain this to Jon and Jon should just be grateful that he was treated better than most other bastards.

But he thinks with quite some bitterness that Ned wouldn't even say her name and concludes from it that there must have been something shameful about it. Sorry but I think you're missing the implications here again. Jon is very much bothered by Ned's silence.

Thats not a good reason. Commoners, especially camp followers, might come from anywhere. There is no reason Wylla would be tied down in Dorne around Jon's conception.

If any of Ned's men thought about Jon's conception they'd clearly have to assume some short tryst which they didn't know about (anything longer and one of them surely would have had an inkling), which leaves the woman as being basically anyone who is not well known enough to be widely recognised.

Actually, I can't recall seeing many Dornish outside Dorne, and unless by trade, commoners don't travel that much. If the respectable Dornishwoman Wylla at Winterfell claimed to be Jon's mother, people would inevitably ask "wow, Dorne is a pretty way off, so how come you met Lord Eddard during the war?" If she was a mere campfollower, it would raise even more questions - "campfollower" is basically a prostitute, so except the whole "Lord Eddard is not the kind of man who lies with whores", which is a spot-on, there is this issue of bringing this sort of woman into your household.

Also, taking a child from its mother is bad enough; letting her nurse the child and strengthen the bond before you send her away is exceedingly cruel, both to her and to the child, and I don't see Ned, with his compassion to children, doing this.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Actually, I can't recall seeing many Dornish outside Dorne, and unless by trade, commoners don't travel that much. If the respectable Dornishwoman Wylla at Winterfell claimed to be Jon's mother, people would inevitably ask "wow, Dorne is a pretty way off, so how come you met Lord Eddard during the war?" If she was a mere campfollower, it would raise even more questions - "campfollower" is basically a prostitute, so except the whole "Lord Eddard is not the kind of man who lies with whores", which is a spot-on, there is this issue of bringing this sort of woman into your household.

Also, taking a child from its mother is bad enough; letting her nurse the child and strengthen the bond before you send her away is exceedingly cruel, both to her and to the child, and I don't see Ned, with his compassion to children, doing this.

^ I think this is a huge point. If Ned came back from the war with a southern women, especially one all the way from Dorne, it'd cause a ton of questions as to who she was and why Ned brought a woman so far to do this task that any number of northern women could just as easily do. Catelyn just notes a "wet nurse," not a Dornish wet nurse or a woman who had come back from the war with Ned. I get the impression that the Dornish are distinct enough that it'd be clear to a northerner that this wet nurse was not a local (and I doubt Wylla would be well suited to a northern climate). Unlike Ashara, I see no evidence that Wylla's identity is even on the radar in the North (as opposed to the South, or at least, Robert), which seems HIGHLY unlikely if Wylla had in fact spent time there to nurse Jon.

No, there was nothing romantic between Ned and Wylla, and Wylla, though I believe she nursed Jon very early in his life, was never in Winterfell.

[Sworn Shield]

IIRC Dayne's are the Stoney Dornish that have First Men and Andal features and wouldn't look like the traditional image of a dornish person, for example a Martell.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

IIRC Dayne's are the Stoney Dornish that have First Men and Andal features and wouldn't look like the traditional image of a dornish person, for example a Martell.

Wylla isn't a Dayne. She works for the Daynes. We don't actually know what she looks like, but it wouldn't take an idiot to see her in Winterfell and figure out that she's not from the area.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Ned wouldn't take Wylla either way. She might have traveled with them for awhile but Ned would have hired a Northern woman to watch him at Winterfell it would lead to to many questions to not have someone he can provide background on. Jon's mother or not, someone the 'townfolk' don't know would raise rumors.

[sillent]

You guys! Obviously Ned was incredibly sad over his sisters death and so took comfort in Wylla and ended up with Jon..... because then it would be forshadowing Robb feeling upset over Ned (and Bran & Rickon) dying and so taking comfort in Jeyne (who is gonna have baby Jon) who is going North with the Blackfish.

Also, if you're being nice to your bastard.. youre gonna be that level of 'nice' across the spectrum. It's not like Ned was like "I would tell you about your mother Jon, but I used all my nice points on your upbringing- so maybe when I gain levels I'll tell you?"