R+L=J v.34

[dragontamer]

It isn't realistic for Ned who is so firm about secrecy when it comes to Jon, to bring Wylla to WF. Even if the Daynes knew and trusted her, Ned didn't, so how could he be sure that he could ensure her silence? Bringing her with him was highly risky and an unnecessary risk to take.

Regarding the bond between a wet nurse and a child I'll have to admit that must be strong but Wylla has already nursed at least two different children so it's kind like an occupation for her.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Because Jon's age wouldn't fit?

Barristan says that Ashara looked to a Stark at the tourney when she was dishonoured, i.e. she got impregnated at Harrenhall, and she became unfit as soon as the pregnancy became known. As for not being nailed down to the floor of Starfall - well, there is one particular place where she could have very possibly gone and which GRRM definitely wouldn't mention: ToJ, to keep company to Lyanna.

1. Just because Barristan says something doesn't make it true. He may not lie it's just his interpretation of it.

2. Being 'dishonoured' doesn't mean she became preganant

3. Ashara would be a very strange choice to keep Lyanna company. She was friends with Elia. Who I'm sure was chuffed to pieces to find her husband run off with another woman.

4. Far more likely he's hinting at her leaving Kings Landing and going else where

But he's not going the same direction: he's going to KL, to report Lyanna's death to Robert, and that's where he can't be seen with a newborn, or else people might start putting two and two together.

And sorry but you have been explained multiple times why it had to be Ned personally who returned Dawn: he killed Arthur and it was his and solely his burden to tell the woman he loved that he killed her brother.

Plenty of ways to get to KL and it's not even in the same direction. The ToJ is in the Red Mountains in Princes Pass. To ride to KL you go to the Stormlands, the exact opposite direction to Starfall. Equally you could find ports on the Sea of Dorne that would allow you to sail there far easier than getting a ship from Starfall.

First off please try not to be so condescending. You've told me that you believe that Ned rode there to return Dawn as he killed Arthur and it was his and solely his burden to tell the woman he loved that he killed her brother. I don't agree that this is a valid reason

1. Nothing says it was Ned that killed Arthur Dayne just that he died whilst fighting Ned and his companions. Personally my money is on Howland Reed, being that he saved Ned's life whilst there, Ned said Dayne would have killed him if not for Reed and Dayne, by all accounts, was a suprior swordsman to Ned.

2. Sorry Ned has been given a life changing responsibility and secret. Something that he's willing to betray his honour to his wife, King and best friend for but he still feels enough duty to put this at risk to return a sword? Even to someone he loves? Sorry I don't buy it, makes no sense. It acts as a good excuse but there has to be some other reason to go out of his way and take the risk.

3. His ultimate burden and responsibility now lies with the secret Lyanna gave him. As we've seen with his confession in KL Ned is willing to sacrifice his honour for the greater good, if only in extreme circumstances, the duty of returning the sword and telling Ashara would have been sacrificed and the duty given to Reed, in my opinion, if this was the sole reason for going there.

Equally unless you believe that Ashara actually committed suicide, seems pretty unlikely to me, the R+L=J theory requires some other explanation as to why she ran off. The theory that Jon's mum is Ashara, who met with Ned part way through the rebellion, possibly to return Ice (not a given I just like the imagery of a sword being returned for a sword) but had to run to Essos to hide R+L's real child (my belief is that it's Aegon but could be someone else) covers a lot of other areas that the R+L=J theory draws a blank on, or needs an additional piece of explanation/speculation on or comes up with an explanation that isn't that plausible for (as in Ned genuinely felt so guilty at killing Arthur Dayne that he decided to risk the biggest secret he's ever been given to return a sword to a woman he hasn't seen for over a year).

You're obviously deeply passionate about the R+L=J theory and we're never going to agree but there are some pretty big holes in the theory that can only get filled in, and let's hope for all our sakes they do in the coming books, with addtional information. It's not all there and there are other, I'd say more plausible, theories as to what exactly happened.

[The guy from the Vale]

1. Just because Barristan says something doesn't make it true. He may not lie it's just his interpretation of it.

2. Being 'dishonoured' doesn't mean she became preganant

3. Ashara would be a very strange choice to keep Lyanna company. She was friends with Elia. Who I'm sure was chuffed to pieces to find her husband run off with another woman.

4. Far more likely he's hinting at her leaving Kings Landing and going else where

1) Agreed. Still, Harrenhal is the only place we know of where Ned might possibly have impregnated Ashara. We have no other mention of these two meeting until Ned returned from the ToJ.

2) Agreed.

3) You are assuming Elia was angry at Rhaegar for running away with Lyanna. But we simply don't know that, and since Rhaegar and Elia were not in love, I'm not so sure jealousy would play into this. Add to this the practice of Targaryen polygamy and the fact that Elia couldn't have any more children, and your assumption becomes quite shaky - possible, but by no means assured.

4) Possible, although we have no idea where that might be.

Plenty of ways to get to KL and it's not even in the same direction. The ToJ is in the Red Mountains in Princes Pass. To ride to KL you go to the Stormlands, the exact opposite direction to Starfall. Equally you could find ports on the Sea of Dorne that would allow you to sail there far easier than getting a ship from Starfall.

First off please try not to be so condescending. You've told me that you believe that Ned rode there to return Dawn as he killed Arthur and it was his and solely his burden to tell the woman he loved that he killed her brother. I don't agree that this is a valid reason

1. Nothing says it was Ned that killed Arthur Dayne just that he died whilst fighting Ned and his companions. Personally my money is on Howland Reed, being that he saved Ned's life whilst there, Ned said Dayne would have killed him if not for Reed and Dayne, by all accounts, was a suprior swordsman to Ned.

2. Sorry Ned has been given a life changing responsibility and secret. Something that he's willing to betray his honour to his wife, King and best friend for but he still feels enough duty to put this at risk to return a sword? Even to someone he loves? Sorry I don't buy it, makes no sense. It acts as a good excuse but there has to be some other reason to go out of his way and take the risk.

3. His ultimate burden and responsibility now lies with the secret Lyanna gave him. As we've seen with his confession in KL Ned is willing to sacrifice his honour for the greater good, if only in extreme circumstances, the duty of returning the sword and telling Ashara would have been sacrificed and the duty given to Reed, in my opinion, if this was the sole reason for going there.

Equally unless you believe that Ashara actually committed suicide, seems pretty unlikely to me, the R+L=J theory requires some other explanation as to why she ran off. The theory that Jon's mum is Ashara, who met with Ned part way through the rebellion, possibly to return Ice (not a given I just like the imagery of a sword being returned for a sword) but had to run to Essos to hide R+L's real child (my belief is that it's Aegon but could be someone else) covers a lot of other areas that the R+L=J theory draws a blank on, or needs an additional piece of explanation/speculation on or comes up with an explanation that isn't that plausible for (as in Ned genuinely felt so guilty at killing Arthur Dayne that he decided to risk the biggest secret he's ever been given to return a sword to a woman he hasn't seen for over a year).

You're obviously deeply passionate about the R+L=J theory and we're never going to agree but there are some pretty big holes in the theory that can only get filled in, and let's hope for all our sakes they do in the coming books, with addtional information. It's not all there and there are other, I'd say more plausible, theories as to what exactly happened.

1) Catelyn hears rumours Ned killed Arthur Dayne in single combat. That's probably untrue, but Ned also remembers that the fight at the ToJ boiled down to himself and Howland Reed against Arthur Dayne. We can speculate for years until we get more specifics about that particular battle.

2) Yes. It's not any sword, it's a family sword. Also, it's quite possible Ned needed some support, and with the Daynes most probably already knowing of Lyanna's pregnancy, they are the ones he can go to first.

3) That's your opinion. It's simply not widely shared. And, again, Ned might heve needed support from someone who wouldn't ask questions (or would know the answer to these questions anyway). The Daynes were quite important for Ned in this way. Ned also needed a cover for having the baby with him, and Ashara might have been part of that.

As for Ashara running off in the context of R+L=J, I have one possible explanation: Ned couldn't know if Jon would have Targaryen features or not. Since the Daynes have pseudo-Valyrian features and most likely knew of Lyanna's pregnancy, Ned came to them and asked Ashara to cover as Jon's mother. He wouldn't officially name her as such unless Jon turned out to be silver-blonde and purple-eyed. They would however stage a show for Ned's bannermen so Ned could claim Jon as his own. However, Ned couldn't explain why he would not leave Jon with the Daynes in this arrangement, so Ashara had to feign her suicide.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

3) You are assuming Elia was angry at Rhaegar for running away with Lyanna. But we simply don't know that, and since Rhaegar and Elia were not in love, I'm not so sure jealousy would play into this. Add to this the practice of Targaryen polygamy and the fact that Elia couldn't have any more children, and your assumption becomes quite shaky - possible, but by no means assured.

Possible but it's a pretty understanding wife, even married for duty not love, who's fine with her husband running off with another woman to set up a love nest. Even with the old Targ polygamy practise. Equally Dorne is not exactly known for producing forgiving women.

1) Catelyn hears rumours Ned killed Arthur Dayne in single combat. That's probably untrue, but Ned also remembers that the fight at the ToJ boiled down to himself and Howland Reed against Arthur Dayne. We can speculate for years until we get more specifics about that particular battle.

True, but Ned does say that Howland saved him agaisnt Dayne and from all that's said Dayne was the better swordsman.

2) Yes. It's not any sword, it's a family sword. Also, it's quite possible Ned needed some support, and with the Daynes most probably already knowing of Lyanna's pregnancy, they are the ones he can go to first.

Possible he needed some support but that's speculation. You could equally say he'd want secracy, something I'd find more likely. Even a family sword can be returned by someone else.

3) That's your opinion. It's simply not widely shared. And, again, Ned might heve needed support from someone who wouldn't ask questions (or would know the answer to these questions anyway). The Daynes were quite important for Ned in this way. Ned also needed a cover for having the baby with him, and Ashara might have been part of that.

As for Ashara running off in the context of R+L=J, I have one possible explanation: Ned couldn't know if Jon would have Targaryen features or not. Since the Daynes have pseudo-Valyrian features and most likely knew of Lyanna's pregnancy, Ned came to them and asked Ashara to cover as Jon's mother. He wouldn't officially name her as such unless Jon turned out to be silver-blonde and purple-eyed. They would however stage a show for Ned's bannermen so Ned could claim Jon as his own. However, Ned couldn't explain why he would not leave Jon with the Daynes in this arrangement, so Ashara had to feign her suicide.

Widely shared or not seems more likely to me. If we all just accepted the most widely held opinion then they'd be no debate! :cool4:

The kids eyes, if not hair, would be showing at that point so you could see that he probably wasn't going to take after the targs. Plus Ashara running off as a possible cover just in case seems a bit much for a faked suicide.

[The guy from the Vale]

Possible but it's a pretty understanding wife, even married for duty not love, who's fine with her husband running off with another woman to set up a love nest. Even with the old Targ polygamy practise. Equally Dorne is not exactly known for producing forgiving women.

True, but Ned does say that Howland saved him agaisnt Dayne and from all that's said Dayne was the better swordsman.

Possible he needed some support but that's speculation. You could equally say he'd want secracy, something I'd find more likely. Even a family sword can be returned by someone else.

Widely shared or not seems more likely to me. If we all just accepted the most widely held opinion then they'd be no debate! :cool4:

The kids eyes, if not hair, would be showing at that point so you could see that he probably wasn't going to take after the targs. Plus Ashara running off as a possible cover just in case seems a bit much for a faked suicide.

A kid's eyes and hair do not show a few days after birth. A newborn's eye color usually darkens over the course of the first year, It might well be that Jon started out with purple eyes that darkened into his dark grey eyes. It's even harder to determine hair color at that age. Case in point: I was a blond child until the age of 6; now my hair is dark brown. My sister started out as a black-haired baby, she's a natural blonde now.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

A kid's eyes and hair do not show a few days after birth. A newborn's eye color usually darkens over the course of the first year, It might well be that Jon started out with purple eyes that darkened into his dark grey eyes. It's even harder to determine hair color at that age. Case in point: I was a blond child until the age of 6; now my hair is dark brown. My sister started out as a black-haired baby, she's a natural blonde now.

True but purple to grey is a fairly big change, more so than I'd say is likely or good for an excuse.

[Ygrain]

2. Being 'dishonoured' doesn't mean she became preganant

No but the way Barristan puts it, there is a direct connection between the two. Unless he had been fed utterly wrong information.

First off please try not to be so condescending. You've told me that you believe that Ned rode there to return Dawn as he killed Arthur and it was his and solely his burden to tell the woman he loved that he killed her brother. I don't agree that this is a valid reason

2. Sorry Ned has been given a life changing responsibility and secret. Something that he's willing to betray his honour to his wife, King and best friend for but he still feels enough duty to put this at risk to return a sword? Even to someone he loves? Sorry I don't buy it, makes no sense. It acts as a good excuse but there has to be some other reason to go out of his way and take the risk.

3. His ultimate burden and responsibility now lies with the secret Lyanna gave him. As we've seen with his confession in KL Ned is willing to sacrifice his honour for the greater good, if only in extreme circumstances, the duty of returning the sword and telling Ashara would have been sacrificed and the duty given to Reed, in my opinion, if this was the sole reason for going there.

You fail to grasp the meaning of family honour for someone like Ned, as well as the fact that he cannot abandon his other duties just because he received another, and though his promise to Lyanna on her deathbed stands probably highest, he cannot shirk the others as long as he can arrange not to. He never shirks from anything, and compromises his honour only twice: to protect Jon, and to protect Sansa - but only as much as he necessarily has to. He doesn't make up a cover story about a wench who sort of happened and then delivered the baby to him, even though such a lie would be perfectly justifiable and make things a lot easier. He lies only to the degree that cannot be avoided, and not a single bit more.

Also, consider this: to keep Jon's identity secret, Ned must not be seen returning from a search for his kidnapped sister with a newborn. At the same time, the newborn has to be transported somewhere - whether to Starfall and then by ship, or follow the inland route to Winterfell, doesn't really matter, as long as he is not seen with Lord Eddard, who in the context of Westerosi codes of honour, which he is known for maintaining rigidly, performs his duty towards the Daynes.

True but purple to grey is a fairly big change, more so than I'd say is likely or good for an excuse.

Dark grey. Deep purple to deep grey is no stretch. Oh, and BTW, my friend's sons were born with an equal undistinguishable shade of greyish brown, and one ended up blue-eyed and the other brown-eyed.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

No but the way Barristan puts it, there is a direct connection between the two. Unless he had been fed utterly wrong information.

Barristan also said the child was a girl that died in childbirth, Certainly a possibility but essentially he wasn't there and he certainly wasn't confident with the information. He may not have been fed completely wrong information but he certainly may of picked up false rumours. After all he thinks Jon is Ned's son so either way he has to be wrong on something.

He never shirks from anything, and compromises his honour only twice: to protect Jon, and to protect Sansa - but only as much as he necessarily has to. .

So he's willing to compromise his honour to protect Jon at one point but not whenit comes to returning Dawn? Sorry I don't buy it.

Dark grey. Deep purple to deep grey is no stretch. Oh, and BTW, my friend's sons were born with an equal undistinguishable shade of greyish brown, and one ended up blue-eyed and the other brown-eyed.

Yep I concede that the child may take on Targ traits later on but it's a bit extreme getting Ashara to fake her own death, just in case.

[The guy from the Vale]

Barristan also said the child was a girl that died in childbirth, Certainly a possibility but essentially he wasn't there and he certainly wasn't confident with the information. He may not have been fed completely wrong information but he certainly may of picked up false rumours. After all he thinks Jon is Ned's son so either way he has to be wrong on something.

So he's willing to compromise his honour to protect Jon at one point but not whenit comes to returning Dawn? Sorry I don't buy it.

Yep I concede that the child may take on Targ traits later on but it's a bit extreme getting Ashara to fake her own death, just in case.

Ned is willing to compromise his honour when the only alternative is not protecting Jon (or Sansa) at all. He's not willing to compromise his honour when it's possible to reconcile these two, even if it is harder.

And that's just one possibility why Ashara may have committed (or faked) suicide.

[Ygrain]

So he's willing to compromise his honour to protect Jon at one point but not whenit comes to returning Dawn? Sorry I don't buy it.

Because you somehow got into your head that protecting Jon and returning Dawn are mutually incompatible, which they are not. Really, I have no more to say to this.

[Lux in Tenebris]

True but purple to grey is a fairly big change, more so than I'd say is likely or good for an excuse.

Babies eyes change from blue or green to brown all the time as they get older, especially when one parent has a recessive blue/green gene and another has the dominant brown gene.

[Lux in Tenebris]

1. Just because Barristan says something doesn't make it true. He may not lie it's just his interpretation of it.

2. Being 'dishonoured' doesn't mean she became preganant

3. Ashara would be a very strange choice to keep Lyanna company. She was friends with Elia. Who I'm sure was chuffed to pieces to find her husband run off with another woman.

4. Far more likely he's hinting at her leaving Kings Landing and going else where

Plenty of ways to get to KL and it's not even in the same direction. The ToJ is in the Red Mountains in Princes Pass. To ride to KL you go to the Stormlands, the exact opposite direction to Starfall. Equally you could find ports on the Sea of Dorne that would allow you to sail there far easier than getting a ship from Starfall.

First off please try not to be so condescending. You've told me that you believe that Ned rode there to return Dawn as he killed Arthur and it was his and solely his burden to tell the woman he loved that he killed her brother. I don't agree that this is a valid reason

1. Nothing says it was Ned that killed Arthur Dayne just that he died whilst fighting Ned and his companions. Personally my money is on Howland Reed, being that he saved Ned's life whilst there, Ned said Dayne would have killed him if not for Reed and Dayne, by all accounts, was a suprior swordsman to Ned.

2. Sorry Ned has been given a life changing responsibility and secret. Something that he's willing to betray his honour to his wife, King and best friend for but he still feels enough duty to put this at risk to return a sword? Even to someone he loves? Sorry I don't buy it, makes no sense. It acts as a good excuse but there has to be some other reason to go out of his way and take the risk.

3. His ultimate burden and responsibility now lies with the secret Lyanna gave him. As we've seen with his confession in KL Ned is willing to sacrifice his honour for the greater good, if only in extreme circumstances, the duty of returning the sword and telling Ashara would have been sacrificed and the duty given to Reed, in my opinion, if this was the sole reason for going there.

Equally unless you believe that Ashara actually committed suicide, seems pretty unlikely to me, the R+L=J theory requires some other explanation as to why she ran off. The theory that Jon's mum is Ashara, who met with Ned part way through the rebellion, possibly to return Ice (not a given I just like the imagery of a sword being returned for a sword) but had to run to Essos to hide R+L's real child (my belief is that it's Aegon but could be someone else) covers a lot of other areas that the R+L=J theory draws a blank on, or needs an additional piece of explanation/speculation on or comes up with an explanation that isn't that plausible for (as in Ned genuinely felt so guilty at killing Arthur Dayne that he decided to risk the biggest secret he's ever been given to return a sword to a woman he hasn't seen for over a year).

You're obviously deeply passionate about the R+L=J theory and we're never going to agree but there are some pretty big holes in the theory that can only get filled in, and let's hope for all our sakes they do in the coming books, with addtional information. It's not all there and there are other, I'd say more plausible, theories as to what exactly happened.

Really struggling with this. So you think that baby Aegon was real, and was actually killed, and that Rhaegar had another child with Lyanna that is not Jon that no one knew about that Ned took to Ashara who he had a baby with and told her/she decided to take Rhaegar's real child with Lyanna (even though she was close with Elia) across the narrow sea to Essos. For someone trying to poke holes in the heavily implied R+L=J, that theory has no implications in the books and is pretty holey itself.

I have seen nothing in the text that implied that Ned felt guilty about killing Dayne, only that he had respect for him as a knight and a warrior.

[Twinslayer]

Ned is willing to compromise his honour when the only alternative is not protecting Jon (or Sansa) at all. He's not willing to compromise his honour when it's possible to reconcile these two, even if it is hard.

Didn't Ned also lie about ordering Cat to take Tyrion prisoner?

I never really understood why he felt the need to do that. Cat didn't need the help and it seems like it would have been easy to get caught in the lie.

Didn't he also change Robert's will without telling Robert?

I have wondered whether Ned's reputation for being "honorable" isn't a little overblown.

[Erudain]

He tells Jaime he ordered Tyrion taken captive to avoid retaliation against his family and house Stark men...basically Hands order = King's justice.

When he changes the will he already knows Cersei childs are bastards and that Bob is on his deathbed...he could tell him, make him curse, give him more troubles and die all the same. There were no witnesses in the room, even telling the King woudn't prevent Cersei from saying the will is a fake.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Almost every baby in real life starts out with blue eyes & they change as they get older. So it's likely that they didn't know if Jon's eyes would be grey or purple for a month or two. Ashara, I believe, was going to 'Aegon' anyway, & probably knew knew about Jon, so told Ned that she would let Ned use her as cover & that she would fake her suicide (with out telling him about Aegon of course) & might have worked out things with Wylla too. Then she goes off to become 'Lemore", giving Ned 2 needed cover stories for him to protect Jon with.

[Ice Turtle]

About Ashara being used as cover story if Jon had Targ features, I'm not sure it would have worked with what we know from ADwD. There were few people who knew Ashara had stillbirth. We don't know precise timeline but I think that it is possible that she simply couldn't be Jon's mother because she was already pregnant when Jon was conceived.

[MSUMC25]

I also think some of the guilt Ned felt towards Jon was that he constantly had to hide/ lie about Jon to Robert (his best friend) for the remainder of their lives. For a moral man like Ned this had to be a constant internal struggle. Made more difficult by the fact that he knew how much Robert loved Lyanna but did mention to Robert that he did not know Lyanna that well, and the fact that Lyanna may have actually loved Rhagaer would have made Robert's head explode.

I really hope at some point GRRM explains how the hell Howland Reed and Ned Stark killed Arthur Dayne. Not extremely important but would be cool to know.

Been a while since I read GOT Varys didn't take that letter from Ned did he?

[Lady Octarina]

Been a while since I read GOT Varys didn't take that letter from Ned did he?

We don't know. It is assumed that, since Varys revealed he would read whatever Ned wrote and use it for his own purposes, that Ned didn't write anything, or if he did write something, it wouldn't be anything important.

[Ice Turtle]

We don't know. It is assumed that, since Varys revealed he would read whatever Ned wrote and use it for his own purposes, that Ned didn't write anything, or if he did write something, it wouldn't be anything important.

Maybe it could have been important but not specific enough for Varys to understand. Or maybe it was personal. Something like:

1, To Howland: Tell Jon

2, To Jon: I'm sorry

3,To Cat: Love you.

But Varys blackmailed Ned into confessing treason and taking black so he probably thought he will have time to send the message later personally.

[Fire Eater]

Fireeater: reminder---in the War of the Roses, by which Martin sets some store, the colors were red and white. The other points are, I think, sufficient unto the end.

I know the War of the Roses inspiration, but blue roses specifically refer to those with royal blood instead of being a sigil for some noble or royal house.

We don't know. It is assumed that, since Varys revealed he would read whatever Ned wrote and use it for his own purposes, that Ned didn't write anything, or if he did write something, it wouldn't be anything important.

Ned was told that he was to take the black if he confessed to treason. He would go to Castle Black where Jon was, and he could tell him in person rather than risking others finding out through a letter.