R+L=J v.34

[Twinslayer]

Perhaps if they were staying in the same place, sure. But they weren't. And Wylla wasn't exactly Ned's to pick, I don't believe.

I cannot imagine that there is anything that would keep a nursing mother away from her child ifnshe had a choice.

I realize that GRRM is a man so he does not necessarily feel this the same way.

And I do not know what it would be like to nurse someone else's child.

But I have no difficulty thinking Wylla would make the trip north just like Gilly made the trip south

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I cannot imagine that thee is anything that would keep a nursing mother away from her child save force.

Except Wylla was not Jon's mother.

I realize that GRRM is a man so he does not necessarily feel this the same way.

And I do not know what it would be like to nurse someone else's child.

But I have no difficulty thinking Wylla would make the trip north just like Filly made the trip south

None of this is evidence.

Plenty of women nursed other women's children. That's what being a wetnurse is, and for a very long time it was a legitimate profession. But nursing a child does not make that child yours.

[Twinslayer]

Yes but the point is how often do you see a relay race of different women nursing a child from one end of the continent to the other? I cannot see a child just running smoothly from one to the next.

Nursing is a very powerful and very personal bond that is difficult to explain.

I am going to stop talking about this now.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes but the point is how often do you see a relay race of different women nursing a child from one end of the continent to the other? I cannot see a child just running smoothly from one to the next.

And how often does a northern lord pick up his dead sister's infant son in a desert climate and then take said baby to virtually the other end of the continent? You can't apply "normal conditions" to Jon's nursing because Jon's circumstances weren't normal.

Nursing is a very powerful and very personal bond that is difficult to explain.

Being a woman, I'm pretty sure I don't need any lectures on that, thanks.

I am going to stop talking about this now.

Well I feel like I've wasted much time arguing with you, about this and pretty much everything else, so you might as well.

[Twinslayer]

On a different topic aren't you the one who told me the other day that Mormont's raven was staring at Jon Snow while he was hopping around saying "King"? My version of ACOK is not in English but I am pretty sure (based on the use of pronouns) that it was Mormont staring at Jon. Have you had a chance to check that?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

On a different topic aren't you the one who told me the other day that Mormont's raven was staring at Jon Snow while he was hopping around saying "King"? My version of AGOT is not in English but I am pretty sure (based on the use of pronouns) that it was Mormont staring at Jon. Have you had a chance to check that?

I'm pretty sure I already admitted that I was mistaken. But if you'd like to be smug about it, be my guest. Whoever was looking at Jon, I'm still confident that the raven's words were aimed at him.

[Twinslayer]

Okay that was snide of me. I apologize.

I just tried to send you a PM but it did not work. Can we have a cease fire on the nursing issue?

I have enjoyed your contributions to the board even though I disagree with a lot of it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Okay that was snide of me. I apologize.

I just tried to send you a PM but it did not work. Can we have a cease fire on the nursing issue?

I have enjoyed your contributions to the board even though I disagree with a lot of it.

I can't even care anymore, I'm sorry. I'm done, go get into it with someone else. Complete waste of time and I should know better.

[SFDanny]

Got to say I don't believe Wylla is the wet nurse Catelyn speaks of encountering on her arrival in Winterfell. I think the rumors about Jon tell us some important things, and the fact that the rumors in Winterfell concerning who is Jon's mother are all pointing to Ashara tell us some critical things about Ned's return trip, and point to others as well. I think the reason Ned's troops think Ashara is Jon's mom is because they first know of the newborn child when Ned returns to them at Storm's End from Starfall. Ned doesn't likely travel home without his northern levies, and the last we know of them are they are with Ned when he lifts the siege of Storm's End. If he rides up with Howland Reed, Jon, and Jon's wet-nurse with tales of a fight with Ser Arthur, the return of Dawn to the Daynes, and Lady Ashara's tragic death by suicide, it is no wonder that his bannermen will take stories home about the mysterious lady whom Ned loved since his encounter with her at Harrenhal. The fact the yet to be born young Lord of Starfall, Ned Dayne, tells us Wylla works for his family and claims to be Jon's mother, and not only Ned Dayne and the people of Starfall seem to believe her tells us something entirely different than what Ned's troops believe. Not only the supposed identity of Jon's mom, but also that Wylla shows up in Starfall with Jon in tow (whether or not she is from there originally.) They would not believe her claim otherwise. If she had been there before Jon was born and he was born amongst the good people of Starfall this would be an established fact, not a question Cersei would pose to Ned as to Ashara or a "dornish peasant" was the real mother. If Wylla was claiming to be Jon's mother on the return trip to Winterfell then we have to wonder why Robert doesn't know of her other than through a story from Ned, and why none of Ned's troops bring this story north. Robert never saw her, so it is likely Wylla didn't go with Ned Stark to King's Landing. So either Wylla stayed in Starfall when Ned left with Jon and another wet nurse goes north with Jon, or Wylla never makes the claim outside of Starfall and she doesn't travel with Jon to King's Landing, but goes there by other means. More likely, to my way of thinking, is that Jon goes with another wet nurse along with Ned to Storm's End and then they both travel by ship to White Harbor and on to Winterfell while Ned brings the news of Lyanna's death to Robert at King's Landing. Why? because I don't think Ned Stark wants either Jon or Wylla anywhere near Robert, Varys, Tywin Lannister, or any of the other people who might ask them questions in King's Landing.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Got to say I don't believe Wylla is the wet nurse Catelyn speaks of encountering on her arrival in Winterfell.

I don't even care what you said after this. Bless you.

[Twinslayer]

I can't even care anymore, I'm sorry. I'm done, go get into it with someone else. Complete waste of time and I should know better.

In that case I will note that you apologized for saying the scene happened in AGOT but you insisted the Raven was looking at Jon when it said King and that this was evidence Jon was legitimate. But you never responded when I suggested that it was Mormont and not the Raven who was looking at Jon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In that case I will note that you apologized for saying the scene happened in AGOT but you insisted the crow was looking at Jon when it said King and that this was evidence Jon was legitimate. But you never responded when I suggested that it was Mormont and not the Raven who was looking at Jon.

I said I was done wasting time on you and I meant it.

[Twinslayer]

I said I was done wasting time on you and I meant it.

Probably for the best. I tried being polite and I gave you some outs for your mistakes but if you do not want to take one of them there is little I can do.

But I abhor rudeness and you seem very twitchy today.

And there is the fact that I am looking for an interesting discussion not an argument.

[Zupoleon]

Wylla isn't such a rumour in the north, so your argument fails. Ashara is the rumour in the north.

She's probably only such a rumour in the south because she went north with Jon, so Robert made the assumption she was the mother.

Note that Ned Dayne is completely messed up on this - he claims Ashara and Ned Stark were in love, but also thinks Wylla was Jon's mother. Its pretty clear he's just a kid without a real clue. The only other place we hear of southern Wylla is KL, from Robert, and indirectly Cersei.

Wow thanks, I didn't realize the North had a 1 rumor maximum at a time, with the other "lesser" rumors being thrown back at Moat Cailin like an potential invading army. It's not unfathimable to think that some whisper of the Wylla rumor could reach Winterfell. Assuming that, it would be the acme of foolishness for Ned to bring her home.

[SFDanny]

I don't even care what you said after this. Bless you.

Thank you, and bless you as well. If you have time, let me know what you think of the ideas thrown together in that monster of a poorly constructed paragraph of mine, ok?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Thank you, and bless you as well. If you have time, let me know what you think of the ideas thrown together in that monster of a poorly constructed paragraph of mine, ok?

I think they make sense. A lot of it seems to hinge on whether Ned brought Jon with him when he visited Robert, or sent Jon on ahead back to Winterfell.

Also, I think that if you're trying to fake Wylla being Jon's mother — which seems like what's going on here — it makes more sense to do a "clean break" and for the father to take the child and go than to "make the mother suffer" by letting her go all the way north with him, only to send her back down. Edric doesn't make any mention of Wylla being in Winterfell when he speaks to Arya either. The clincher for me is pretty basic: No one remembers or says anything about Jon's Dornish wetnurse who for some reason came all the way up north with him.

[Twinslayer]

@SFDany

Do you think Ned took one wet nurse all the way from Starfall to Winterfell (but that it was not Wylla) or that there was a relay race (or a goat)?

[Fire Eater]

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

The blue rose grew out seems to hint at R+L=J. Lyanna died holding a crown of blue winter roses which Rhaegar gave to her at the tourney at Harrenhal. There is also the story of Bael the Bard taking the Stark king's daughter impregnating her, and leaving a blue rose in her bed when she disappeared. Finally, the blue rose traditionally signifies royal blood.

[Old-Growth]

Fireeater: reminder---in the War of the Roses, by which Martin sets some store, the colors were red and white. The other points are, I think, sufficient unto the end.

[SFDanny]

I think they make sense. A lot of it seems to hinge on whether Ned brought Jon with him when he visited Robert, or sent Jon on ahead back to Winterfell.

Also, I think that if you're trying to fake Wylla being Jon's mother — which seems like what's going on here — it makes more sense to do a "clean break" and for the father to take the child and go than to "make the mother suffer" by letting her go all the way north with him, only to send her back down. Edric doesn't make any mention of Wylla being in Winterfell when he speaks to Arya either. The clincher for me is pretty basic: No one remembers or says anything about Jon's Dornish wetnurse who for some reason came all the way up north with him.

Thanks, for taking the time to look through that mess. If Wylla is really just a cover story, why would Ned bring her to Winterfell where she could tell Catelyn something Ned doesn't want her to know? If Wylla is Jon's real mother, how cruel it is to force her to say nothing about her relationship to Jon while she lives amongst Ned's wife and his new trueborn son and then he throws her out? How cruel to Catelyn to bring this rival into her new home without telling her who she is? None of that sounds like Ned. None of it makes much sense.

@SFDany

Do you think Ned took one wet nurse all the way from Starfall to Winterfell (but that it was not Wylla) or that there was a relay race (or a goat)?

I thought it was clear, but if you didn't get it let me say it again and add a little from many posts on this topic. Wylla is likely the wet nurse at the Tower of Joy, who travels with Ned and Howland to Starfall and agrees to provide a cover story of herself as Jon's mother. Ned wins the Daynes to go along with this cover and they agree to hide Wylla from prying eyes and ears. A second wet nurse travels with Jon on the return journey to Winterfell. I think this means traveling back to Ned's troops, who are most likely where he left them at Storm's End. From there, because Ned would not risk Jon to discovery in King's Landing the wet nurse (not Wylla) travels by other means back to Winterfell - most likely with Howland Reed as escort and aboard ship.

I'd also suggest you start at thread one in this series and read them through. It takes a bit of time, but a lot of your questions have been answered along the way, and a lot of your theories dealt with as well.