R+L=J v.34

[Ygrain]

In my opinion, you're stretching. I'm sure there are lots of other people of Stark blood, too. Why do they not have pups? Six pups for 6 children of Ned. Period.

Yeah? Care to present us that bunch of first, second and third cousins and what not? 'Cause I sure don't remember any. If you recall, there is this little problem with Robb's succession, when Cat mentions some relatives in the Vale who, however are NOT Starks. Ned's children and Jon are the only representatives of the young Stark generation.

[The guy from the Vale]

In my opinion, you're stretching. I'm sure there are lots of other people of Stark blood, too. Why do they not have pups? Six pups for 6 children of Ned. Period.

There are no other grandchildren of Rickard Stark though. Or grand-grandchildren of Rickard's father, either. I don't know why you assume all those who got direwolves have to be the children of Eddard Stark. It's not like he arranged for these pups to lie there, so why should they refer to how the children are related to him?

[andylow]

Karstarks have Stark blood, right? Alys?

[Ygrain]

Karstarks have Stark blood, right? Alys?

Rather distant relatives, it seems. And definitely not wargs.

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm new to this forum, so perhaps this has already been countered...

I don't believe R+L=J for the simple reason there was a 6th pup. All of Ned's children, including Jon, received a pup. You may try and argue that an adopted child is still one's child, but I don't buy it (within the context of the book).

In my opinion, you're stretching. I'm sure there are lots of other people of Stark blood, too. Why do they not have pups? Six pups for 6 children of Ned. Period.

Well, I suppose it is mildly refreshing that you're not trying to use the "oh, but Jon got burned and Targs are fireproof" argument.

In any case, welcome to the forum. I encourage you to spend some time browsing and paying extra attention to threads or posts that discuss symbolism. You'll find that readers learn a lot by paying attention to subtle symbolic signs, such as a sixth wolf being separate from the pack.

[Erudain]

kids kids...please read the sing...."do not feed the troll"...thank you

[andylow]

I think it's funny how uptight people get (and are now making troll accusations) because I haven't been convinced of a theory. Especially when parts of the theory seem to be stretched to account for it.

Personally, and this obviously has no relevance to the texts, if I were GRRM I wouldn't make R+L=J. This may have been the original idea, but if I'm putting out books where people already know what is going to happen I'm not doing my job right.

You guys need to relax. Let's go have a beer.

[Dr. Pepper]

Personally, and this obviously has no relevance to the texts, if I were GRRM I wouldn't make R+L=J. This may have been the original idea, but if I'm putting out books where people already know what is going to happen I'm not doing my job right.

Quite the opposite, in fact. If you are writing books where mysteries are involved and your readers aren't able to figure out clues to solve a mystery or your answers to the mystery make no sense at all, then you are doing it wrong. A literary mystery is meant to be solved, otherwise what's the point? Might as well just write a "See Spot run" type of book.

[Lady Octarina]

Karstarks have Stark blood, right? Alys?

Aye, the same way I have Dutch ancestors. From two hundred years ago. Which might even be closer than the Karstarks are to the Starks from what we're told.

In another thread, I was alerted to a piece of info I missed:

“Honor,” she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?”

Why does Cersei think Jon is from Dorne? Did he travel with Jon from Starfall so openly? But how could he have sired a child in Dorne when there was no fighting down there and he went there only after the Rebellion was over - and I don't think he stayed there nine months, either. Furthermore, what story did he feed everyone that no-one ever suspected R-L? Did everyone believe him merely because Lord Eddard never lies? I find this difficult to believe about Varys etc.

That's an excellent point: how could they just take his word when his bastard appeared around the same region, by all accounts, where Lyanna was held "prisoner" by Rhaegar?

[Ygrain]

That's an excellent point: how could they just take his word when his bastard appeared around the same region, by all accounts, where Lyanna was held "prisoner" by Rhaegar?

Copying from the other thread:

I was thinking... perhaps Ned still managed to disconnect the two events. He may have sent Jon to the north dicreetly, and LATER admit to Robert that he had fathered a bastard while he was in Dorne, because it's the only period of time when Robert has no account of what Ned was doing. Because, we do not know when he told Robert about this - it could have been even years later. So, it would really be quite possible that Cersei learned from Robert how Ned "slipped" once.

He wouldn't have to lie about Jon's age at Winterfell, there he simply presented him, and since he never said whose he was or where he hailed from, no-one knew about Dorne or Wylla and could do the math. Robert wasn't coming to visit any time soon, and the older Jon was, the less apparent the age discrepancy would be. Also, Robert was definitely the one who would never question Ned's word, and if the news of the "Dornish connection" spread around the court from Robert with a considerable time delay, people would have no reason to suspect otherwise

I think there is one thing we can safely conclude from Cersei's venom: she doesn't know how old Jon i supposed to be.

[SFDanny]

The fact we have a Dornish commoner, or at least who lives in a Dornish town, and who claims to be Jon's mother helps to explain Cersei's remarks. I take it her remarks mean she has heard a report on Wylla.

[andylow]

Quite the opposite, in fact. If you are writing books where mysteries are involved and your readers aren't able to figure out clues to solve a mystery or your answers to the mystery make no sense at all, then you are doing it wrong. A literary mystery is meant to be solved, otherwise what's the point? Might as well just write a "See Spot run" type of book.

Mysteries are meant to be solved by the author. The purpose of red herrings to is confuse the reader into not being able to solve things on their own.

[corbon]

In my opinion, you're stretching. I'm sure there are lots of other people of Stark blood, too. Why do they not have pups? Six pups for 6 children of Ned. Period.

Those 6 are the entire generation of Starks.

Other people may have Stark blood (maybe, we've only seen Karstarks which are many generations removed), but they are not Starks of Winterfell.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I still don't buy the r+l=j thread, massively pieced together through inferences and wishful thinking. For my money ashara leaves kl to take ice to Ned. Once there they sleep together she gets pregnant, realizes she can't go back to kl in that state and goes to starfall. She gives birth to Jon and wylla wet nurses him. In the meantime l+r have another kid, Varys' aegon, after the toj Ned goes to starfall sees ashara. He realises he can't hide aegon so convinces ashara to run to essos to raise him Ned takes Jon and speaks nothing about it.

[Ygrain]

Mysteries are meant to be solved by the author. The purpose of red herrings to is confuse the reader into not being able to solve things on their own.

Touche. That's why we have there Wylla, Ashara and the fisherman's daughter, to confuse the reader.

I still don't buy the r+l=j thread, massively pieced together through inferences and wishful thinking. For my money ashara leaves kl to take ice to Ned. Once there they sleep together she gets pregnant, realizes she can't go back to kl in that state and goes to starfall. She gives birth to Jon and wylla wet nurses him. In the meantime l+r have another kid, Varys' aegon, after the toj Ned goes to starfall sees ashara. He realises he can't hide aegon so convinces ashara to run to essos to raise him Ned takes Jon and speaks nothing about it.

While your own theory does not have even that inference to rely on. Show a single passage in the books that suggest how Ashara got hold of Ice if it was taken by Aerys, or that she ever travelled to Ned - because, you know, even Ned's own household who suspect she was Jon's mother do not recall any meeting with her after Harrenhall. Also, your theory does not address Apple Martini's test question what's so super secret about Ashara being Jon's mother. I could understand if he felt uncomfortable telling Cat (though I really don't see Ned not owning his mistakes) but he surely could have spared a couple of minutes to tell Jon before he left for the Wall.

Oh, and BTW, if you want to discuss something, avoid patronizing comments next time. The theory was not derived due to some blind Rhaegar fangirlism but based on literary analysis.

[Dragonfish]

I still don't buy the r+l=j thread, massively pieced together through inferences and wishful thinking. For my money ashara leaves kl to take ice to Ned. Once there they sleep together she gets pregnant, realizes she can't go back to kl in that state and goes to starfall. She gives birth to Jon and wylla wet nurses him. In the meantime l+r have another kid, Varys' aegon, after the toj Ned goes to starfall sees ashara. He realises he can't hide aegon so convinces ashara to run to essos to raise him Ned takes Jon and speaks nothing about it.

So why does Ned tell Robert that Jon's mother was Wylla? (note that lying to your king is treason)

Why does Ned recall living lies for fourteen years? (note that "living lies" is not the same as telling lies; the former involves presenting something about yourself to the world that isn't true)

What does the blue flower growing from a wall of ice symbolize, if not Jon?

And as mentioned in Ygrain's post, why doesn't Ned tell Jon who his mother is? Doesn't he deserve to know?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Mysteries are meant to be solved by the author. The purpose of red herrings to is confuse the reader into not being able to solve things on their own.

Actually, no. A good writer writes stories that are well done enough that readers can solve them. He might eventually confirm what they know to be true, but that's it. A hack writes "gotcha" endings that no one could have seen coming. You confuse "ending that no one could have seen coming" with "good writing," and that's simply not true at all. Cheap twists do not equal good writing. And as shocking as many of GRRM's developments are, just about all of them had clues leading up to when they happened.

This theory is not a red herring. The "red herring" is the outright statement that Jon is Ned's son. Clues about him being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son are not, strictly speaking, red herrings — no one in the story has ever said explicitly, "Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Also, your theory does not address Apple Martini's test question what's so super secret about Ashara being Jon's mother.

My test question lives!! :D

Basically, my test question, whenever anyone says "So-and-So is Jon's mother," is, "What is it about this woman that makes it dangerous or impractical to tell Jon her identity?" If the answer is, "Um nothing," then she's not Jon's mother. Both Ashara and Wylla fail this test, by the way.

[Old-Growth]

Re: Ashara

There is an SSM to the effect that she was not "nailed down" in Starfall after the Harrenhall Tourney. This means that it might be feasible for Ashara to have been Jon's mom. Futhermore Lord Eddard might still have been too conflicted about the death of Ashara's brother Ser Arthur and her apparent suicide to want to lay the whole ugly mess out for a teenage boy, esp. if it turns out he would have had to include Branden and Ashara or some other tryst that "dishonored" Ashara as per Ser Barristan's recollection. While speaking to Varys in the black cells and being reminded of Jon, Eddard thinks that he needs to have a long talk with Jon; perhaps the above would all together have made for that long discussion. So there is something, at least that can be said for the Ashara hypothesis, perhaps enough to keep it from being immediately dismissed via AM's test question.

This does not explain, however, the promises to Lyanna and the lies told to keep them and the various other matters that can be adduced in support of R+L=J, so the latter hypothesis still seems much the more probable. And, of course, all of that might take up an even longer discussion between Jon and Lord Eddard, in as much as he would have to explain to Jon why he is at Castle Black instead of sitting on the Iron Throne.

[Ice Turtle]

My test question lives!! :D

Basically, my test question, whenever anyone says "So-and-So is Jon's mother," is, "What is it about this woman that makes it dangerous or impractical to tell Jon her identity?" If the answer is, "Um nothing," then she's not Jon's mother. Both Ashara and Wylla fail this test, by the way.

Besides Jon's mother being Lyanna, keeping it secret would also make sense in following cases:

1, The woman is alive and married, somehow Jon was kept a secret from her husband and if it went out it would affect her marriage

2, Jon's mother is a Targ

3, Ned doesn't have balls to acknowledge he raped someone, not that it fits with his character

Though I'm personally 99% sure Jon is Rhaegar§s.