eivers Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I can't remember but is it stated anywhere in the books that Ned's father and brother had Ice with them when they went to KL? It seems Ice was more of an ceremonial sword and execution sword than a combat sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winds of Winter blow cold Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 It's not stated, I wonder how Ned got it back if they did though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I can't remember but is it stated anywhere in the books that Ned's father and brother had Ice with them when they went to KL? It seems Ice was more of an ceremonial sword and execution sword than a combat sword.That's probably it, and Rickard went down thinking he wasn't going to need a sword as he stood at his son's trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryana Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I'll put my question here, since it's kind of related: What would the kingsguards have done if Lyanna had given birth to a girl? Would they leave and support Viserys? Or maybe even Robert since his claim would be better than baby-girl's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old-Growth Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Fire Eater: ah; one learns something everyday hereabouts :-) That does make Lyanna's fondness for blue roses more interesting, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I'll put my question here, since it's kind of related:What would the kingsguards have done if Lyanna had given birth to a girl? Would they leave and support Viserys? Or maybe even Robert since his claim would be better than baby-girl's?They considered Robert a usurper, so they would never go to him. Viserys would have a better claim if Jon turned out to be a girl, and I expect they would send at least one of their number to him in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erudain Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Aren't daugthers supposed to be behing male heirs but before uncles?IIRC Winterfell succesion is: Ned, Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya and then Benjen (asuming he did not join the watch) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Aren't daugthers supposed to be behing male heirs but before uncles?IIRC Winterfell succesion is: Ned, Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya and then Benjen (asuming he did not join the watch) Yes, in most cases, but the Targs had special rules since the Dance of the Dragons, which put females much further back in the succession list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Aren't daugthers supposed to be behing male heirs but before uncles?IIRC Winterfell succesion is: Ned, Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya and then Benjen (asuming he did not join the watch)To add to that, when Baelor the Blessed died, although he had three sisters, the crown passed to his uncle, Viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erudain Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 damn sexist targs....let's unleash Gloria Allred on them :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinslayer Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I'll put my question here, since it's kind of related: What would the kingsguards have done if Lyanna had given birth to a girl? Would they leave and support Viserys? A related question is why none of them went to Viserys while they were waiting to find out what the baby's gender would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinslayer Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Double post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinslayer Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Double post. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowynightfall Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 He tells Jaime he ordered Tyrion taken captive to avoid retaliation against his family and house Stark men...basically Hands order = King's justice.Lots of good that did. Shit hit the fan anyway! Those Lannisters don't play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Island Bruiser Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I can't remember but is it stated anywhere in the books that Ned's father and brother had Ice with them when they went to KL? It seems Ice was more of an ceremonial sword and execution sword than a combat sword.It doesn't state it but I'd say it's highly likely that Rickard took it with him. First off Ice is a greatsword, like Dawn, and is definitely a combat sword. Though it may not be suitable for all times. Even if Rickard is riding to defend his son at a trial he'd have gone armed, he did ask for trial by combat after all.Secondly if you look at the other greatswords or bastard swords that are named, Dawn, Longclaw, Hartsbane, Brightroar, they were all used in combat and generally seem to be taken everywhere by their owner, Ned seemed to carry Ice with him every time he rode out . Chuck in the advantage of using Valyrian steel and I'd say it's most likely that Rickard took it with him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Island Bruiser Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Really struggling with this. So you think that baby Aegon was real, and was actually killed, and that Rhaegar had another child with Lyanna that is not Jon that no one knew about that Ned took to Ashara who he had a baby with and told her/she decided to take Rhaegar's real child with Lyanna (even though she was close with Elia) across the narrow sea to Essos. For someone trying to poke holes in the heavily implied R+L=J, that theory has no implications in the books and is pretty holey itself.I have seen nothing in the text that implied that Ned felt guilty about killing Dayne, only that he had respect for him as a knight and a warrior.Well first off my theory goes Ashara leaves KL and goes to Ned to return Ice after Rickard is killed. She becomes impregnated and goes to Starfall. R+L does produce a kid and after the ToJ Ned goes to Ashara both to see his bastard and to work out what to do with Lyanna's kid. It's agreed that Ned will take his bastard, Jon, back to WF to raise and Ashara will flee with the R+L kid to Essos. There aren't any holes (nothing in the books say it isn't possible) in it but yes there is a fair bit of conjecture.Secondly I question how strongly the R+L=J theory is actually implied in the books and how much is people on these boards believing it and feeding off their belief. Yep there is nothing to state that it isn't possible but as I've stated there seems to be some holes in the theory if this is the case, or certainly a lot of questions to be answered, which hopefully the following books will (hurry up GRRM!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemul Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Yes, in most cases, but the Targs had special rules since the Dance of the Dragons, which put females much further back in the succession list.As it should be :read: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Octarina Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 It doesn't state it but I'd say it's highly likely that Rickard took it with him. First off Ice is a greatsword, like Dawn, and is definitely a combat sword. Though it may not be suitable for all times. Even if Rickard is riding to defend his son at a trial he'd have gone armed, he did ask for trial by combat after all.Secondly if you look at the other greatswords or bastard swords that are named, Dawn, Longclaw, Hartsbane, Brightroar, they were all used in combat and generally seem to be taken everywhere by their owner, Ned seemed to carry Ice with him every time he rode out . Chuck in the advantage of using Valyrian steel and I'd say it's most likely that Rickard took it with himI am 99% certain that Rickard didn't take the sword with him to King's Landing. First, because Ice was a greatsword - big, heavy, not that easy to swing and hit; Rickard was old, by westerosi standard, probably in his fifties, therefore not as strong and quick as he might once have been to use that kind of sword in a one-on-one combat like that. With so much at stake, I doubt he would have taken the risk. Also, if he was riding to KL with the idea of requesting a trial by combat to save his son's life, and I doubt he believed things would come down to it, why not pick his best warrior, whoever that might be, and name him his champion? For he certainly had warriors more suited than himself for the task.Not only that, but I'm nearly sure he went to King's Landing prepared to give his life in exchange for his son's in a worst case scenario, so, again, why take the sword? The sword was too valuable, and a symbol of power that would be more useful to whoever the next Lord of Winterfell (legitimacy, impressing his subordinates, etc.) would be than to him when facing Aerys (sitting on a throne made of melted swords from his dynasty's enemies...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Island Bruiser Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I am 99% certain that Rickard didn't take the sword with him to King's Landing. First, because Ice was a greatsword - big, heavy, not that easy to swing and hit; Rickard was old, by westerosi standard, probably in his fifties, therefore not as strong and quick as he might once have been to use that kind of sword in a one-on-one combat like that. With so much at stake, I doubt he would have taken the risk. Also, if he was riding to KL with the idea of requesting a trial by combat to save his son's life, and I doubt he believed things would come down to it, why not pick his best warrior, whoever that might be, and name him his champion? For he certainly had warriors more suited than himself for the task.Not only that, but I'm nearly sure he went to King's Landing prepared to give his life in exchange for his son's in a worst case scenario, so, again, why take the sword? The sword was too valuable, and a symbol of power that would be more useful to whoever the next Lord of Winterfell (legitimacy, impressing his subordinates, etc.) would be than to him when facing Aerys (sitting on a throne made of melted swords from his dynasty's enemies...).I'm almost positive he would have taken it. He's the Lord of Winterfell and he'd take all the trappings of power of the Lord of Winterfell. Even in his 50s he was still pretty formidable and there are plenty of current characters the same age or older who are still capable. Barristan and Randyll Tarly for starters. Also if he was as decrepid as you suggest he would never have asked for trial by combat.He didn't know that he was going to be executed and there is no reason not to take his sword and it's just so standard for all the Lords, who have them, to carry their ancestral swords that it would be weird not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budj Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Wouldn't Brandon have been in the trial by combat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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