When Jaime Met Brynden

[Tagganaro]

I'll just say that the one thing that throws me off is that GRRM decided to have Cat mention Jeyne's hips not just once, but twice. And the second time was a very prominent placement of that observation since it ended the chapter. That really stood out to me.

Now I suppose it's possible, maybe even likely that GRRM would simply forget about that description, but I can't quite get my head around him feeling the need to include the entirely contradictory assertion from Jamie that her hips are narrow. Are other female characters in ASOIAF hips ever mentioned and described? It's not something I would recall.

We all know GRRM loves playing coy too with his interview answers, so I don't put much stock in what he does or doesn't say.

[Budj]

I'm not sold on the switch out either. I do think the Blackfish was trying to cause misdirection due to the contents of Robb's will...not that it matters considering where Jaime ended up....

[Jon AS]

I don't really understand what you're saying here? Who remarks on the fact that she's too old? If I'm not misunderstanding you can you provide the passages you're talking of. Cat thinks of her as a pretty little girl and Kingslayer pretty much the same.

Sorry, I was referring to Jeyne Poole as a stand-in for Arya, as that was the Jeyne mentioned in the part of the post I was replying to. Everyone who takes a closer look at her realises that she's not who she's claimed to be, amongst other things because she's too old.

[David Selig]

Now I suppose it's possible, maybe even likely that GRRM would simply forget about that description, but I can't quite get my head around him feeling the need to include the entirely contradictory assertion from Jamie that her hips are narrow. Are other female characters in ASOIAF hips ever mentioned and described? It's not something I would recall.

Yes. The examples I found are Cersei, Roslin, Myranda Royce, Jhiqui, Jeyne Poole and Val.

It's amazing what you can find quickly thanks to the search function in ebooks. ;)

[Summer is Ending]

Sorry, I was referring to Jeyne Poole as a stand-in for Arya, as that was the Jeyne mentioned in the part of the post I was replying to. Everyone who takes a closer look at her realises that she's not who she's claimed to be, amongst other things because she's too old.

My mistake, should have read further back.

[LeoSuperstar]

Yes. The examples I found are Cersei, Roslin, Myranda Royce, Jhiqui, Jeyne Poole and Val.

It's amazing what you can find quickly thanks to the search function in ebooks. ;)

He mentions the hips because he is considering the possibility that she is pregnant with Robb's son. It's one of the first questions he asks.

Thanks for showing other examples of hips being described ^_^ .

[So1ar]

Etc. But talking about Jeyne's supposed escape, Im of the opinion that it didnt happened. The hips didn't changed, two different people described it.

so what you're saying is..these hips don't lie?

[LeoSuperstar]

so what you're saying is..these hips don't lie?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I was under the impression even Tywin was at least mildly surprised that Robb had fucked away his kingdom. If it had been his plan from the beginning, it had had to be an especially convoluted one (Robb gets wounded and stays specifically at the Crag; Theon Greyjoy provides crushing news from home, with impeccable timing; formerly honorable Robb, son of Ned Stark, decides to defecate on his royal word and marry the girl he likes instead). No, I don't believe anyone except GRRM himself could've planned this ahead.

Tywin wasn't the least bit surprised during that chapter. Actually, he seemed quite pleased and confident.

Personally, I believe Sybell put the plan together herself and later informed Tywin.

The problem with the theory is how did Tywin know where Robb would be in the first place to pull off his grand pimpin' plan? It all seems a fortunate coincidence for Tywin, but then again, no one can blame Tywin that he lacked fortune during the Wot5K...

Tywin knew where Robb was marching and the Crag was an easy castle to take. It wouldn't have been too hard to come up with the plan, although it may not have worked. The Crag was a poorly held castle. Tywin could have told them to act as if they wanted to fight, injure the Young Wolf, surrender, allow Jeyne to nurse him and see what happens. There was no way to defend the castle against Robb's forces either way. Still, as I mentioned above, I do not believe it was originally his idea.

Yes Kevan Lannister drops a few hints, that Jeyne was very much her mother's daughter. Obviously hinting that they wanted to rise above their station and would go far in doing so. Then there's Grey Wind who didn't like the Westerlings much, also a giveaway he mistrusted them.

Untill we know more the theory that Jeyne is pregnant or that the Westerlings indeed had plotted against Robb cannot be proven in any way.

The idea that the Westerlings plotted against Robb was well established by Tywin:

"The Crag is not far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

For once in a very long time, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are offtimes more clever than the men who laugh at them."

[Jon AS]

Yes. The examples I found are Cersei, Roslin, Myranda Royce, Jhiqui, Jeyne Poole and Val.

It's amazing what you can find quickly thanks to the search function in ebooks. ;)

I compiled a brief list as well (what? I apparently don't have anything better to do...):

-First one goes to Cersei in A Clash of Kings, where her's are described as "slender"

-Second one Meera Reed: "one slim hip"

-Brienne: "broad of hip"

-A giant: "too thick in the leg and hips to be a man"

-Then there's the two mentions for Jeyne

-General description of the women of house Crakehall: "wide hips to bear children..."

-Roslyn Frey: "narrow in the hips" (but apparently that might not be an impediment to bearing children in her case...)

-Another description of Brienne: "broad in the shoulder and broader in the hips"

-Asha's "lush curves at waist and hip" get a mention, too

-Hotho Harlaw talks up his daughter: "...but she has good hips"

-Jaime becomes "uncomfortably aware of the curve of [Pia's] hip"

-The Queen of whores shakes her "ample hips"

-Myranda Royce is "broad of hip"

-Jhiqui has "wide hips"

-Jeyne Poole has "narrow" hips

-Val has "good hips" according to Ser Patrek

So, lots of characters' hips get described during the course of the series, arguing from that angle is really a non-starter.

Strangely, the word seems to come up more often the longer the series goes on. 66 mentions in the first four books (only 8 in AGoT), but 27 in A Dance with Dragons alone.;)

[Tagganaro]

Yes. The examples I found are Cersei, Roslin, Myranda Royce, Jhiqui, Jeyne Poole and Val.

It's amazing what you can find quickly thanks to the search function in ebooks. ;)

Interesting haha. And yes agreed about the search function in ebooks. Very useful to have. That would go against my argument a little bit I guess.

[The Sunset King]

ETA: it's definitely confirmed that Jon is in Robb's will. That World of Ice and Fire app stated this in a way that's not really open to interpretation.

Does it list this under a Jon description? Like say when describing Jon, it might say "attested as Robb's heir in his last will and testament."

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I'll just say that the one thing that throws me off is that GRRM decided to have Cat mention Jeyne's hips not just once, but twice. And the second time was a very prominent placement of that observation since it ended the chapter. That really stood out to me.

Catelyn's main focus in terms of Jeyne is her ability to bear children. It makes sense that she would focus on her hips.

Now I suppose it's possible, maybe even likely that GRRM would simply forget about that description, but I can't quite get my head around him feeling the need to include the entirely contradictory assertion from Jamie that her hips are narrow. Are other female characters in ASOIAF hips ever mentioned and described? It's not something I would recall.

We all know GRRM loves playing coy too with his interview answers, so I don't put much stock in what he does or doesn't say.

Also, Jaime is looking at her from a very cynical standpoint.

[Tagganaro]

I've never understood why it was even questioned that Jon was put in Robb's will. It seemed pretty obvious that he was, based on the preceding scene where Robb says he's gonna do it, Cat argues against it, and then Robb essentially tells her to shut up and leave it alone, it's done, Jon will be put in the will. I suppose GRRM could have done a classic bait + switch there, but wouldn't really make much sense from a narrative perspective.

@Lady Tippy Wolfsbane- While I agree with your points, and while it certainly does make sense for Cat to focus on Jeyne's hips as a result of her desire to get a grandchild, it doesn't serve to answer my question really either. Which is that GRRM pretty clearly has Cat focus on Jeyne's wide hips, in a somewhat memorable way. Now, I understand your second point that Jaime is looking at her hips from a much different perspective than Cat is, but I still find the contradictory descriptions to be very intriguing personally.

I'm not married to this theory at all though, and I'll admit the evidence against it might actually be even more compelling than the evidence for it. So really, could go either way on it. You could just as easily be right (if not so more easily), and I could just as easily be wrong.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I've never understood why it was even questioned that Jon was put in Robb's will. It seemed pretty obvious that he was, based on the preceding scene where Robb says he's gonna do it, Cat argues against it, and then Robb essentially tells her to shut up and leave it alone, it's done, Jon will be put in the will. I suppose GRRM could have done a classic bait + switch there, but wouldn't really make much sense from a narrative perspective.

I agree. I always thought it was a given that Robb named Jon his heir and disinherited Sansa.

@Lady Tippy Wolfsbane- While I agree with your points, and while it certainly does make sense for Cat to focus on Jeyne's hips as a result of her desire to get a grandchild, it doesn't serve to answer my question really either. Which is that GRRM pretty clearly has Cat focus on Jeyne's wide hips, in a somewhat memorable way.

It did make it memorable. I always took it as a way to show Catelyn's emotional turmoil, plus at the time she was thinking about the girl providing an heir. Also, GRRM had Catelyn focus on Jeyne's "good" hips. She never said they were wide. With GRRM, wording is always important. :)

Now, I understand your second point that Jaime is looking at her hips from a much different perspective than Cat is, but I still find the contradictory descriptions to be very intriguing personally.

I'm not married to this theory at all though, and I'll admit the evidence against it might actually be even more compelling than the evidence for it. So really, could go either way on it. You could just as easily be right (if not so more easily), and I could just as easily be wrong.

I totally understand. I get like that about certain things in the books...mainly involving the dragons and prophecies.

[Scipio Africanus]

I agree. I always thought it was a given that Robb named Jon his heir and disinherited Sansa.

The problem is that a lot of other options barring Harrion Karstark (who was already captured by the Lannister, and may or may not have been known by Robb, not to mention the Karstarks pulled their support at the time Robb drew up the will) pretty much end up in the end of independance of the North. Was Robb really going to commit to that? I doubt it, otherwise he would've bent a knee long ago.

The outside chance (and this theory has been discussed) is that Arya was named as well as heir, as a concession to Cat. However both Robb and Cat considered Arya dead, and besides, as a woman she would've been subjected to a marriage which might also end Nothern independance. And it did, kind of, when Tywin produced fake Arya.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

The problem is that a lot of other options barring Harrion Karstark (who was already captured by the Lannister, and may or may not have been known by Robb, not to mention the Karstarks pulled their support at the time Robb drew up the will) pretty much end up in the end of independance of the North. Was Robb really going to commit to that? I doubt it, otherwise he would've bent a knee long ago.

The outside chance (and this theory has been discussed) is that Arya was named as well as heir, as a concession to Cat. However both Robb and Cat considered Arya dead, and besides, as a woman she would've been subjected to a marriage which might also end Nothern independance. And it did, kind of, when Tywin produced fake Arya.

Yep yep! This is why I automatically assumed he named Jon his heir. There really weren't any other options if he wanted a Stark to remain in Winterfell. I never thought it would matter much, because I always felt that Jon would somehow secure Winterfell. :wub:

[geogus]

The Blackfish flying Robb's banners is an equivalent of Dondarion saying that the BwB is composed of Robert's men.

Etc. But talking about Jeyne's supposed escape, Im of the opinion that it didnt happened. The hips didn't changed, two different people described it.

About the hips, first of all i have to say I love Jeyme Westerling pregnancy theorie.

I dont belive that the hips things only happened because they were described by two diferent people.

the hips were a very important element in the Catleyn capter. Indeed, the last sentence was about it.

It looks like it was placed as a clue for the future reference in Jaime´s chapter.

[DerekBrink]

The Blackfish swore an oath to keep Jeyne safe.

If you think she isn't with him than you think the Blackfish is a punkass like the Kingslayer that keeps only those oaths he finds convenient.

lol at Jamie Lannister being a punk ass. Quite possibly the greatest swordsmen in Westeros history and a guy who chose to save his family rather than stupid oaths even though it would cause others to scorn him.

[Lord Martin]

I am 99% convinced there was a switch of the Westerling Daughters.

1. Two come to Riverrun, Jaime only sees one leave. We know that both Elena and Jeyne come to Riverrun w/Robb through Caetlyn's early chapters in ASOS. We know from Jaime's that only one leaves w/ Sybil. So one daughter is missing. That is pretty huge.

- Some have suggested that the Western men would blow the whistle here. But, we have no textual support that any western man knew that both Westerling girls were at Riverrun. Besides, even if they did see her face sisters might look enough alike that no one could say its Elena and not Jeyne.

2. The hips comment is pretty daming... this isn't Renly's eyes. Its mentioned repeatedly and with purpose.

3. Blackfish's oath. In his parley w/ Jaime, Blackfish makes it clear that his loyalty is to Robb's queen, even over House Tully. He is willing to see his nephew and the rightful heir of Riverrun killed. He wouldn't just turn and run to save his own skin once Edmure was inside. He's with his Queen.

4. The crown... hat tip to AM... there really is no explanation for where the crown is.

Now, pregnancy is another matter. A swap doesn't mean the pregnancy is 100%. I personally think that Sybil Spicer was playing both sides. Robb was inside her castle, so she had to appear on his side. But she knew what Tywin was capable of, so when she could, she wrote to him and made promises to keep Jeyne from becoming pregnant.

I wouldn't be shocked if Robb released Jon Snow from his NW vows and asked him to marry Jeyne in his stead to continue the Stark line. Afterall, Ned married his brother's wife to be.