Tyrion: A Clean Record (almost)

[Kittykatknits]

Where did Tyrion threaten to rape Joffrey??? :o

Either I'm totally blanking after a long day or I never picked that up in the reading.

He didn't, he threatened to rape Tommen. Cersei brings him Yaya, thinking she found Tyrion's whore. His response is to tell Cersei that whatever happens to Yaya will happen to her son, including beating and raping. He then tells her that he'll even do it himself.

In Tyrion's first Storm chapter, he asks where Tommen is and learns that the boy is back with his mother. Tyrion then thinks to himself that this is a good thing as he rather liked the boy but he could not have let Cersei win.

[Pyrrhus of Epirus]

- Armed the mountain clans who are now raping and killing small folk because he wanted revenge against Lysa

- Broke Marillion's fingers because the man embarrased him

- Expressed satisfaction that Masha Heddle was killed. Her only crime was having the bad luck to own the inn he was taken at.

- Gave Joff the Antler Men to keep him occupied. No trial first.

- Repeatedly objectified Shae and even hit her.

- Poisoned his sister

- Threatened to beat and rape his nephew

- Participated in the forced marriage of Sansa Stark

- Killed his father

- Killed Shae

- Raped a sex slave

- At least terrorized another sex slave

- Had a singer killed.

I'm sure I missed a few. And, now that I think about it, other than the above, the man's a real saint.

Well, he isn't a Saint, but he isn't so bad a person either. I'd say he's one of the better characters in the books, morally at least.

[straits]

Do you think she'd be the first? Given we're shown nothing of her character it's perfectly within reason.

So you are of the opinion women are not capable of having sexual encounters with more than one man at a time without being frightened?

"A straw man, is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."

Not quite there but you're making an effort.

[Pod The Impaler]

Where did Tyrion threaten to rape Joffrey??? :o

Either I'm totally blanking after a long day or I never picked that up in the reading.

He threatened to geld Joffrey.

He threatened to rape Tommen, but anyone who can read can read right in there that he did it to frighten Cersei. Cersei thoughtTyrion was a monster, so he played the monster role in that conversation, to use the prejudice she already had against her. And why? Because moments earlier, she had promised to kill / mutilate / have raped "Tyrion's whore", out of spite. He pointed out that such a threat works both ways.

(This is what passes for normal conversation when you're one of Tywin's children.)

[Ironkiller]

Regarding Tyrion raping a sex slave, I've always got the impression that this was meant to show us how easily can a person forget he is dealing with slaves and not actual whores.

[Éadaoin]

Do you think she'd be the first? Given we're shown nothing of her character it's perfectly within reason.

Lol, it is so weird to me that you are arguing this that I don't know quite what to say.

[Pyrrhus of Epirus]

He didn't, he threatened to rape Tommen. Cersei brings him Yaya, thinking she found Tyrion's whore. His response is to tell Cersei that whatever happens to Yaya will happen to her son, including beating and raping. He then tells her that he'll even do it himself.

In Tyrion's first Storm chapter, he asks where Tommen is and learns that the boy is back with his mother. Tyrion then thinks to himself that this is a good thing as he rather liked the boy but he could not have let Cersei win.

So, this really isn't that bad. Cersei was playing dirty, so you have to play dirty too. Judging by what I've read of Tyrion, there is absolutely no chance in hell he would beat or rape Tommen, absolutely zero. A person will convince himself of anything when his blood is boiling, and having a sister like Cersei is certain to boil anyone's blood, but like the books say, words are wind, saying something is easier than doing it.

[straits]

Well, he isn't a Saint, but he isn't so bad a person either. I'd say he's one of the better characters in the books, morally at least.

Of the PoV characters?

Bran

Dany

Jon

Cat

Sansa

Asha

Cercei

Aeron

Arys

Brienne

Davos

Ned

Melisandre

Quentyn

Sam

Theon

Arianne

Areo

and others.

Which majority is he distinctly better, or worse than? I'm curious.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Regarding Tyrion raping a sex slave, I've always got the impression that this was meant to show us how easily can a person forget he is dealing with slaves and not actual whores.

I think it was meant to show how low Tyrion has stooped.

[chrisdaw]

A 13 year old systematically having sex with being raped by 50 soldiers. Even if a woman has tremendous sexual appetite I wouldn't believe this would happen under normal circumstances. And you can't stretch RedBean's objection to rape of a prostitute to an unrelated generalization which assumes consent.

Believe what you will, the basis for the question was Red Bean's consistent refusal to contemplate consensual group sex on Tysha's part, leading me to think perhaps they are culturally inclined to believe such a thing implausible in any situation.

[David Selig]

So, this really isn't that bad. Cersei was playing dirty, so you have to play dirty too. Judging by what I've read of Tyrion, there is absolutely no chance in hell he would beat or rape Tommen, absolutely zero.

IIRC Tyrion wondered himself what he'd do if Cersei forces him to prove whether he was bluffing or not and didn't know for sure. So there was at least some chance he'd have done it. The beating part at least, the rape is too much even for him.

[chrisdaw]

"A straw man, is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."

Not quite there but you're making an effort.

I explained the reasoning of the second question, please explain how the first quote is a straw man argument.

[Pyrrhus of Epirus]

IIRC Tyrion wondered himself what he'd do if Cersei forces him to prove whether he was bluffing or not and didn't know for sure. So there was at least some chance he'd have done it. The beating part at least, the rape is too much even for him.

Like I said before, thinking you'd do something isn't the same as doing it. I've been mad enough to threaten rape as a means to intimidate, and at the time I was sure if it had come to that, I'd have done it. But knowing who I am as a person, I could never honestly do that. We convince ourselves of things we're not always capable of, words mean nothing, it's actions that matter.

[Kittykatknits]

:shocked: You cant be serious....

It makes perfect sense because thats how i feel now. At first, i was a fan of Tyrion as a person and as a character. Now, im just a fan of the character, not the person. Meta speaking, i find his character development highly interesting. But on a non-meta level, im like "dude....say it aint so! STOP THAT!!! Yer losin' me!!"

Yes, I read the first two books in the series back to back (pulling all nighters because I need to read just one more page) and then Storm a few weeks later. I admit that I never stopped to think what impact the POV perspective would have on me as a reader. I needed to know what happened next so badly that I did not spend the time questioning what some of the characters were doing. And not just Tyrion, but others in the series. It was after some time when I decided to re-read the books again at a slower pace, that I changed my viewpoint.

I was extremely sympathetic to Tyrion at first and it was only after I took a second look that I realized he was not quite the person that a first glance led me to believe. It's led to a greater appreciation of the character but a growing dislike of who he is.

Of the PoV characters?

Bran

Dany

Jon

Cat

Sansa

Asha

Cercei

Aeron

Arys

Brienne

Davos

Ned

Melisandre

Quentyn

Sam

Theon

Arianne

Areo

and others.

Which majority is he distinctly better, or worse than? I'm curious.

I would imagine the list of those he is distinctly better than is going to be rather small.

I think it was meant to show how low Tyrion has stooped.

Yes, that was my understanding as well.

IIRC Tyrion wondered himself what he'd do if Cersei forces him to prove whether he was bluffing or not and didn't know for sure. So there was at least some chance he'd have done it. The beating part at least, the rape is too much even for him.

Yep, that is correct. His inner thoughts show that he did have some conflict over this. He loves his nephew but he also could not let his sister win. I don't think we can, with 100% certainty, say that he would not have done it. I agree he would not have raped Tommen though.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

So you are of the opinion women are not capable of having sexual encounters with more than one man at a time without being frightened?

You're confusing a woman's possible sexual preferences with a very obvious depiction of a gang rape. Honestly, this disturbs me.

OK. Let's assume Tysha is a gold digger who only cares about money. Wouldn't marrying Tyrion be worth more? Does it make ANY sense for it not to be rape? Please, put forward a scenario for that.

Having bled is nothing to do with consent.

When sex is injuring a woman so badly that she is *bleeding, it can be assumed there is no consent. Even if consent was there in the beginning, it is gone by that point. Now, I've never actually made a woman bleed, but I think this is a reasonable conclusion.

Is it possible there still was consent? Yes. But the chances are so ridiculously low, you need to show some proof before making this argument.

*We're not talking about virginity since we know she wasn't a virgin.

Believe what you will, the basis for the question was Red Bean's consistent refusal to contemplate consensual group sex on Tysha's part, leading me to think perhaps they are culturally inclined to believe such a thing implausible in any situation.

No. It is the ability to read context and/or the unwillingness to excuse gang rape.

There is no logical reason for Tysha to consent to this.

1. It was not pleasurable. A 13-year old girl simply cannot have sex that much and not be injured. At some point, she would want to stop.

2. Whatever Tywin offered her would have been less than being Tyrion's wife even if it was before Jaimie took the vows and made Tyrion the legal heir (though I am pretty sure it was after).

As for the actual topic: Tyrion is not a good guy. He started off fairly decent. But his arc has taken him to the dark side. It will be interesting to see if he redeems himself or if he because the monster everyone believes he is.

[Pod The Impaler]

Yes, I found this to be very unsettling. He frames her gang-rape as a punishment against him, he is the victim not her. His mind changes once Jaime tells him the truth which is just as problematic. He learns she was "pure" and suddenly it is wrong. Even so, he still frames the events around him, "she was my wife" so he still defines it in relation to him.

I think you take the comment "my wife" too plainly - it has a complex meaning.

"Wife", as in: "Everything about her was legitimate. She actually loved me - the only person who ever did, or ever could. She was innocent. And that means what you did, what father did, what I did..."

See what I mean? Not "my wife" as in "mine". Four words loaded with a lifetime of negative emotions - guilt, sorrow, shock, rage.

The only pure and loving thing Tyrion ever knew, the only chance at happiness he ever had. And the worst thing about it being destroyed was that he was tricked + coerced into destroying it. Destroying her.

You think Tyrion did not already carry a ton of remorse inside him even when he thought she was a whore ? It was enough to warp his whole idea of his own worth as a man, much less of what kind of women would show him the least bit of sexual affection. It also was instrumental in him accepting that he would deep down always be an unloved monster (as his father intended).

The only thing that kept him from utterly cracking was his belief that Tysha was a whore who cynically used him. A weak justification for a horrible act of torture, but the only straw he could grasp at.

It was only with the full realization of what happened with Tysha that he finally understood the magnitude of what he'd done (for his father, for his family name, for a chance to justify his existence to them). It was all for nothing. His family really hated him all along. They were the monsters, even Jaime. And she paid the price for it. Tyrion knows this in his bones, maybe always did, and it is why he acts as he does.

[Ironkiller]

I think it was meant to show how low Tyrion has stooped.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think that as well. But one thing does not contradict the other.

I mean, with all the slave thematic in ADWD I believe it was not a coincidence that Tyrion had sex with a slave.

[butterbumps!]

So you are of the opinion women are not capable of having sexual encounters with more than one man at a time without being frightened?

I read through the whole thread, but I kind of found your arguments really disturbing. I don't understand how Tysha's gang rape was anything other than an extremely forced gang rape. What further information would you require to see this as a gang rape?

[chrisdaw]

You're confusing a woman's possible sexual preferences with a very obvious depiction of a gang rape. Honestly, this disturbs me.

OK. Let's assume Tysha is a gold digger who only cares about money. Wouldn't marrying Tyrion be worth more? Does it make ANY sense for it not to be rape? Please, put forward a scenario for that.

The question makes no sense. Once Tywin found out, the marriage had no future. If she were given a choice it was not between remaining married to Tyrion or gold and silver for sexual services, that's not plausible. What is plausible is a choice between being thrown out without a penny to her name and back to her dirt poor orphan ways or with a bit of coin for sexual services.

People bring up her age as a point against her having consented. And of course if we were to go by the modern statutory rape laws of mostly developed nations that would be the case. But if we're dealing in the black and white of consent or no consent than her age works the other way as well. She may well not have understood what she was getting into and the allure of a gold and stags made her mind up for her. It may not even have been naivety, it could have been the difference between eating and starving, being warm and freezing or living and dying.

When sex is injuring a woman so badly that she is *bleeding, it can be assumed there is no consent. Even if consent was there in the beginning, it is gone by that point. Now, I've never actually made a woman bleed, but I think this is a reasonable conclusion.

Is it possible there still was consent? Yes. But the chances are so ridiculously low, you need to show some proof before making this argument.

*We're not talking about virginity since we know she wasn't a virgin.

It's a naive conclusion based on personal experience in another world and in completely different situations.

No. It is the ability to read context and/or the unwillingness to excuse gang rape.

There is no logical reason for Tysha to consent to this.

1. It was not pleasurable. A 13-year old girl simply cannot have sex that much and not be injured. At some point, she would want to stop.

2. Whatever Tywin offered her would have been less than being Tyrion's wife even if it was before Jaimie took the vows and made Tyrion the legal heir (though I am pretty sure it was after).

Dealt with above.

I read through the whole thread, but I kind of found your arguments really disturbing. I don't understand how Tysha's gang rape was anything other than an extremely forced gang rape. What further information would you require to see this as a gang rape?

Any kind of evidence she did not provide consent.

[Raksha the Demon]

These are the only ones I would really hold as cruel acts, and killing Shae/handing the Antler Men over are grey areas considering the circumstances.

But yeah, Tyrion is definitely not the most benevolent character in the series, nor is he supposed to be. In fact, he's one of the most morally complex characters in ASoIaF.

Tyrion started out as a quite sympathetic character; he is and was, in my opinion, the best of Tywin's children. But he is getting darker and darker, not quite full evil yet, but if he keeps on crossing the line, he will become what I consider evil.

He has knowingly and directly committed evil acts. Tyrion didn't have to let his terrified barely nubile bride undress and then ogle her and say he desired her even though she was a child; he could have told her to keep her clothes on, they would get to know each other first. But Tyrion looks after Tyrion's wants and needs first; and he did want Sansa, as young and scared as she was; though it was to his credit that he didn't force her... - He didn't have to murder Shae (he could have left her bound and gagged; he didn't kill her to save himself from discovery, he killed her because he was furious that she not only testified against him in court but made a fool of him - which is why he is so definitely Tywin's son). He didn't have to bully and rape slaves who have no choice but to please him; but he does. He didn't have to threaten to whip a child (his own nephew) but he did and he meant to do so if necessary to carry through with his threat.

I'll cut Tyrion some slack in sending his niece off to a marriage that could get her killed (due to the Dornish recognition of female inheritance and thus the very real possibility of their using Myrcella to rebel against Tommen's rule); he may not have realized it at the time.

I love reading Tyrion's POV; because he is one of the smartest and most amusing narrators, but he is not Aemon Targaryen or even Ned Stark in terms of being a definitely and consistently good man.