R+L=J v. 36

[corbon]

So do you think the KG knew about the marriage?

The three at ToJ, certainly, else at least one of tem would have been sent to Dragonstone. The others, probably not.

Could have Varys known about it? Otherwise, I hardly think he'd be behind the plot to hide Aegon... if Aegon is really Aegon. Now I hope he is because I don't want to see Jon being king of anything. The Night's Watch is so much funnier and cooler (no pun intended).

No.

Varys is not omnipotent. Outside the Red Keep (where his little birds are) he is not much more than a particularly good spymaster. Since everything is happening in secret with only a tiny number of people (who are not loyal to Varys) in the know half a continent away, Varys has no way of knowing.

But Aegon, would be ahead of Jon anyway. He's Rhaegar's first born, Jon's older half-brother. So any wedding beween Rhaegar and Lyanna is irrelevant to Varys' plan with Aegon.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Thanks, that helped me a lot figuring out their ages :)

Viserys believed he was the rightful king but then he was also a fool. So do you think the KG knew about the marriage? Could have Varys known about it? Otherwise, I hardly think he'd be behind the plot to hide Aegon... if Aegon is really Aegon. Now I hope he is because I don't want to see Jon being king of anything. The Night's Watch is so much funnier and cooler (no pun intended).

There are other reasons as to why the KG could have been at the tower.

There is a theory that Aegon was smuggled out of KL earlier than the sacking and was kept at the ToJ hence why the KG were there to protect him.

Equally another reason is that you notice they mention not fleeing a fair bit and retreating to Dragonstone, presumably to Essos after that would definitely be fleeing. The Targaryean dynasty they swore to protect has fallen so Viserys really isn't their king as he's not really king of anything. They're at the tower then fulfilling their vow to follow the orders of the King and are following the last order of the last king they swore to obey.

Finally another reason I heard is that they simply hadn't heard of the location of Viserys until very close to the time Ned turns up, information does move slowly round Weseros. Hence they didn't have time to get there before Ned turns up.

Of them all I find their acceptance of the fall of the Targaryean dynasty/The Kings Guard doesn't flee one the most plausible. Apart from anything else they actually state they don't flee when they talk to Ned.

[Twinslayer]

No problem I hope it helps Twinslayer. To your questions, yes, Ned confirms it in his conversation with Robert where we first learn about Wylla:

bold emphasis added

If you're interested in the subject of character ages may I recommend a thread I started in the re-read section not very imaginatively named "Character Ages". It discusses Robb and Jon's relative ages among many others. Probably much more than anyone but me wants to know on the subject - my own private mania. At least one of them.

I think Wylla the wet nurse in Dorne is from the White Harbor region and taken to the Tower of Joy by Rhaegar or people loyal to him to, at least in part, be a wet nurse for Lyanna's expected child.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the reference. I thought Bear Island Bruiser was referring to the following quote:

Obviously Varys is reporting about Daenerys and her dragons, but making it seem like sailor's fantasy tales, just like a sighting of a kraken. Some people think Varys is telling the truth here about both sightings, and I thought the Bear Island Bruiser was one of them. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

The ages thread is great. I'm going to go through it all when I have some time. Also, you are right about the Kraken, I just misrembered that part.

I see your point about the discussion between Ned and Robert, but I think it's a little ambiguous. Does Ned mean that he dishonored Catelyn when Jon was conceived or when Jon was born? If the former, Jon is younger than Robb. If the latter, Jon is older.

[Twinslayer]

There are other reasons as to why the KG could have been at the tower.

There is a theory that Aegon was smuggled out of KL earlier than the sacking and was kept at the ToJ hence why the KG were there to protect him.

Equally another reason is that you notice they mention not fleeing a fair bit and retreating to Dragonstone, presumably to Essos after that would definitely be fleeing. The Targaryean dynasty they swore to protect has fallen so Viserys really isn't their king as he's not really king of anything. They're at the tower then fulfilling their vow to follow the orders of the King and are following the last order of the last king they swore to obey.

Finally another reason I heard is that they simply hadn't heard of the location of Viserys until very close to the time Ned turns up, information does move slowly round Weseros. Hence they didn't have time to get there before Ned turns up.

Of them all I find their acceptance of the fall of the Targaryean dynasty/The Kings Guard doesn't flee one the most plausible. Apart from anything else they actually state they don't flee when they talk to Ned.

This discussion of Aegon and Jon led me to a stray thought, which is kind of pedantic, but I wonder if it has been discussed before. Does the Prince Who Was Promised literally have to spend some time being a "prince"? If not, then it does not matter whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. If it does matter, and if Jon was born a king, then it seems he has a problem fitting the prophecy.

Incidentally, this could also be a problem for Stannis too since he -- unlike Bran and Rickon who became princes when their brother became king -- never appears to have been styled as a prince.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

This discussion of Aegon and Jon led me to a stray thought, which is kind of pedantic, but I wonder if it has been discussed before. Does the Prince Who Was Promised literally have to spend some time being a "prince"? If not, then it does not matter whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. If it does matter, and if Jon was born a king, then it seems he has a problem fitting the prophecy.

I don't think it does matter in terms of the prophecy. I mean prophecy is difficult enough to read, or so it seems, so the 'prince' could easily just be son of a royal or indeed someone who grows into a leader.

[MtnLion]

There are two problems with that. First of all, Godric tells Davos this happened at the start of the war, not at the end of it. Secondly, Ser Godric is a Vale bannerman - he has no responsibilities towards Ned, and moreso, is quite a shifty person, from what we see of him.

Certainly and he does need a granule of truth to base his lie upon. Jon Arryn is Godric's Leige and Ned was just fostered there. It is just a possible reason for details in the story to be part of the real story.

[Erudain]

Got me thinking but Belara Waters actually made a very good question.

Didn't Jaime or Barristan ever wonder why the 3 KG remained at ToJ after the sack?

Did they just assume that being in such a remote location Dayne, Whent and Hightower never heard of the death of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon?

We've reached the conclusion that the presence of the KG at ToJ is an indication that a king was present there, otherwise at least one of them was duty bound to try to be with Viserys at Dragonstone, pretty sure Jaime or Barristan could make the same deduction "3 KG at ToJ none with Viserys, even if ordered to remain there one of them had to go to Viserys...wtf is going on?"

Edit: of course the explanation could be that they are two dumbasses that never actually thougth on that or don't really care...

[Ygrain]

Got me thinking but Belara Waters actually made a very good question.

Didn't Jaime or Barristan ever wonder why the 3 KG remained at ToJ after the sack?

Did they just assume that being in such a remote location Dayne, Whent and Hightower never heard of the death of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon?

We've reached the conclusion that the presence of the KG at ToJ is an indication that a king was present there, otherwise at least one of them was duty bound to try to be with Viserys at Dragonstone, pretty sure Jaime or Barristan could make the same deduction "3 KG at ToJ none with Viserys, even if ordered to remain there one of them had to go to Viserys...wtf is going on?"

Edit: of course the explanation could be that they are two dumbasses that never actually thougth on that or don't really care...

The presumption that the KG presence at ToJ signifies the presence of a king works only if they are aware that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead. We know they are from their dialogue with Ned, but the rest of the kingdom may assume that they were out of touch and simply followed their last orders from Rhaegar (Ned himself actually may have spread the notion that the KG were unaware of the Sack etc.).

[Black Wolf Smith]

The presumption that the KG presence at ToJ signifies the presence of a king works only if they are aware that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead. We know they are from their dialogue with Ned, but the rest of the kingdom may assume that they were out of touch and simply followed their last orders from Rhaegar (Ned himself actually may have spread the notion that the KG were unaware of the Sack etc.).

I would again go with less is more. When Ned came back, told that he and his group had found them and they were now dead( also about the men he had lost doing it)

[Gi_Varotti]

Equally another reason is that you notice they mention not fleeing a fair bit and retreating to Dragonstone, presumably to Essos after that would definitely be fleeing. The Targaryean dynasty they swore to protect has fallen so Viserys really isn't their king as he's not really king of anything. They're at the tower then fulfilling their vow to follow the orders of the King and are following the last order of the last king they swore to obey.

The presumption that the KG presence at ToJ signifies the presence of a king works only if they are aware that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead. We know they are from their dialogue with Ned, but the rest of the kingdom may assume that they were out of touch and simply followed their last orders from Rhaegar (Ned himself actually may have spread the notion that the KG were unaware of the Sack etc.).

I agree that the KG doesn't flee.

Maybe they received orders from Rhaegar (to me, he seems to be a clever Targaryen and not a mad one so I think he could have made a good plan in case it all wnet wrong) to go to the Tower to keep Lyanna safe and to avoid Ned from rescuing her? Even so, this doesn't explain the fight. Ned wouldn't go out spreading the truth about Jon like crazy (if that is the reason of the fight).

I think they just didn't care about Viserys because they knew he had no right to be king so why waste time protecting him?

[SFDanny]

Why must he?

I can see it more along the lines of Ned telling Robert very very little, and Robert asking even less. They are making up, sort of. Taciturn (Ned) and blokey (Robert) blokes don't tend do do that ... volubly. A simple conversation:

[robert]So, returned Dawn to the Daynes, eh. Arthur is dead then?

[ned] Yep

[robert] You killed him? Must of been some fight?

[ned] We did. Lost Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Mark Ryswell. Good men.

[robert] Good friends and true

...

[robert] And Lyanna?

[ned] She died in my arms Robert.

[robert]...

I don't believe Ned ever reported any more than that about ToJ.

Lyanna died in his arms, Arthur Dayne is dead. Period.

Corbon, I should have said "highly, highly likely" instead of "must." There is nothing for Ned to gain by withholding the information about Hightower and Whent, and much for him to lose. By telling Robert the Lord Commander and Ser Oswell are dead he settles the issue of where they are and what are they doing. By leaving this information out he invites investigation into their fate. Some may question why the two are with Ser Arthur in the Prince's Pass, but that can be explained in ways that Robert understands - the importance for Rhaegar in keeping Lyanna away from him. If he had left it out I think we would know of it. I think Ser Barristan doesn't join Robert if Hightower is still out fighting the fight against the usurper. Or he at least thinks the White Bull is. I can't imagine Robert letting Ser Gerold's fate remain a mystery. I believe there would be some mention of this concern if it still lingered in the present day story line.

We know, or at least we think we know, that Ned lied to Robert, so why would he not reveal these details and make Jon's fate more secure? Ned's tendency to tell as little as possible wouldn't explain such an action to me. He has to construct a believable tale and he has to tell it to at least Robert. These bits of the truth only make the story more believable. My take anyway.

[Dragonfish]

Maybe they received orders from Rhaegar (to me, he seems to be a clever Targaryen and not a mad one so I think he could have made a good plan in case it all wnet wrong) to go to the Tower to keep Lyanna safe and to avoid Ned from rescuing her?

I believe the app confirms that they were ordered by Rhaegar to stay and guard the tower. However, this doesn't explain why they stayed when the person who was supposed to be their king was in danger and without Kingsguard protection. Surely, in a situation in which the protection of the king conflicts with the obsolete orders of a dead prince, the former duty prevails over the latter?

Even so, this doesn't explain the fight. Ned wouldn't go out spreading the truth about Jon like crazy (if that is the reason of the fight).

Are you sure about this? Lyanna didn't appear to be sure what Ned would do until she extracted the promise from him. She was actually afraid until Ned promised (presumably) to protect Jon. And if Lyanna was unsure what Ned would do, then why shouldn't the Kingsguard have been unsure?

I think they just didn't care about Viserys because they knew he had no right to be king so why waste time protecting him?

What do you mean he had no right to be king? If Aegon was dead and Jon was a bastard, then Viserys most certainly was the king in the eyes of those who were loyal to the Targaryens.

[SFDanny]

The ages thread is great. I'm going to go through it all when I have some time. Also, you are right about the Kraken, I just misrembered that part.

No problem, and glad you like the ages thread.

I see your point about the discussion between Ned and Robert, but I think it's a little ambiguous. Does Ned mean that he dishonored Catelyn when Jon was conceived or when Jon was born? If the former, Jon is younger than Robb. If the latter, Jon is older.

I dont' think it ambiguous. The key is he says "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn ..." not Jon's birth dishonored them. Ned takes responsibility, as he always does, for his action of sleeping with another woman, not blaming the birth of the child for his dishonor. I think this is a lie he is telling Robert, but still it is clear he is taking responsibility and it is confirmed in the timeline by not only Robert and his conversation here, but by Catelyn's earlier observation about Ned:

It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off to war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle of Riverrun. Her thought were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. (AGoT 54-55)

There are many ambiguous things in this story, but I don't see this as one of them. Both Ned and Catelyn are consistent in that Ned's story is Jon is conceived after he leaves Catelyn newlywed and pregnant with Robb.

[Ygrain]

I would again go with less is more. When Ned came back, told that he and his group had found them and they were now dead( also about the men he had lost doing it)

Yes, but when asked, he would have to provide some explanation (at least to Robert, who was entitled to extract an answer). The most Ned thing to do, though, would be letting the people themselves make the logical conclusion that the KG were there at Rhaegar's order and didn't learn in time how the situation changed, and do nothing to contradict it, by which he would ascertain that yes, this is how it was ;-)

[Gi_Varotti]

I believe the app confirms that they were ordered by Rhaegar to stay and guard the tower. However, this doesn't explain why they stayed when the person who was supposed to be their king was in danger and without Kingsguard protection. Surely, in a situation in which the protection of the king conflicts with the obsolete orders of a dead prince, the former duty prevails over the latter?

Are you sure about this? Lyanna didn't appear to be sure what Ned would do until she extracted the promise from him. She was actually afraid until Ned promised (presumably) to protect Jon. And if Lyanna was unsure what Ned would do, then why shouldn't the Kingsguard have been unsure?

What do you mean he had no right to be king? If Aegon was dead and Jon was a bastard, then Viserys most certainly was the king in the eyes of those who were loyal to the Targaryens.

I'm an Android owner so I think there's no app for it :dunno: lol.

I really don't know. I just assumed that Ned wouldn't do that.

Maybe the KG knew that Aegon wasn't dead. Maybe they thought it was him in the tower.

[MtnLion]

Maybe the KG knew that Aegon wasn't dead. Maybe they thought it was him in the tower.

When Ned says "your Prince Viserys" in the dialog he is letting them know that as far as he knows Viserys is the last heir. The Kingsguard are at least smart enough to know the difference between a newborn and a year old baby. Aegon was about a year old when King's Landing fell.

[MtnLion]

The presumption that the KG presence at ToJ signifies the presence of a king works only if they are aware that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead. We know they are from their dialogue with Ned, but the rest of the kingdom may assume that they were out of touch and simply followed their last orders from Rhaegar (Ned himself actually may have spread the notion that the KG were unaware of the Sack etc.).

Are we presuming that Ned told someone that he met and killed all of three of thos Kingsguard members in one spot? He was furious with Robert when he left King's Landing to go lift the siege on Storm's End. He may have left it open to conjecture that one or all of them were casualties at Storm's End. Only he and Howland Reed knew about the fight at the tower.

I mention this because we have never seen any accounting of those three being killed being offered to anyone, except Brandon, and it is not clear that locality was mentioned then.

[Twinslayer]

The presumption that the KG presence at ToJ signifies the presence of a king works only if they are aware that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead. We know they are from their dialogue with Ned, but the rest of the kingdom may assume that they were out of touch and simply followed their last orders from Rhaegar (Ned himself actually may have spread the notion that the KG were unaware of the Sack etc.).

This is a good point -- Barristan and Jaime may believe the other KG did not know what had happened to Aerys.

It always struck me as interesting, though, that in the discussion between Ned and the KG, they discuss the fate of Aerys and the location of Viserys but they never mention Aegon. This was one of the original reasons I believed Aegon was in the TOJ and that one of the KG (probably Hightower) was the one who put him there.

I don't have the new app but I am told it confirms that Hightower got to the TOJ before Rhaegar left and that he stayed after Rhaegar was gone. If that is right, it seems unlikely that Hightower took Aegon to the TOJ.

So now I am left wondering what to make of the fact that Aegon's location/fate was not mentioned by Ned or the KG before the fight.

[MtnLion]

This is a good point -- Barristan and Jaime may believe the other KG did not know what had happened to Aerys.

It always struck me as interesting, though, that in the discussion between Ned and the KG, they discuss the fate of Aerys and the location of Viserys but they never mention Aegon. This was one of the original reasons I believed Aegon was in the TOJ and that one of the KG (probably Hightower) was the one who put him there.

I don't have the new app but I am told it confirms that Hightower got to the TOJ before Rhaegar left and that he stayed after Rhaegar was gone. If that is right, it seems unlikely that Hightower took Aegon to the TOJ.

So now I am left wondering what to make of the fact that Aegon's location/fate was not mentioned by Ned or the KG before the fight.

It was mentioned, but the actual words fell out in paraphrasing the scene. The dream that Ned has covers all of the important details, Aerys is dead by Jaime's hand. Rhaegar is dead at the Trident. Then he says that "your Prince Viserys" is at Dragonstone, heavily indicating that Elia and the children are dead as well. We don't need to have another line in the book describing how Aegon's head was crushed and the coprse presented to Robert. Ned may not be up to thinking about the smile that Robert wore when he saw the grisly remains, even in his dream.

[SFDanny]

When Ned says "your Prince Viserys" in the dialog he is letting them know that as far as he knows Viserys is the last heir. The Kingsguard are at least smart enough to know the difference between a newborn and a year old baby. Aegon was about a year old when King's Landing fell.

The only way Aegon being at the tower works is if Jon is there as well. Ned thinks Aegon is dead, but if he only finds a one year old child there, guarded by three members of the Kingsguard, then he doesn't buy any story about the child being the child of a wet nurse. No, a newborn child that Ned sees as the reason for the Kingsguard's presence, along with Lyanna, has to be there if Aegon is to remain hidden.