R+L=J v. 36

[corbon]

Their KG brothers were not in their chain of command but they are all members of a small and elite group. Having Dayne and Whent gone for the better part of a year (at least) and then their LC absent for months must have strained the resources of the remaining KG at KL. When they finally discovered, as they must have, that the KG trio at the ToJ had not even gone to Dragonstone to guard Viserys, surely they must have had questions or suspicions?

Dayne and Whent seem to have been habitually with Rhaegar anyway, so their absence for a long time is not particularly unusual or any extra strain. Much like the detached KG (Arys then Balon) down in Dorne during the books.

How/when must they have discouvered that though?

At least not for a long time, best part of another year, and by then their allegiances have changed.

Again, they could probably figure out that 2-3 of the others were with Lyanna. But so what? Viserys is well down the succession and Rhaegar/Aerys can send the KG on any mission they want to, so long as there are still KG with the King. Why would Jaime or Barristan be particularly bothered about the why of where their fellows were sent?

Varys is the one that I wonder about most. I doubt he had his network as well established as he does by the time our story opens, but really, it doesn't seem that it's very hard to put 2+2 together here. I wonder if he had any little birds at Starfall and knows more about Jon Snow than has been revealed.

I don't think he ever, including currently, had little birds (ie tongueless children) anywhere outside the Red Keep. Outside the Red Keep he just has the normal networks of any spymaster.

And I think it is quite hard to put 2+2 together here. Largely because the answer is already clearly presented as 5, and it appears to be 2+3 , not 2+2.

I'm sure that would satisfy the casual observer in Westeros. But I would think those more intimately involved with the situation would have a lot more questions. Anyway, there doesn't seem to be any answer given in the books so I guess we just have to "keep reading".

Who and why?

There is no one else intimately involved, really. Robert is brutally incurious. Jon Arryn probably respected Ned's privacy. Tywn is too far removed from the facts and too involved in his own successful machinations anyway. Littlefinger is a kid-nobody back in Gull-town or wherever. Doran is involved in other plots, and really from the events at the sack of KL.

And as I pointed out. why would people be more curious anyway.

We have a clear set of facts that lead to a clear 'hidden' answer. Why would anyone dig further? They already have the dirt on Ned who's promptly disappeared back up north to his private political backwoods anyway.

[Old-Growth]

All this puts me in mind of an old saying: it's a wise child who knows its own father. Here of course the mother as well. We still do not know what Ned promised his sister, but only that he has lied over the years to protect the contents thereof and plainly regards it as a solemn duty to go on doing so.

[Twinslayer]

I've been reading through the old threads on R+L-=J; it's funny to see people complaining way back then "that it's now the fourth thread dealing with this and what really more can be discussed?" Hah! If they only knew!

One of the things discussed back then that I haven't seen recently in these threads, is what was the "official" story of what happened at the ToJ? The app tells us that the location wasn't quite as "secret" as we may have been led to believe. What was the official story regarding Lyanna's death?

What do Jaime and Barristan think their KG brothers were doing? Why are the Terrific Trio still viewed with the highest regard when they were not really visible during the war? Did anything about this pique the interest of Varys?

Belandra, this is a great question. I think the "official" story has to be whatever Ned told Robert. I think the discussion in the crypts shows that Ned told Robert he was with Lyanna when she died (Ned "reminded" him"), and that Robert believes that Rhaegar caused Lyanna's death. So how did Ned claim that Rhaegar killed Lyanna from beyond the grave?And did Robert (or Ned) share the story with anyone else?

[Belandra Waters]

Dayne and Whent seem to have been habitually with Rhaegar anyway, so their absence for a long time is not particularly unusual or any extra strain. Much like the detached KG (Arys then Balon) down in Dorne during the books.

How/when must they have discouvered that though?

At least not for a long time, best part of another year, and by then their allegiances have changed.

Again, they could probably figure out that 2-3 of the others were with Lyanna. But so what? Viserys is well down the succession and Rhaegar/Aerys can send the KG on any mission they want to, so long as there are still KG with the King. Why would Jaime or Barristan be particularly bothered about the why of where their fellows were sent?

Sure, no problem to have some of the KG away during peacetime, but during a war when the Targaryen dynasty is facing a threat to its very existence, especially when Rhaegar returns without three of them? Barristan may have deliberately avoided the issue because of his old-school thinking, but if Jaime knew they were guarding Lyanna at a remote location in Dorne, and becomes aware that after the sack of KL, that not one of his KG brothers at the ToJ thought it necessary to go to Dragonstone, and thereby were not fulfilling their vows, I would think that he might start asking questions. Or discuss it with Tywin.

I don't think he ever, including currently, had little birds (ie tongueless children) anywhere outside the Red Keep. Outside the Red Keep he just has the normal networks of any spymaster.

You're right, no little birds in Dorne, but still a spy network (possibly).

And I think it is quite hard to put 2+2 together here. Largely because the answer is already clearly presented as 5, and it appears to be 2+3 , not 2+2.

Sorry, not sure what you mean.

[Belandra Waters]

Belandra, this is a great question. I think the "official" story has to be whatever Ned told Robert. I think the discussion in the crypts shows that Ned told Robert he was with Lyanna when she died (Ned "reminded" him"), and that Robert believes that Rhaegar caused Lyanna's death. So how did Ned claim that Rhaegar killed Lyanna from beyond the grave?And did Robert (or Ned) share the story with anyone else?

I wonder if Ned was the source of what Robert believes about Rhaegar and Lyanna?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I wonder if Ned was the source of what Robert believes about Rhaegar and Lyanna?

Sometimes I wonder if Ned even told Robert anything — whether he actually said, "Rhaegar killed Lyanna," or if he came back with her bones and just said, "Lyanna is dead" and let Robert draw his own conclusions, never bothering to correct him or elaborate. I'm thinking that the more Ned talked, the likelier it was that something about Lyanna's pregnancy would accidentally slip. The thing about Ned is, he doesn't really lie unless he absolutely has to. Even when Catelyn asked about Jon, all Ned said was, "He is of my blood," or something. Didn't really even confirm that Jon was his son; just a conclusion that Catelyn and everyone else drew.

[SFDanny]

Maybe it's no one's place to question, but don't you think people wondered? I'm thinking especially of Jaime, Barristan and Varys. Surely Jaime and Barristan must have wondered where their KG brothers were and why? Whatever the mission was, it was important enough to leave only Jaime to guard all members of the Royal Family at the Red Keep, and Varys would want to know the details, too...no?

When Ned returns to King's Landing and tells Robert of Lyanna's death he must have told him of the deaths of the Ser Arthur, Hightower, and Whent. Some of this news probably precedes him from Starfall via raven to Varys. What exactly Ned tells Robert about the encounter with the Kingsguard is unknown, but something of the deaths of the three and Ned's companions, along with Lyanna must have been given by Ned as an account of the events at the Tower of Joy.

To me, I like to think this report is what determines Ser Barristan's fate. We know he was badly hurt at the Trident, so much of this time he is likely in recovery. We don't know all the reasons why he decides to join Robert's Kingsguard, but I think when he hears his three brothers are dead I think he must have decided that a course to be the last loyal white cloak in service to a mad young Targaryen in exile was too much for him. So, yes, I think he thinks on their deaths a considerable lot. We just don't know yet what he thought.

Both Ser Barristan and Jaime likely knew that Rhaegar set the trio to guard Lyanna, but beyond that, questions of why he did so, or where they were are likely unanswered until Ned makes his report. The why of the orders may have troubled both men, but both also know Rhaegar loved Lyanna, or at least it seems so.

As to others, I don't doubt Varys investigates Ned's report and probably doesn't believe it all. A report seems to have been made about the events that is reflected in both Stannis's comment about a fishwife to Jon, and by Cersei's comments to Ned about who Jon's mother is, and why Lady Ashara killed herself.

The question is what can Varys prove? Not a lot. He may have wanted to be able to sow distrust between Ned and Robert about Ned's account, but what can he turn up that will positively show Ned lies to Robert? That there is a wet nurse in Starfall who claims to be Jon's mother? Ned already told Robert that. That there are tales from the Sisters that Ned fathered a child with a fisherman's daughter? Who may or may not be the same Wylla? What gets him information that he can lay before Robert that says Jon is not Ned's son, but is Rhaegar and Lyanna's? Nothing. He needs an eye witness and all the eye witnesses are either dead, or corroborate Ned's account (Wylla and the Daynes,) or aren't talking (Howland.) And in the end, Robert wants to believe Ned, and Ned poses no threat to anyone in King's Landing as long as he stays in the North. If Ned had brought Jon south with him all that may have changed, but Lord Stark was smart enough to know he couldn't do that.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Sometimes I wonder if Ned even told Robert anything — whether he actually said, "Rhaegar killed Lyanna," or if he came back with her bones and just said, "Lyanna is dead" and let Robert draw his own conclusions, never bothering to correct him or elaborate. I'm thinking that the more Ned talked, the likelier it was that something about Lyanna's pregnancy would accidentally slip. The thing about Ned is, he doesn't really lie unless he absolutely has to. Even when Catelyn asked about Jon, all Ned said was, "He is of my blood," or something. Didn't really even confirm that Jon was his son; just a conclusion that Catelyn and everyone else drew.

I 100% agree. I don't think Ned knew how to lie, but he knew how to keep his mouth shout, and let people believe what they wanted to.

[niamh]

I've been reading through the old threads on R+L-=J; it's funny to see people complaining way back then "that it's now the fourth thread dealing with this and what really more can be discussed?" Hah! If they only knew!

One of the things discussed back then that I haven't seen recently in these threads, is what was the "official" story of what happened at the ToJ? The app tells us that the location wasn't quite as "secret" as we may have been led to believe. What was the official story regarding Lyanna's death?

What do Jaime and Barristan think their KG brothers were doing? Why are the Terrific Trio still viewed with the highest regard when they were not really visible during the war? Did anything about this pique the interest of Varys?

Great question. For a start the Kingsguard was Aerys' and not Rhaegar's, and in any case, even if they took orders from Rhaegar in this case, they were nowhere near him when he died. I notice there didn't seem to be a lot of KG power in attendance to stop Gregor and his atrocities.

There is a soliloquy (by Selmy? not sure) in Feast or Dance about the duties of the KG though, and the various ways it can be interpreted, and whether they should just protect the king/queen or whoever else they ask said KG to protect.

It is indeed puzzling that the 3 most revered Kingsguards seem to have done nothing of note without having lost their precious reputations.

[dragontamer]

Tell you the truth, i'd rather at this stage that jon was Brandon's and Ashara's and the rightful heir of winterfell, but while it explains Ned's silence to catelyn, it doesn't explain the promise to Lyanna (which caused him to live lies for 14 years as he himself recalls) or anything else at all.

If Jon was Brandon's son he would still be a bastard not the rightful heir. Edric Storm was acknowledged By Robert but he is still a Storm not a Baratheon.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

The kraken is a good example of a line thrown in that fills out the world, and nothing more. This isn't remotely like that. The whole reason for the Davos chapter is to tell the fisherman's daughter's tale, it seems to me. There is nothing else in it that really is necessary to move the story forward. Why not have Davos land in White Harbor, if this conversation isn't important? No reason that I can think of.

I think the chapter and the stop have a lot of reasons

1. Shows Stannis' waning power as Salladhor Saan leaves him
   
2. Fills out our view of the world and how the kingdom views Cersei, gives us more about how Stannis' brittle character has him viewed in the realm and also shows how a lot of lords take a pragmatic view to the conflicts that are taking place.
   
3. Introduces us to the House Borrell and their Crab sigil. Being close to White Harbour and the merman this has something (in my opinion) to do with the Patchface prophecy
   'Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs'.
   I've seen an argument that the 'starfish' are the hands of the guy Manderley killed as a pretend Davos. Though I'm not convinced about that I do think the 2 houses are so close (geographically and in terms of the story) that there is a link through the Patchface prophesy, which I believe is still to come.
   
4. Gives us a more fleshed out idea of how Ned got to the North and the start of the rebellion. Also again the pragmatic attitude a lot of Lords (great and small) took to that rebellion
   
5. Gives us another alternative theory for Jon's parentage and shows how Ned's wall of silence has created a lot of rumours. From this we can guess that there are likely to be a lot of other local rumours out there as well.
   

So overall I'd say the chapter gives us a lot and is not just filler but I don't think the FIsherman's Daughter story is going to be of huge importance

[Bear Island Bruiser]

If Jon was Brandon's son he would still be a bastard not the rightful heir. Edric Storm was acknowledged By Robert but he is still a Storm not a Baratheon.

Unless they had a secret marriage....at this point there is as much to say that this marriage took place as did the one between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

[Ygrain]

Unless they had a secret marriage....at this point there is as much to say that this marriage took place as did the one between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi.

Brandon is not a Targ, and his soon to happen marriage to Catelyn would have been impossible if he had already said his vows. Also, Ashara wouldn't have been dishonoured and the Daynes would have pressed for the marriage to be publically acknowledged.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi.

Brandon is not a Targ, and his soon to happen marriage to Catelyn would have been impossible if he had already said his vows. Also, Ashara wouldn't have been dishonoured and the Daynes would have pressed for the marriage to be publically acknowledged.

Yeah I'm not exactly being serious with this one.....

[dragontamer]

Unless they had a secret marriage....at this point there is as much to say that this marriage took place as did the one between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

I hope you are joking...... no, actually I pray that you are joking!! :eek:

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I hope you are joking...... no, actually I pray that you are joking!! :eek:

JOKING?!? JOKING?!? How very dare you. I'm completely serious on that one. Yep definitely serious :leer:

[corbon]

Sure, no problem to have some of the KG away during peacetime, but during a war when the Targaryen dynasty is facing a threat to its very existence, especially when Rhaegar returns without three of them? Barristan may have deliberately avoided the issue because of his old-school thinking, but if Jaime knew they were guarding Lyanna at a remote location in Dorne, and becomes aware that after the sack of KL, that not one of his KG brothers at the ToJ thought it necessary to go to Dragonstone, and thereby were not fulfilling their vows, I would think that he might start asking questions. Or discuss it with Tywin.

"Not going to Dragonstone" isn't a known thing though, and this is the error in your train of thought. All that is known is that they had a mission, Dayne at least (and probably the others) is dead. There is no point in time that is known by anyone when the missing three should supposedly have headed to Dragonstone but didn't. Nor is it known that they didn't die trying to do exactly that.

Sorry, not sure what you mean.

The point of our discussion is why aren't people more curious about Ned, Jon Snow, Lyanna et al and the mysterious post war events.

2+2 is the 'truth' about Jon being Lyanna's and Ned's treason hiding a Targ heir from Robert.

The reason nobody bothers with figuring out 2+2 is they already have a 2+3 'secret' - Ned's shameful bastard's mother was Ashara Dayne, who killed herself when he took away their son, Jon. This is the natural conclusion when people "know":

i) Ned killed Arthur Dayne, losing 5 of his friends doing so, and return the sword Dawn to Starfall

ii) Jon's first appearance is out of starfall

iii) Ashara commited suicide when Ned was there, or soon after

and possibly

iv) old history of Ashara and a Stark at Harrenhal where she was originally dishonoured.

Its a neat little package, even if Ned admits nothing and it remains 'unofficial'. So people, inquisitive people, have 'found' the secret and moved on. The truth is 2+2. The appearnce is 2+3. Officially there is no equation, but smart people can figure out 2+3 and be satisfied.

When Ned returns to King's Landing and tells Robert of Lyanna's death he must have told him of the deaths of the Ser Arthur, Hightower, and Whent.

Some of this news probably precedes him from Starfall via raven to Varys. What exactly Ned tells Robert about the encounter with the Kingsguard is unknown, but something of the deaths of the three and Ned's companions, along with Lyanna must have been given by Ned as an account of the events at the Tower of Joy.

Why must he?

I can see it more along the lines of Ned telling Robert very very little, and Robert asking even less. They are making up, sort of. Taciturn (Ned) and blokey (Robert) blokes don't tend do do that ... volubly. A simple conversation:

[robert]So, returned Dawn to the Daynes, eh. Arthur is dead then?

[ned] Yep

[robert] You killed him? Must of been some fight?

[ned] We did. Lost Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Mark Ryswell. Good men.

[robert] Good friends and true

...

[robert] And Lyanna?

[ned] She died in my arms Robert.

[robert]...

I don't believe Ned ever reported any more than that about ToJ.

Lyanna died in his arms, Arthur Dayne is dead. Period.

[Gi_Varotti]

So where is Ned's real bastard now, & why do people think Jon is it?

I think there's NO Ned's bastard.

Certainly some part of it is true, but the core of the story concerning the birth of Jon Snow is demonstrably a lie. We know it is a lie because of the remarks Martin has made about Jon's age relative to Daenerys's age and the material in the series that places Robb's conception before Jon's.

Their ages are a bit confusing to me. Do Robb, Jon and Dany have close/the same ages or not?

When Ned joined Robert's Rebellion he and Cat were just married and he left her pregnant (Robb) when he went to the war? (or have I got this totally wrong?). And it's said that Jon and Robb are of the same age because Ned fathered him on the fisherwoman (I don't believe this).

So was he lying about Jon's age? If he and Dany's ages are relative, is Jon an year or a some months younger or older than Robb? Because when Ned returned home with a baby, or something like that, and told Cat that he was his bastard son, has Robb been already born or not?

Sometimes I wonder if Ned even told Robert anything — whether he actually said, "Rhaegar killed Lyanna," or if he came back with her bones and just said, "Lyanna is dead" and let Robert draw his own conclusions, never bothering to correct him or elaborate. I'm thinking that the more Ned talked, the likelier it was that something about Lyanna's pregnancy would accidentally slip. The thing about Ned is, he doesn't really lie unless he absolutely has to. Even when Catelyn asked about Jon, all Ned said was, "He is of my blood," or something. Didn't really even confirm that Jon was his son; just a conclusion that Catelyn and everyone else drew.

I think Ned said that Lyanna was dead. He could have told Robert that all Cersei's kids weren't his when he was dying but he didn't have the guts to do so. Maybe he said nothing in fear than Robert's would have the boy killed.

As for the secret marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, I don't think it happened but Rhaegar knew something. He was hardly interested in sword play but that suddenly changed when he read a certain book. I think he discovered about AA and the prophecy and decided/thought it was him. Elia couldn't have no more children but he was up to father one more - as he said "the dragon has 3 heads, so there must be one more".

[Ygrain]

Their ages are a bit confusing to me. Do Robb, Jon and Dany have close/the same ages or not?

When Ned joined Robert's Rebellion he and Cat were just married and he left her pregnant (Robb) when he went to the war? (or have I got this totally wrong?). And it's said that Jon and Robb are of the same age because Ned fathered him on the fisherwoman (I don't believe this).

So was he lying about Jon's age? If he and Dany's ages are relative, is Jon an year or a some months younger or older than Robb? Because when Ned returned home with a baby, or something like that, and told Cat that he was his bastard son, has Robb been already born or not?

First, the rebellion started when Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn should send him Ned and Robert's head. Fighting in the Vale ensued and after that, ned and RObert went to call their banners. Some more fighting, and Hoster Tully joins the rebellion, at the cost of Ned marrying Cat and Jon Arryn Lysa. Robb is conceived on Ned and Cat's wedding night. The whole rebellion lasts for about a year, so Robb must have been born towards its end.

Dany is conceived the night before Rhaella left KL, which is shortly before the Sack of KL, and is born 9 months later. Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. It is unclear whether he was really born after Robb or not but either way, he must looks plausibly of an age or younger than Robb while still an infant when a single month or two make a huge difference.

As for the secret marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, I don't think it happened but Rhaegar knew something. He was hardly interested in sword play but that suddenly changed when he read a certain book. I think he discovered about AA and the prophecy and decided/thought it was him. Elia couldn't have no more children but he was up to father one more - as he said "the dragon has 3 heads, so there must be one more".

If the marriage never happened, then Viserys is the next in the succession line and the three KG are breaking their vow dawdling down in the south instead of sending at least one of their number to him. Only, they repeatedly emphasize that they keep their vow as KG, so if they are keeping their vows, Viserys is not a king, and Viserys is not king only under the condition that there is a living son of Rhaegar somewhere around. With Aegon dead, Jon is the only remaining candidate.

[Gi_Varotti]

If the marriage never happened, then Viserys is the next in the succession line and the three KG are breaking their vow dawdling down in the south instead of sending at least one of their number to him. Only, they repeatedly emphasize that they keep their vow as KG, so if they are keeping their vows, Viserys is not a king, and Viserys is not king only under the condition that there is a living son of Rhaegar somewhere around. With Aegon dead, Jon is the only remaining candidate.

Thanks, that helped me a lot figuring out their ages :)

Viserys believed he was the rightful king but then he was also a fool. So do you think the KG knew about the marriage? Could have Varys known about it? Otherwise, I hardly think he'd be behind the plot to hide Aegon... if Aegon is really Aegon. Now I hope he is because I don't want to see Jon being king of anything. The Night's Watch is so much funnier and cooler (no pun intended).