Gun Control 3

[KhaleesiDany]

Gun related homicides 2008: US 9,484. Japan 11.

Gun related homicides 2007: US 10,086. Japan 22.

Gun related homicides 2006: US 10,225. Japan 2.

1) Japan is an island.

2) Japanese society is very different from US. The US puts a strong value on individualism and personal freedom. Japanese value structure and cooperation.

3) Japanese have a very different history related to guns. It dates back to the introduction of guns in and their superiority over ritualized cultural fighting techniques.

The Japanese law also prohibits swords. It dates back to a time when sword fought gun. It was a weapons ban.

[SerMixalot]

Our nation needs to look deeply into its heart to examine and understand why these things happen. I believe they happen because America is a seriously dysfunctional nation. 30+% of americans believe severe weather is gods wrath or some such nonsense, liberals reelected a president that drones people relentlessly, kills american citizens,renditions etc. Neither side is pure. Ever been to a football game or hockey match? The level of intensity over violence is incredible. Actions like today are tied to this violent society we have, incredibly high incarceration, wealth inequality, the fact that we face a fiscal cliff because politicians cant come to a common sense solution, all of these things go to a basic, deep dysfunction in our society, a skizophrenic nature where we have ultra conservative people and sexualization of children (I have been examining the lyrics of commonly played pop songs and thinking objectively of my 9 year old daughter listening to them and am amazed at what goes out over the airwaves), where violence is commonplace on TV and in movies. I am not advocating censorship, just pointing out facts that exist today. From the casual acceptance of torture to the demonization of people who have differing political viewpoints it is all tied together all symptoms in our national dysfunction. I am not advocating going back to the 50s or censorship or anything, but simple notions like compassion, kindness, advocating for peace, treating others as we would like to be treated. Somehow we need to gain those virtues. I simply dont know how to go about it on a national scale. Perhaps the psychic blow of 9/11 has made us to fearful to be nice, perhaps it goes back to the greed of the 80s or to the disillusion of the Vietnam War and Watergate, but something needs to be done, we are falling apart as a nation.

Yes I am aware this post is rambling, but that is the mood I am in.

[Ravenhair]

White middle-class people tend to think of metal detectors as "bad", but the students at the urban, inner-city school where I teach love the metal detectors. They love being able to feel safe at school. I'm not saying that makes it "OK", just another point of view. They feel more confident and safe about coming to school, and this is a school where truancy can be a problem.

The schools I'm referring to are all in the city, not the suburbs. Here, you can have a more typically urban public school with metal detectors one block away from a private school with private security guards and no metal detectors. It is good, though, that the students at your school love the metal detectors and feel safe at school. All children should feel feel safe at school, and the fact that they don't or can't is horrible. I have nothing against metal detectors per se; I was just pointing out the thoughts here with regards to schools that have them. As I indicated, I believe that mentality will change.

Eta: night typing suckage

[maize]

1) Japan is an island.

2) Japanese society is very different from US. The US puts a strong value on individualism and personal freedom. Japanese value structure and cooperation.

3) Japanese have a very different history related to guns. It dates back to the introduction of guns in and their superiority over ritualized cultural fighting techniques.

The Japanese law also prohibits swords. It dates back to a time when sword fought gun. It was a weapons ban.

Uh no. I KNOW Japanese people. They're just like you and me. Mass murderers have nothing to do with structure, cooperation, individualism, and personal freedom. It's mostly about depression and mental illness which they have no shortage of. If anything, valuing structure and others above individualism breeds mental depression. That and easy access to guns. The only difference is that Japan does not provide the means for an easy mass murder.

[SerMixalot]

I heard on the radio someone advocating for security officers in schools, seems like a commonsense approach, boost security over access to the school. THe problem being is that schools are places that have people going and coming all the time and it would be extremely difficult to control people without being intrusive. As has been pointed out, once the door was buzzed open, nothing could have stopped this tragedy, he started shooting as soon as he got in as far as I can tell. Metal detectors, even a security guard probably wouldnt have helped,

[Ravenhair]

I always seem to be on the opposite side of the fence in the genchat threads so I'm prepared to get chewed out for my opinions, but here we go:

Hubby was in an outdoors store last week and overheard the manager trying to explain to an irrate customer why he couldn't purchase a shotgun. Apparently gun manufacturers are putting a halt to gun making in anticipation that Obama will try to change the constitution and second amendment in some way of another. IF, and I stress IF this is the case our country will be starting on a slippery slope (meaning, change one amendment now, more will be altered later).

Now, in the cases of these mass shootings it seems to me that the problem isn't necessarily the guns but the lack of mental health support, facilities, trained personnel, etc. It seems obvious to me that anyone walking into a mall, school, movie theatre or any venue intending to kill people randomly is more than likely suffering from mental health issues. A sane person does not decide one day to kill their mother and then go to an elementary school and kill 26 adults and children. The problem with this is that even trained professionals are unable to determine who is going to snap or when. My belief is that it starts at home and parents that may sense something is amiss with their children should speak to a professional about it as soon as possible. I realize that there are holes in this theory but it just seems like people, all people, have to be hyper aware of everything and everyone around them (including their families) because you just never know.

I know this thread is about gun control, so I will put my .02 cents in and say that banning guns won't solve the problem. There are always ways for people to get guns. Countries that ban guns still have huge problems with them anyway. I would love to see a system in which potential gun buyers are given a psychological background test but that's never going to happen because its impossible to implement. And although background checks help, some people with mental health issues do not have a criminal background and will not be flagged. And therefore qualify to purchase a gun. And then there are folks who will buy a gun for someone unable to buy one of their own for a nice profit.

I read in another thread that in china today 22 kids were killed (injured ) by stabbing. I haven't looked it up to verify it, but if that is true, obviously people without gun access will find other options.

I wish I knew what made people snap like they do. It would be great to have a way to help them to prevent these horrible massacres.

Edited for clearness (hopefully) and poor grammar.

No chewing out, Lady O; you are thoughtful and analytical in formulating your beliefs. Plus, your dad has the best cursing of anyone I know :)

[Lady Olenna]

Our nation needs to look deeply into its heart to examine and understand why these things happen. I believe they happen because America is a seriously dysfunctional nation. 30+% of americans believe severe weather is gods wrath or some such nonsense, liberals reelected a president that drones people relentlessly, kills american citizens,renditions etc. Neither side is pure. Ever been to a football game or hockey match? The level of intensity over violence is incredible. Actions like today are tied to this violent society we have, incredibly high incarceration, wealth inequality, the fact that we face a fiscal cliff because politicians cant come to a common sense solution, all of these things go to a basic, deep dysfunction in our society, a skizophrenic nature where we have ultra conservative people and sexualization of children (I have been examining the lyrics of commonly played pop songs and thinking objectively of my 9 year old daughter listening to them and am amazed at what goes out over the airwaves), where violence is commonplace on TV and in movies. I am not advocating censorship, just pointing out facts that exist today. From the casual acceptance of torture to the demonization of people who have differing political viewpoints it is all tied together all symptoms in our national dysfunction. I am not advocating going back to the 50s or censorship or anything, but simple notions like compassion, kindness, advocating for peace, treating others as we would like to be treated. Somehow we need to gain those virtues. I simply dont know how to go about it on a national scale. Perhaps the psychic blow of 9/11 has made us to fearful to be nice, perhaps it goes back to the greed of the 80s or to the disillusion of the Vietnam War and Watergate, but something needs to be done, we are falling apart as a nation.

Yes I am aware this post is rambling, but that is the mood I am in.

It makes sense to me.

We have raised generations of narcissists that are incapable of believing that they are not born entitled to everything and take accountability for none of their actions.

At least, that's what I see when I go outside.

[Leviathan I]

1) Japan is an island.

2) Japanese society is very different from US. The US puts a strong value on individualism and personal freedom. Japanese value structure and cooperation.

3) Japanese have a very different history related to guns. It dates back to the introduction of guns in and their superiority over ritualized cultural fighting techniques.

The Japanese law also prohibits swords. It dates back to a time when sword fought gun. It was a weapons ban.

It doesn't matter what their topography, societal structure and history is. People are people. there are always going to be people who want to kill other people. Handing out assault weapons and copious amounts of ammunition to everyone isn't such a great idea.

[SerMixalot]

The solution has to come from the people though, gun control laws or whatever wont work if they are seen as coming from the government as it will be viewed as oppressive. Change has to come from the people demanding change, demanding civility demanding peace, demanding accountability. We the people have to change, no law will ever save us.

[SerMixalot]

It makes sense to me.

We have raised generations of narcissists that are incapable of believing that they are not born entitled to everything and take accountability for none of their actions.

At least, that's what I see when I go outside.

ALot of truth in that, and the irony comes from the fact that that narcissism comes from love, loving our children and wanting them to be happy and love themselves, we forget that learning humility and hard work are essential tools to being well adjusted.

[KhaleesiDany]

Uh no. I KNOW Japanese people. They're just like you and me. Mass murderers have nothing to do with structure, cooperation, individualism, and personal freedom. It's mostly about depression and mental illness which they have no shortage of. If anything, valuing structure and others above individualism breeds mental depression. That and easy access to guns. The only difference is that Japan does not provide the means for an easy mass murder.

i don't think that is the only difference. those differences i mentioned do matter.

japan has a different attitude towards guns than the us. it is easier to enforce a weapons ban there because of the topography.

japan still has seriously violent crimes. i just dont think what you are suggesting is realistic or a solution to the actual problem. symptomatic cure.

[maize]

Hopefully soon the discussion can turn to, if it is possible, HOW we get rid of the 300 million guns in our society. Especially from the criminal element. That alone would be a major step.

If that's not feasible, well, lets starting arming and armoring everything.

[maize]

i don't think that is the only difference. those differences i mentioned do matter.

japan has a different attitude towards guns than the us. it is easier to enforce a weapons ban there because of the topography.

japan still has seriously violent crimes. i just dont think what you are suggesting is realistic or a solution to the actual problem. symptomatic cure.

Japan isn't some person to have a different attitudes towards guns. A crazy Japanese is the same as a crazy American. Just in Japan they won't have access to guns. Japan does have violent crimes, just nothing that approaches the Wisconsin, Oregon, Newport, and Colorado shootings.

The problem is simple. Mental breakdowns plus access to guns. Take one or the other away and the kids would be alive.

[andrew_]

If you were educated as you were growing up about gun safety I can understand how you can think guns keep people safe, but there are millions of people out there who didn't receive training, who don't feel comfortable being around guns let alone firing them. The simple answer is to change the legislation and ban civilians from carrying firearms. All this debating doesn't change the fact that 20+ people died yesterday because some psychopath had legal and easy access to firearms.

[maize]

Anyone know how far we're away from developing taser guns that can load and shoot electric charges fairly similar to a gun? It would only have to be accurate to shoot as far as 30 feet or however big your house is. Having an alternative that is effective enough against home intruders is essential for any realistic gun ban imo.

[Lord of Oop North]

Hubby was in an outdoors store last week and overheard the manager trying to explain to an irrate customer why he couldn't purchase a shotgun. Apparently gun manufacturers are putting a halt to gun making in anticipation that Obama will try to change the constitution and second amendment in some way of another. IF, and I stress IF this is the case our country will be starting on a slippery slope (meaning, change one amendment now, more will be altered later).

What.

[Horza]

Yeah, once you start amending amendments the entire fabric of society collapses, which is why it's a good thing nothing like that has ever happened.

[Durckad]

At least one amendment has already been repealed so I think maybe someone just forgot to grease the slope.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Horza because I'm too damn slow.

[andrew_]

Its said he stole the weapons from a women and killed her too. Making the total death toll 28

[maize]

Well I don't think the British are invading anymore, we've won the Indian wars(or genocide), and revenged the Alamo. Unless Canada is secretly going to invade, I think the founding fathers won't mind the change.