butterbumps! Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Why are we asking if Cersei "would do it all again"? Shouldn't we be asking if Robert, whose actions directly led to Cersei's, "would do it all again"?No, because Cersei is a grown woman and made a choice to take control over her body. She's not being raked over the coals for this in this particular thread, as it's being discussed as a neutral hypothetical.But aegon invading a united realm is just a minor annoyance.Which is another factor in my point that nothing would be the same if there was no twincest. The Twincest ruined non-Lannister families, and between that and the Lannister's own self destructive course, aided by LF and Varys, the realm is not unified. This would have been much harder had there been no incest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Why are we asking if Cersei "would do it all again"? Shouldn't we be asking if Robert, whose actions directly led to Cersei's, "would do it all again"?I don't think so, because we know that Robert would. :PIMO that's why Lyanna went with Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jons nissa Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Why are we asking if Cersei "would do it all again"? Shouldn't we be asking if Robert, whose actions directly led to Cersei's, "would do it all again"?robert is not to blame for cersei. she is who she is because of many factors, as are we all. she may have made some moves in response to some of robert's moves, however, the bigger issues as illustrated by butterbumps are all her own:The Lannisters subsequently ran themselves into the ground through completely unnecessary power plays amongst themselves, and as well as poor decisions in terms of intrigue (Cersei's huge blunder was being so visibly against the Tyrells, pushing away potential alliances, and of course, the idiocy with the HS/ framing Marg). The realm was ready to move on, but Cersei just could not help herself. The Lannisters generally self-destructed, but it wasn't quite due to the incest. eta:yes, cersei would do it all again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Why are we asking if Cersei "would do it all again"? Shouldn't we be asking if Robert, whose actions directly led to Cersei's, "would do it all again"?No. She would not have Robert's children even if he were someone like Ned. Maybe she wouldn't hate him, but she'd still have Jamie's kids, or at least Joff the firstborn.And given that we're talking about a woman who was capable of killing a childhood friend, I wouldn't put anything past her. It's nice to think that Cersei is nothing but the product of her environment, but she's got a streak of cruelty paralleled only by Tywin. And get real. He abused her. She killed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 No. She would not have Robert's children even if he were someone like Ned. Maybe she wouldn't hate him, but she'd still have Jamie's kids, or at least Joff the firstborn.No, actually. If Robert had not been so awful, chances are that she would give him an heir. Would she not have an affair with Jaime? Of course she would, but she may not have been so reckless in her treason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top12Gun Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 IMO, she would change nothing except the part where she gets caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 No, actually. If Robert had not been so awful, chances are that she would give him an heir. Would she not have an affair with Jaime? Of course she would, but she may not have been so reckless in her treason.Why would she be less reckless in her subsequent actions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I doubt even if robert were a better person she would have had his kids. Jaime was her one true love(odd I know) its sad they could not be together but not giving robert a kid was messed up and led to alot of destruction and death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 No, actually. If Robert had not been so awful, chances are that she would give him an heir. Would she not have an affair with Jaime? Of course she would, but she may not have been so reckless in her treason.Given that every action she undertakes has to have a degree of recklessness, even when people are benevolent towards her, I believe she would have caused a catastrophe one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Why would she be less reckless in her subsequent actions?Not AFfC, I meant, she wouldn't have hated him as she doess. Joff, Tommen and Mycella are part of her revenge after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jons nissa Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 No, actually. If Robert had not been so awful, chances are that she would give him an heir. Would she not have an affair with Jaime? Of course she would, but she may not have been so reckless in her treason.I doubt even if robert were a better person she would have had his kids. Jaime was her one true love(odd I know) its sad they could not be together but not giving robert a kid was messed up and led to alot of destruction and death.i agree that she most likely would have had at least one of robert's children. what's hard to determine is joffrey. would she still have felt slighted at robert comforting his childhood friend? probably. from the text, it is clear she wants revenge on him for his actions. there would still have been problems with the children's legitimacy. and she would never give up jaime. she shows that on her wedding day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Not AFfC, I meant, she wouldn't have hated him as she doess. Joff, Tommen and Mycella are part of her revenge after all.I don't see what that would have changed though. I don't believe that she would have had one of Robert's anyway because she loved Jaime. If she did, then she "wouldn't be Cersei," as Tyrion says. Cersei didn't become Cersei only after Robert; I strongly think that everything that makes Cersei deliciously Cersei was in place since she was a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 i agree that she most likely would have had at least one of robert's children. what's hard to determine is joffrey. would she still have felt slighted at robert comforting his childhood friend? probably. from the text, it is clear she wants revenge on him for his actions. there would still have been problems with the children's legitimacy. and she would never give up jaime. she shows that on her wedding day.'comforting his childhood friend'. Oh Robert. She would have fucked Jamie that night, and he would have fucked that friend of his, unavoidable. In a way Cersei and Robert deserved each other like no other couple.If it takes a perfect man (+half of another perfect man) for Cersei to simply not bear Jamie's kids, even though she'd still cheat, something is off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I don't see what that would have changed though. I don't believe that she would have had one of Robert's anyway because she loved Jaime. If she did, then she "wouldn't be Cersei," as Tyrion says. Cersei didn't become Cersei only after Robert; I strongly think that everything that makes Cersei deliciously Cersei was in place since she was a child.This, she's already done one of her worst acts as a child. Why put anything past her after that? She clearly hasn't had any character development in the empathy area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jons nissa Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Not AFfC, I meant, she wouldn't have hated him as she doess. Joff, Tommen and Mycella are part of her revenge after all.actually what starts the hatred is his calling out lyanna's name on their wedding night. while i think this would be completely horrific (don't know what i'd do in that situation) that is when she dedided to harden her heart to him. that was him being human. it was an arranged marriage and he thought himself "in love" with lyanna. he was not being callous or mean but still, it was a horrible moment. she would have (and did) hated him no matter how nice he was after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 It is not logical to assume that given a different set of circumstances, characters would react as they do now. If Robert had been more discreet, if he had respected Cersei and not antagonised her, chances are that she would return the favour and bear his heirs. I am not saying that she wouldn't have had an affair with Jaime-like Robert she'd have been unfaithful. What I am saying is that, had he not given her reason to hate and resent him, she would not have hated and resented him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 No. She would not have Robert's children even if he were someone like Ned. Maybe she wouldn't hate him, but she'd still have Jamie's kids, or at least Joff the firstborn.She only made Jaime father her children after Robert raped her and cheated on her, actually.And get real. He abused her. She killed him. And it was the greatest thing she's ever done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 yea that moment of "OH LYANNA!!!" Really did him in, how akward he must have been like :blushing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jons nissa Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 It is not logical to assume that given a different set of circumstances, characters would react as they do now. If Robert had been more discreet, if he had respected Cersei and not antagonised her, chances are that she would return the favour and bear his heirs.I am not saying that she wouldn't have had an affair with Jaime-like Robert she'd have been unfaithful. What I am saying is that, had he not given her reason to hate and resent him, she would not have hated and resented him.she hated him for an action he committed almost reflexively. there was truly no malice behind his calling for lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 actually what starts the hatred is his calling out lyanna's name on their wedding night. while i think this would be completely horrific (don't know what i'd do in that situation) that is when she dedided to harden her heart to him. that was him being human. it was an arranged marriage and he thought himself "in love" with lyanna. he was not being callous or mean but still, it was a horrible moment. she would have (and did) hated him no matter how nice he was after that.But that wasn't when she started cheating on him. It is not just the first offence (Lyanna), it is the rape, his rough treatment of her, his refusal to own up to it (It wasn't me my lady, it was the wine ) that led to her treason. If it had stopped at Lyanna, if he had tried, why do you assume that she'd have reacted the same way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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