Think Cersei would do it all again?

[PatrickStormborn]

yea that moment of "OH LYANNA!!!" Really did him in, how akward he must have been like :blushing:

I don't think Robert felt awkward about it at all. The only person I feel sorry for in that moment is Cersei (and Lyanna too, but luckily she escaped Robert).

[straits]

She only made Jaime father her children after Robert raped her and cheated on her, actually.

And it was the greatest thing she's ever done.

Robert's guilty of all the rape that most other male nobles are in Westeros. His other physical abuses of her are linked to the issue, though.

And it probably is the greatest thing she's ever done. That's horrid. Robert's greatest deeds were in his mercy towards enemies, Cersei's greatest deed is a self-serving murder.

[jons nissa]

yea that moment of "OH LYANNA!!!" Really did him in, how akward he must have been like :blushing:

and yet, it was their first time together and not a love match for either of them. awkward, yes. but it shouldn't have been the death knell. the more i think about it, the more i think it might be yet another character parallel. robert calls out a woman's name and cersei shuts herself off. ned comes home with a living breathing bastard child and cat finds a way to fall in love with him.

[E-Ro]

I don't think Robert felt awkward about it at all. The only person I feel sorry for in that moment is Cersei (and Lyanna too, but luckily she escaped Robert).

Lol, I dont feel bad for him but he must have felt a tad akward in that moment, I mean who wouldnt?

[Winter's Knight]

she hated him for an action he committed almost reflexively. there was truly no malice behind his calling for lyanna.

I'm sure this had nothing to do with her hate at all:

Those had been the worst nights, lying helpless underneath him as he took his pleasure, stinking of wine and grunting like a boar. Usually he rolled off and went to sleep as soon as it was done, and was snoring before his seed could dry upon her thighs. She was always sore afterward, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them. The only time he’d ever made her wet was on their wedding night.

..

For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. “You hurt me,” she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. “It was not me, my lady,” he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. “It was the wine. I drink too much wine.” To wash down his admission, he reached for his horn of ale.

...

The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness.

[butterbumps!]

Is it truly impossible to ask a hypothetical question about cause and effect without questioning the hypothetical? The question posed by the OP is whether Cersei would have done it all over again given how things turned out for her. The question is about a given starting point-- having illegitimate children and no legal heir-- and teasing out the causes and effects of this particular issue.

Why does Robert's cheating and other issues have to enter into this discussion? Because it really has nothing to do with whether Cersei would have done it again knowing the hardship that followed the starting point posed in the hypothetical. Instead, it gets into an ugly debate about the relative "ok-ness" of rape in a Medieval context and the fruitless task of determining Cersei's entry to evil, neither of which are actually relevant to this hypothetical.

[Winter's Knight]

Robert's guilty of all the rape that most other male nobles are in Westeros. His other physical abuses of her are linked to the issue, though.

Bullshit, you think Ned would ever treat Cat the way Robert did? Even Tyrion had the basic decency to not rape his wife.

And it probably is the greatest thing she's ever done. That's horrid. Robert's greatest deeds were in his mercy towards enemies, Cersei's greatest deed is a self-serving murder.

Mercy towards his enemies? Quel fuck? I'm sure Rhaenys and Aegon and Daenerys agree.

[E-Ro]

I completely forgot about all that...

Meh, still dont like her.

[Winter's Knight]

Is it truly impossible to ask a hypothetical question about cause and effect without questioning the hypothetical? The question posed by the OP is whether Cersei would have done it all over again given how things turned out for her. The question is about a given starting point-- having illegitimate children and no legal heir-- and teasing out the causes and effects of this particular issue.

Why does Robert's cheating and other issues have to enter into this discussion? Because it really has nothing to do with whether Cersei would have done it again knowing the hardship that followed the starting point posed in the hypothetical. Instead, it gets into an ugly debate about the relative "ok-ness" of rape in a Medieval context and the fruitless task of determining Cersei's entry to evil, neither of which are actually relevant to this hypothetical.

Probably because everyone agrees that yes, she would and that discussion ended on page 2? :P

[straits]

I'm sure this had nothing to do with her hate at all:

That's right, he had it coming. He treated her horridly. But Joff was not going to be his, regardless. He did not abuse her on the wedding night.

I just had a look, Joff was conceived the same year as Robb and Jon, around the Rebellion. She would have done more or less the same because of the incest.

[PatrickStormborn]

Robert's guilty of all the rape that most other male nobles are in Westeros. His other physical abuses of her are linked to the issue, though.

Not really. I expect that most male nobles would agree not to have sex with their wife if she refused. And, as you've said, he also assaulted her.

And it probably is the greatest thing she's ever done. That's horrid. Robert's greatest deeds were in his mercy towards enemies, Cersei's greatest deed is a self-serving murder.

"Mercy towards enemies". Yeah, he showed mercy towards Rhaegar's "dragonspawn", didn't he? And hiring an assassin to kill Daenerys Targaryen was very merciful too.

(For the record, if you honestly think I'm condoning murder then you're very much missing my point.)

Why does Robert's cheating and other issues have to enter into this discussion? Because it really has nothing to do with whether Cersei would have done it again knowing the hardship that followed the starting point posed in the hypothetical.

My question is this: would Robert have abused Cersei in the same way that he did, knowing that it led to her children being fathered by Jaime (and therefore being aware of "the hardship that followed")? As Robert's actions were directly responsible for her "rebellion", he is very relevant to the discussion.

[butterbumps!]

Probably because everyone agrees that yes, she would and that discussion ended on page 2? :P

There was still discussion about what precisely the incest caused, though. Those things weren't clearly agreed upon.

My question is this: would Robert have abused Cersei in the same way that he did, knowing that it led to her children being fathered by Jaime (and therefore being aware of "the hardship that followed")? As Robert's actions were directly responsible for her "rebellion", he is very relevant to the discussion.

You entered the discussion stating that the hypothetical posed was wrong because we weren't addressing what Robert did to make Cersei do this. He's not relevant because the discussion was about a starting point of incest, not the factors that led to the incest. And seriously, Cersei's a grown woman, and I kind of support her incest decision. I kind of like the fact that she took control like this, and I think she should take full responsibility in having made this decision.

[jons nissa]

But that wasn't when she started cheating on him. It is not just the first offence (Lyanna), it is the rape, his rough treatment of her, his refusal to own up to it (It wasn't me my lady, it was the wine ) that led to her treason. If it had stopped at Lyanna, if he had tried, why do you assume that she'd have reacted the same way?

“A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?”

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me,

in

me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”

Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. “I do not know which of you I pity most.”

eta:

I'm sure this had nothing to do with her hate at all:

no, not at the start. it just helped it along. ned asks her that question when he confronts her about her children. she could have replied "many years of sexual and physical abuse" but she doesn't.

eta again:

sorry for the wonky formatting :blushing:

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Is it truly impossible to ask a hypothetical question about cause and effect without questioning the hypothetical? The question posed by the OP is whether Cersei would have done it all over again given how things turned out for her. The question is about a given starting point-- having illegitimate children and no legal heir-- and teasing out the causes and effects of this particular issue.

Why does Robert's cheating and other issues have to enter into this discussion? Because it really has nothing to do with whether Cersei would have done it again knowing the hardship that followed the starting point posed in the hypothetical. Instead, it gets into an ugly debate about the relative "ok-ness" of rape in a Medieval context and the fruitless task of determining Cersei's entry to evil, neither of which are actually relevant to this hypothetical.

Exactly.

I get the sympathy for Cersei given the way Robert treated her. But pretending that the effects of Cersei's decision to have illegitimate children or don't exist doesn't have to be a part of this sympathy.

ETA: And I think arguing that Cersei is some machine-determined-by-Robert really takes away from her character.

[E-Ro]

“A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?”

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me,

in

me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”

Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. “I do not know which of you I pity most.”

:bawl: How sad!

I think its time for my next reread.

[straits]

Bullshit, you think Ned would ever treat Cat the way Robert did? Even Tyrion had the basic decency to not rape his wife.

Mercy towards his enemies? Quel fuck? I'm sure Rhaenys and Aegon and Daenerys agree.

Except Tyrion raped his wife in the end.

And Tywin killed the kids through Gregor. I was referring to the mercy Robert gave towards the enemies he actually faced. In battle. Live. He spared some of them and they became his allies.

What Robert would or wouldn't have done to the Targs is irrelevant, because it opens up another hypothetical situation which has no bearing on Robert's treatment on Cersei.

[PatrickStormborn]

That's right, he had it coming. He treated her horridly. But Joff was not going to be his, regardless. He did not abuse her on the wedding night.

I don't know about you, but Cersei and Robert's wedding night certainly reads like abuse to me.

I just had a look, Joff was conceived the same year as Robb and Jon, around the Rebellion. She would have done more or less the same because of the incest.

Wrong. Robb was born in the year 283, and Joffrey was born in the year 286.

ETA: Thank you WK for correcting me. :)

[Winter's Knight]

“A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?”

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me,

in

me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”

Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. “I do not know which of you I pity most.”

Honest question: does Cersei strike you as the sort of person to tell Ned that his friend raped her? She shies away from his question about the bruise Robert gave her in front of Ned.

That's right, he had it coming. He treated her horridly. But Joff was not going to be his, regardless. He did not abuse her on the wedding night.

I just had a look, Joff was conceived the same year as Robb and Jon, around the Rebellion. She would have done more or less the same because of the incest.

Your timeline is off-he married Cersei after the Rebellion. Joff was fourteen when he died while Jon was fourteen in AGoT.

[straits]

Wrong. Robb was born in the year 293, and Joffrey was born in the year 296.

You're right, I was looking at their reigns for some reason.

[Winter's Knight]

Wrong. Robb was born in the year 293, and Joffrey was born in the year 296.

*whispers* 286