Why is Jon Snow so popular? Maybe Spoilers?

[Florina Laufeyson]

Ok guys...really...? I know the thread is long and full of Stannis but come on...

[Ser Pollo Loco]

But I don't see Jon as being that flawed. Other than the fact that he's a bastard, (and as has been discussed above he was well treated by all otehr standards), I just don't see where his flaws are? He's "loyal to a fault", he's "trusting to a fault", he has alot of honor etc but he manages to be great at swordplay, leadership and commanding. He's a great ranger, he makes friends easily, he kills whites, he has-an-awesome as hell direwolf, he finds dragonglass, he's probably got Targaryen blood... He has so many good and useful character traits that everyone on the watch is in his shadow. What do you think his flaws are?

you might want to reread jamie's chapters in feast, after tyrion's last chapter in storm the parallels are there and jamie is practically a new person and arguably even since the dream/bear pit scene

in Game aemon asks jon what ned would do if it was honor on the one hand or family on the other and Jon says he would whats right. In dance we see Jon throwing off his honor by Westeros standards left and right to prepare for the others, to the point where's he ripping babies from their mother's breast. He's cold and hard just like the rests of the stark children. Arya survives a war zone, for all her "faults" Sansa's "armor" was unbreakable when she was married to Tyrion and surrounded by Lannisters, the only difference is Jon is at the wall where we the reader knows the true threat is. The biggest problem why readers have less sympathy for Dany in Dance is that her trials and tribulations are a result of her own choices and actions and she has a flawed notion of justice

[butterbumps!]

ok, if this absolutely must turn into a Stannis thread, can we at least discuss the sublime interactions between him and Jon? To that point, I seem to recall that Jon kind of owned him in those little chats.

[Little Wing]

Yeah, I like Stannis, but... hijacking every thread with Stannis is making him less and less fun

[Raksha the Demon]

When Jon said "Edd fetch me a block" i imagined the seen and i see Ned standing at Jons side and watching his son.Really it was perfect.I see more blocks in future

What I also loved about that scene was that Jon did not just up-and-decide to avenge his father by offing Slimy Slynt; he first mentally goes through the alternatives to killing Slynt, to see if there's any way he salvage the situation without killing a man of the Night's Watch. (I agreed with Jon, as a military commander, he had to make sure that his orders were obeyed without challenge) That is also very Ned; who did not like to kill without reason or thought.

[Rawien]

Is that a flaw or not?

Playing the victim as a character flaw? I guess so. But when you don't have much to be victimised about it rings a little hollow hahah. Especially when people like Dany and Tyrion have had worse pasts and recovered from it better. I don't know, when your flaws are murdering 10 year olds via window and being to blind to see putting your bratty, cruel son on the throne will cause everyone to suffer playing the martyr just doesn't seem to cut it! :P

[Kolantero]

Why wouldn't he popular? He is a good guy but lacks the "honorable to the point of suicide" of other good characters like Ned or Brienne. He accomplished a lot despite his "bastard" background. He put his duty for the realm above personal happiness even though he is only fourteen. He is not perfect though which i guess would turn some people off.

[redviper9]

ok, if this absolutely must turn into a Stannis thread, can we at least discuss the sublime interactions between him and Jon? To that point, I seem to recall that Jon kind of owned him in those little chats.

Jon is certainly one of the few we've seen who's able to hold his own against Stannis.

Actually, I just thought of another reason I like Jon: he convinced Stannis to abandon his less-than-stellar plan to attack the Dreadfort in favor of seeking out the Mountain Clans and moving on Deepwood Motte. It was very Mance of Jon -- sometimes you have to bash heads, sometimes you have to sweet talk and persuade.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

He cut Janos Slynt's head off and he has a thing for redheads. How can I *NOT* like the guy? :)

[Also, for as much as GRRM likes to subvert and run misdirection with the conventions of Fantasy Novel Storytelling, Jon's a pretty straight take on the classical Fantasy Series hero. Much as I love the curveballs GRRM throws at us and throws so well, at the end of the day I want to see That Guy win out. Stare Evil Down and Punch It In The Face. I didn't warm up to Jon right away, but he's been steadily growing on me ever since he started growing up.]

Plus, he keeps good company. Sam, Edd, Old Bear, Halfhand, Mance, Aemon, Stannis, Melisandre, Tormund, all are/were/are awesome. :P

[Éadaoin]

Playing the victim as a character flaw? I guess so. But when you don't have much to be victimised about it rings a little hollow hahah. Especially when people like Dany and Tyrion have had worse pasts and recovered from it better. I don't know, when your flaws are murdering 10 year olds via window and being to blind to see putting your bratty, cruel son on the throne will cause everyone to suffer playing the martyr just doesn't seem to cut it! :P

Tyrion? Recovered from it better?

What?

[Rawien]

Tyrion? Recovered from it better?

What?

Well Jon might have had a "cold" childhood at worst but Tyrion was openly hated, scorned, ridiculed and in the books it's mentioned that Cersei used to hurt him when he was a baby. Jons family might have at times made him feel like an outcast but Tyrion was downright hated, and continues to be even though he doesn't deserve it.

Edit:

Sorry I miss read that, I find that Tyrion uses what he has to his advantage. He has been given a hard lot in life, e.g. being a dwarf in a medieval world, and so he makes a saddle which he later gives to bran to make things easier. His family have low expectations of him and so he uses that to his advantage also, (such as the drains in Casterly Rock thing and his interactions with his sister at court). Tyrion may mention that he got a bad lot in life alot, (not as much as Varys mentions his man goods but hey ho), but while he knows it's a disadvantage he's come to accept his limitations. Jon is for alot of the books quite brooding on his lot in life.

[The Red Pope]

Ok guys...really...? I know the thread is long and full of Stannis but come on...

Sorry... But I have to make reason for my forum name every now and then.

He is awkward, especially around women and he strongly resents the idea of fathering bastards himself. This is not Mary Sue, but it's a big reason for his popularity.

[Florina Laufeyson]

What I also loved about that scene was that Jon did not just up-and-decide to avenge his father by offing Slimy Slynt; he first mentally goes through the alternatives to killing Slynt, to see if there's any way he salvage the situation without killing a man of the Night's Watch. (I agreed with Jon, as a military commander, he had to make sure that his orders were obeyed without challenge) That is also very Ned; who did not like to kill without reason or thought.

Jon is certainly one of the few we've seen who's able to hold his own against Stannis.

Actually, I just thought of another reason I like Jon: he convinced Stannis to abandon his less-than-stellar plan to attack the Dreadfort in favor of seeking out the Mountain Clans and moving on Deepwood Motte. It was very Mance of Jon -- sometimes you have to bash heads, sometimes you have to sweet talk and persuade.

These are both really great examples of Jon's "outside the box" thinking. In the first, it is rather Ned-like, but also Jon's own idea about trying to find a way to salvage having to kill Slynt. But it becomes very clear there is no other way because Slynt will continue to fuck him and everything else up the hindquarters with the pointy end. Of course, Jon's own anger comes out here. "Edd, fetch me a block." Is very clear. Justice, but also "get this git out of my face..."

The second shows Jon is willing to weigh tactical options. Something even Stannis cannot do really well. But he must share this with Stannis because it is the better tactical choice. He listens to what Stannis wants to do and then gives his insight. It is very Mance-like. Showing that Jon has learned a great deal of the other side of the coin from his time with the wildlings.

Well Jon might have had a "cold" childhood at worst but Tyrion was openly hated, scorned, ridiculed and in the books it's mentioned that Cersei used to hurt him when he was a baby. Jons family might have at times made him feel like an outcast but Tyrion was downright hated, and continues to be even though he doesn't deserve it.

No. Tyrion allowed himself to become the monster that everyone thought he was. Jon did not allow himself to sink that low. Even when he "betrayed" the Night's Watch, it was very difficult for him to do and he truly never gave up on that lot. That is not something Tyrion would do.

[butterbumps!]

Well Jon might have had a "cold" childhood at worst but Tyrion was openly hated, scorned, ridiculed and in the books it's mentioned that Cersei used to hurt him when he was a baby. Jons family might have at times made him feel like an outcast but Tyrion was downright hated, and continues to be even though he doesn't deserve it.

Not to turn this beautiful thread into a Tyrion debate, but it's really a bit much to say that Tyrion bounced back from adversity better than Jon did, given the fact that Jon became the sort of man to value every life, and Tyrion spends half of that book vomiting on whores after forcing intercourse with them.

[redviper9]

Playing the victim as a character flaw? I guess so. But when you don't have much to be victimised about it rings a little hollow hahah. Especially when people like Dany and Tyrion have had worse pasts and recovered from it better. I don't know, when your flaws are murdering 10 year olds via window and being to blind to see putting your bratty, cruel son on the throne will cause everyone to suffer playing the martyr just doesn't seem to cut it! :P

Is this the same Tyrion Lannister who decided to deal with his father issues by killing his father and was then suicidal for most of ADwD? The same Daenerys Targaryen that can't make up her mind about what she really wants, what it means to be a dragon, and still think about her brother with molten gold running down his face?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

OK, here's my issues with the "Jon is a Gary Stu" fuckery.

Either he's a perfect, flawless do-gooder. Or he's sullen, boring and has a victim complex. You can't have it both ways.

ok, if this absolutely must turn into a Stannis thread, can we at least discuss the sublime interactions between him and Jon? To that point, I seem to recall that Jon kind of owned him in those little chats.

Quite right. I'd also like to point out, in addition to this most lovely of observations, that Stannis is actually following Jon's playbook. Jon told Stannis, "Recruit the mountain clans, free Deepwood Motte and then face the Boltons. Marching to the Dreadfort is insanity." This is actually Jon's proxy war, fought through Stannis.

As to why I like Jon, here it is in a nutshell: He's a good person and I don't ever have to make excuses for why he crucifies people, sacks cities, commits torture and other atrocities or runs his mouth off like an idiot in front of the wrong people. I feel good when I think about him succeeding, and he's one of the few people — if not the only person — in this story who legitimately wants to do the right thing for its own sake and not in the hopes of empty political power. He knows that he won't get jack shit in recognition for his works with the Night's Watch, and he does it anyway. There's a nasty tendency, when it comes to this series, for people to conflate "asshole" with "interesting."

[Éadaoin]

Not to turn this beautiful thread into a Tyrion debate, but it's really a bit much to say that Tyrion bounced back from adversity better than Jon did, given the fact that Jon became the sort of man to value every life, and Tyrion spends half of that book vomiting on whores after forcing intercourse with them.

Lol, what I was going to say - albeit more well-worded.

eta: meaning yours was more well-worded. I'm great with words today, sheesh.

[LuisDantas]

Jon is simply a good, old-fashioned Paladin. Always nice to have one at hand.

[Budj]

Jon is my dude, but it absolutely doesn't hurt that he is surrounded by the best secondary characters in the entire series.

[Rawien]

These are both really great examples of Jon's "outside the box" thinking. In the first, it is rather Ned-like, but also Jon's own idea about trying to find a way to salvage having to kill Slynt. But it becomes very clear there is no other way because Slynt will continue to fuck him and everything else up the hindquarters with the pointy end. Of course, Jon's own anger comes out here. "Edd, fetch me a block." Is very clear. Justice, but also "get this git out of my face..."

The second shows Jon is willing to weigh tactical options. Something even Stannis cannot do really well. But he must share this with Stannis because it is the better tactical choice. He listens to what Stannis wants to do and then gives his insight. It is very Mance-like. Showing that Jon has learned a great deal of the other side of the coin from his time with the wildlings.

No. Tyrion allowed himself to become the monster that everyone thought he was. Jon did not allow himself to sink that low. Even when he "betrayed" the Night's Watch, it was very difficult for him to do and he truly never gave up on that lot. That is not something Tyrion would do.

People made him out to be a monster because he looked like one. That's alot hard to recover from that being a bastard, especially if you were basically a Stark in all but name.

Perhaps that's why I can't like him then. All this do-gooding is too hard to accept. In a the books George creates a world that is cruel and harsh even to the nicest inhabitants. Poor, dead Ned was killed even though he played by the book and was the best guy ever, Arya has had to trek through a war, Robb is dead, Stoneheart...In a world where everything is so so dark, Jon Snow is the untouchable hero. He might have had his downs, yes, but he's recovered and grown stronger and is now treating with kings. In the book everyone else is human and Jon is superhuman. Kind, loyal, smart, strong and while he's had his hardships he's doing the best out of the Starks and doing better than most of the Lannisters.

I guess he's too much of a goody two shoes for me! :P