Why is Jon Snow so popular? Maybe Spoilers?

[Florina Laufeyson]

But that's Ned calling her out on the idea of bringing Jon to court. Im talkin' in general, man.

[redviper9]

"Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes. “They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.”

“And none of them has ever been seen at court!” Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—”

Meh.

But seriously, even if I dislike Catelyn (I do), her opinion about bastards is not exactly uncommon...

I think this conversation occurs in a specific context: Ned is obviously worried about Jon's welfare now that he's going to court and wishes that Cat would show at least some concern. But I think it's also obvious in this conversation that this is the first time Cat has seriously suggested sending Jon away from Winterfell. She may have wished it before, but I don't think she ever expressed it.

I think this passage also illustrates that a lot of the tension Jon caused in Ned and Cat's marriage happened out of sight of the kids. Jon and the others (particularly Robb and Sansa) certainly picked up on it, but I don't think Ned and Cat were having knock-down, drag-out feuds about it in the open.

[ladyofslytherin]

I think this conversation occurs in a specific context: Ned is obviously worried about Jon's welfare now that he's going to court and wishes that Cat would show at least some concern. But I think it's also obvious in this conversation that this is the first time Cat has seriously suggested sending Jon away from Winterfell. She may have wished it before, but I don't think she ever expressed it.

I think this passage also illustrates that a lot of the tension Jon caused in Ned and Cat's marriage happened out of sight of the kids. Jon and the others (particularly Robb and Sansa) certainly picked up on it, but I don't think Ned and Cat were having knock-down, drag-out feuds about it in the open.

I agree, but it also makes me incredibly sad that Catelyn probably won't ever get an opportunity to forgive Ned or apologize to Jon for how cold she always was to him. There are a lot of clues in the text that Jon is Lyanna's son, not Ned's. If they're true and not just a school of red herring, then regardless of who fathered Jon on Lyanna, Ned never telling Catelyn the truth of Jon's parentage did some heavy damage to their marriage that didn't have to happen. And now the only person potentially left that can tell the truth of it is Howland Reed, whom we haven't seen in the present of the series and we're not even sure is still alive, since our last information to that effect comes from the fact that he sent Jojen & Meera to Winterfell in ACOK.

But even if he is still alive and does leave Greywater Watch or otherwise get word out to someone that Jon isn't Ned's bastard but Lyanna's son, Catelyn will probably never know about it and won't have a chance to forgive Ned and pray for forgiveness for herself, even in death.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

The tragedy is, Ned lies to cover up R+L=J in order to protect his family.

But Robb is so driven not to repeat his father's mistake (that he never actually made) and not put his potential son through the drama that he's seen Jon endure that he marries Jeyne Westerling, and this overcompensation eventually costs him his life.

[redviper9]

I agree, but it also makes me incredibly sad that Catelyn probably won't ever get an opportunity to forgive Ned or apologize to Jon for how cold she always was to him. There are a lot of clues in the text that Jon is Lyanna's son, not Ned's. If they're true and not just a school of red herring, then regardless of who fathered Jon on Lyanna, Ned never telling Catelyn the truth of Jon's parentage did some heavy damage to their marriage that didn't have to happen. And now the only person potentially left that can tell the truth of it is Howland Reed, whom we haven't seen in the present of the series and we're not even sure is still alive, since our last information to that effect comes from the fact that he sent Jojen & Meera to Winterfell in ACOK.

But even if he is still alive and does leave Greywater Watch or otherwise get word out to someone that Jon isn't Ned's bastard but Lyanna's son, Catelyn will probably never know about it and won't have a chance to forgive Ned and pray for forgiveness for herself, even in death.

Ned is clearly aware of this (he does think about the things his promise to Lyanna cost him), but he can't tell Cat, even if he really wants to. As Tywin and Doran both said, the more people know about something, the more likely it is to get out. There's no guarantee that Cat would be able to keep the information to herself. Yes, it put a strain on their marriage. Yes, Ned not telling Cat can be interpreted as a sign of mistrust. But if Ned promised to do his best to keep Jon alive, then he can't take any undue risks.

[LeoSuperstar]

Ned is clearly aware of this (he does think about the things his promise to Lyanna cost him), but he can't tell Cat, even if he really wants to. As Tywin and Doran both said, the more people know about something, the more likely it is to get out. There's no guarantee that Cat would be able to keep the information to herself. Yes, it put a strain on their marriage. Yes, Ned not telling Cat can be interpreted as a sign of mistrust. But if Ned promised to do his best to keep Jon alive, then he can't take any undue risks.

I agree. Even loving Catelyn, Ned can't tell her something of that magnitude. She would stop seeing Jon as a annoyance and start seeing him as a real threat to the life of her children (in case Robert finds out.)

[Larry of the Lawn]

Jon thinks outside the box:

He doesn't want to father a bastard ------> Comes up with the Lord's Kiss all on his own!

[Wanderer]

I would have done the exact same thing in Ned's place. Yes, would put a stress on the marriage but if a child's life is on the line I think it's best kept a complete secret. Cat while well intentioned had a bad habit of getting over involved in other people business. I'm reasonably certain that Ned understood the danger in confiding in her. Besides, Ned made a promise to his sister. What was he supposed to do? I get annoyed when people suggest he should have broke that promise. Otherwise renders promises meaningless.

[Lion of Judah]

I'm not the guy's number one fan, but I like his style. He reminds me of Eddard so much and he has that melancholy aspect that Ned had, it just draws you in.

[Wanderer]

I kind of wish there were a law that banned "stu" "plot gift" and "cliche" from the forum.

And "trope". Please! PLEASE!

[koftroy]

Jon has always been my favorite characters, and Jaime actually became my second one in "Storm of Swords". One of the reasons that I loved him so much, is how in the beginning, his character is portrayed, via his relationship with Ghost. The way he feels about him, how close he feels to him, are all really important to the man he becomes in the end. It is why the show always makes me crazy because we never see Ghost!

Anyway, we now know that he is a very powerful warg. But, he is also brave, loyal and a very cold, sad man. I think we all know now, he is not a man of the NW, he is really meant to be with the Wildlings.

He is also the one who has Ned's solemn disposition. He has lost, his brothers, his father, and is still traumatized from losing Ygritte. He is desperately searching for Arya, because they had a special bond, as she wargs as well, right? But she's off becoming a Faceless Man, so that will be an interesting reunion in the end.

He is always described as someone who rarely smiles, and is kind of scary with his sword, Ghost and that scar. He sends Sam away with Val's nephew, so Melisandre would not sacrifice him to R'Hillor. He turned down what Stannis offered him, because he knew that Winterfell was never truly his to take. But he does want Val, and she would take him in a second, as she said quite a few times. She and Melisandre are the only ones who could make Ghost turn his head away from Jon.

Perhaps some feel he lacks loyalty, but the Half-Hand told him to do what he did, and that took courage. He does what is right, at great cost to himself, as he does again by bringing in the Wildlings. He had no allies to publicly support him, and he was desperately trying to keep more people alive, as the Others were coming, and he did not want to add to their army. But all anyone could see was that he was giving away their food, and helping the enemy.

It was why he spent a great deal of time talking to Val. He doesn't trust anyone except except Tormund in the end. However, I do believe that he earned the respect of Stannis to a certain degree. But that is an entirely different conversation.

He is the farthest thing from whiney or wimpy. I will say that as much of a hottie as Kit Harrington is, he does give Jon a bit too much emotion, but damn he can move in a sword fight. So we will see this season how he will be portrayed, as his POV's are a great deal of the third book. But to me, the real Jon, is the one written in the books.

I will write about my thoughts as to why he is not really dead in that thread.

[ladyofslytherin]

Besides, Ned made a promise to his sister.

But what promise was that? Did he just promise to take care of the child? Or did he promise to hide him? We have no idea what happened in that room beyond that he made his sister a promise. We have no idea if Lyanna had been informed of Rhaegar's death. Based on the fact that she died "in a bed of blood" of fever, it sounds to me like she'd recently given birth and was dying of purpureal fever and blood loss. Telling her that Rhaegar had died might have been the last thing anyone wanted to do, as it would likely have unduly upset her at a delicate time or in her final moments.

So there's no reason to assume at present that Ned's promise to his sister has anything to do with his decision to conceal Jon's parentage by passing the infant off as his bastard. She could've asked him to promise her to deliver the child up to Rhaegar safely, a promise that he didn't have the heart to deny his dying sister even if he couldn't fulfill it because giving the promise she was asking for would allow her to die in peace. Which means that we have no reason to believe that Ned's lack of trust in Catelyn and willingness to damage his marriage so irrevocably was driven by anything other than his own fears of what would happen to Jon if it were known that he was Lyanna's son.

And that one lie to his sister on her deathbed could've fueled his almost compulsive need to stick by the truth no matter what the cost in AGOT, a decision that ultimately resulted in his death and the undoing of his entire family.

AFAIC, unless the exact words of Lyanna's promise were "don't ever tell anyone who he is, not even your wife," then Ned had no reason not to tell Catelyn the truth of Jon's parentage other than his own fears and a healthy dose of guilt over what happened to Lyanna and Rhaegar. Catelyn might be something of a busybody, but she knew how to keep secrets. Which means that all the damage he did and all the anger that Catelyn felt for all of those years didn't need to happen unless his sister specifically made him promise not to tell her. And we have no textual proof of the exact nature of the promise Lyanna extracted from her brother on her deathbed.

[ladyofslytherin]

I agree. Even loving Catelyn, Ned can't tell her something of that magnitude. She would stop seeing Jon as a annoyance and start seeing him as a real threat to the life of her children (in case Robert finds out.)

But if Ned only tells her, a woman who is proven in canon to be able to keep secrets, how is Robert going to find out? Everyone else who might have known is dead with the exception of Howland Reed, who hasn't left Greywater Watch since the end of Robert's Rebellion. Ned wasn't worried about Howland telling anyone. So why the double standard?

[redviper9]

This is the last post I'll be making on this thread specifically on the issue of Ned not telling Cat the truth of Jon's parentage, since it's not strictly on-topic with the OP.

<snip>

You're right, nobody knows what the exact promise(s) Ned made to Lyanna was. All of us are guessing, but the the guess that makes the most sense is that Ned promised Lyanna that he would keep her child safe at any cost. And I don't think that Ned's adhesion to the truth began at the ToJ. By all accounts, he was always an honorable individual who did things the right way. Also, despite the isolation of the Tower of Joy, it appears that the Kingsguard there were already aware of Rhaegar's death when Ned arrived; if Hightower, Dayne, and Whent knew, then chances are Lyanna knew, too.

But if Ned only tells her, a woman who is proven in canon to be able to keep secrets, how is Robert going to find out? Everyone else who might have known is dead with the exception of Howland Reed, who hasn't left Greywater Watch since the end of Robert's Rebellion. Ned wasn't worried about Howland telling anyone. So why the double standard?

Again, Ned can't take any further risks. He has already taken a huge one by claiming Jon as his own. Further, there are two incidents that show how quickly news can spread even in remote Winterfell. Everyone in Winterfell knew that there might have been something between Ned and Ashara Dayne (it's not shocking that nobles knew, since half the Westerosi nobility was at Harrenhal; but things have gotten out of hand when all your household servants are in on the gossip). And then there's the attempt on Bran's life. Varys already knew by the time Cat reached King's Landing about the dagger, which means that Varys has agents of some sort at Winterfell (remember, while everyone knew of the attempt on Bran's life, the only ones who knew about the dagger were Cat, Robb, Theon, Luwin, Rodrik, and Hal Mollen). Even at Winterfell you never know who might be listening.

As for Howland, all we know is that he and Ned became very close during the Rebellion. And, Howland couldn't help but know about Jon (if he is indeed Lyanna's son). Ned may very well have decided that his word was enough.

[James Arryn]

But if Ned only tells her, a woman who is proven in canon to be able to keep secrets, how is Robert going to find out? Everyone else who might have known is dead with the exception of Howland Reed, who hasn't left Greywater Watch since the end of Robert's Rebellion. Ned wasn't worried about Howland telling anyone. So why the double standard?

It's not a double standard. Reed already knows.

Assuming the promise was to keep Jon secret and safe, he can't tell Cat and keep the promise. He can discuss it with Reed, presuming he does, because Reed is there and already beyond the promise.

What the canon says about Cat's ability to keep a promise is irrelevant for 2 reasons.

1) The canon also shows Ned means what he says. So if he swears a promise, he means it and upholds it. He doesn't compromise it by deciding who he can break it with.

2) Your description is the blueprint for how secrets are normally betrayed. Few people swear to keep a promise to someone they care about and walk around openly telling everyone. They usually break it by deciding that one or 2 people are trustworthy, make THEM swear to tell NO ONE, and then confide in them.

At which point you have another 1 or 2 people with a secret they swore to keep to themselves. Except there are 1 or 2 people they really trust.

And soon you have several people knowing the secret and eventually someone will trust the wrong person or slip up and reveal it....formulaic.

[danm_999]

But if Ned only tells her, a woman who is proven in canon to be able to keep secrets, how is Robert going to find out? Everyone else who might have known is dead with the exception of Howland Reed, who hasn't left Greywater Watch since the end of Robert's Rebellion. Ned wasn't worried about Howland telling anyone. So why the double standard?

This is from a while ago, but it answers your question.

1. Lyanna likely asked him to tell no one and no one meant no one.

2. Ned and Catelyn were strangers when they married. He had no idea if he could trust her or if she'd turn him over to Robert. The love and trust came later.

3. Plausible deniability. If Ned's treason is found out and Catelyn knew about it, she'd be punished too. Ned is protecting her from that — if he's caught, he can honestly say she didn't know.

4. The ruse depends on people actually believing that Jon is Ned's son. Catelyn treating him kindly, as she would a nephew, would ring some bells. If she treats him like a bastard, that's what people will think he is and no one will dig too deeply.

5. Ned ponders this in his cell, but it's possible that if push came to shove, Catelyn would sell Jon out — as a Targaryen heir — to the Lannisters or other enemies in order to save her own children.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

I liked Jon better when he was Ned's bastard.

[TinHouse]

I have no idea honestly, Jon chapters put me to sleep most of the time, I don't care about anything going on with him.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I think jon snow is a pretty cool guy, eh kills wildlings and doesn't afraid of anything

10/10.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I like Jon, I just don't find him as compelling as more flawed characters like Tyrion or Jaime.