Why is Jon Snow so popular? Maybe Spoilers?

[Wanderer]

Because if I could choose any character in the book as a friend and/or leader, I'd choose Jon. I just want to be a part of what he is doing, because he is worthy of the faith that men place in him.

Well done! I am in complete agreement. Honor, integrity, compassion. This is worth following to me. Titles, charisma, and political wit are meaningless in the wake of these virtues.

[Dolorous Nedd]

What he did to give Sam Tarly some dignity in the Night's Watch is what sold me. He almost always does the right thing even if it's hard.

[Dolorous Nedd]

His LC election is a big "come onnnn" moment I see tossed around, but is it really that out of the blue or unexpected?

1. He's Mormont's handpicked steward. As Sam says, the implication is, Mormont's saying, "This kid is going places."

2. Denys Mallister and Cotter Pyke would both have been incredibly capable, but their animosity ended up in a stalemate that wasn't going to get broken. Their dislike was well-established long before the election.

3. Not everyone was tickled about voting for someone like Slynt.

4. Most of the other candidates who'd have a good shot are missing (Benjen) or dead (Donal Noye).

5. Jon had literally just helped hold the Wall against a wildling attack. There is very immediate empirical evidence that yes he does know what he's doing.

When you consider all of that, his election isn't nearly the out-of-nowhere plot contrivance so many detractors try to spin it as.

And there was the little nudge from the ravens / Bloodraven.

[Rawien]

OP,

I've loved Jon since the first couple chapters. He was gentle and supportive to Bran during the beheading and he's the same with Arya in all her chapters in AGOT. He lied to Robb about what Cat said to him to protect his brother from the ugliness. It's so rare for a 14 yr old boy to feel that kind of love for their siblings and act on it.

He goes to the Wall and is protective of Sam, Mance's baby, Satin, Alys, thousands of wildlings. His urge to help weaker things goes beyond normal kindness. It's almost parental and instinctive, the way a mama bear yearns to guard her cubs.

That's his personality- he's the protector, the shepherd, the savior, a smaller version of Ned. I think Jon's the most inherently good person I've met in 5000 pages and that's why he's my favorite character.

I like this sentiment alot, I can see how those couple together to make a really likeable guy. I can see why you'd root for him and you're right that he is one of the kinder Stark children despite not being one of them.

You have a couple Problems here

Your comparing him to other Character stop Jon is Jon he is not Dany,Tyrion,Robb, or any other character you try to compare him with.

You say he doesn't have flaws, He almost became a wilding during his misadventures with Ygritte, but he pulls him self out, and goes on the path he wants.

He gains animosity from many members of the NW for trying to bring the wildings over the wall to protect them, which in turn leads to the uprising, that ends in him being Seriously injured.

Oh and one point I feel the need to Drive home again is Jon=/=Dany ( Dany is your favorite Character so its obvious you don't like Jon when he Doesn't fail at every corner like her.)

Lol Dany is most definitely not my favourite character. As many people have pointed out earlier this is a Song of Ice and Fire, Jon is the ice and Dany is the fire. That is why I am drawing comparisons between them, not because I have any particular feelings for them.

And by the way those are still not character flaws, those are actions. The flaw would have to be ineptitude or bad judgement etc.

[The guy from the Vale]

I think you're missing some nuance here, Rawien. As a Targaryen, Dany is fire, agreed, and the Starks are Ice. But Jon is himself 'Ice and Fire', Targaryen and Stark. Those who see the need for balance in the end are rooting for Jon because, in contrast to firey Dany and icy Arya, he embodies both principles.

[Scipio Africanus]

And there was the little nudge from the ravens / Bloodraven.

I don't understand the big problem with Jon's election as LC. Besides what AM already mentioned, Ser Piggy rigged the election by cojoling Pyke and Mallister to vote for one candidate and Mormont's Raven (warged by Brynden Rivers) influenced the voting at the moment supreme with some old fashioned propaganda.

[Harvey Wargbanger]

I kind of wish there were a law that banned "stu" "plot gift" and "cliche" from the forum.

Hey!

Stuart

[James Arryn]

I originally assumed Bran, Ned or Dany were the dominant POV characters we were supposed to sympathize with, but GRRm's love of tweaks soon shifted that to Tyrion and Jon ( and still Dany) as the outsiders representative in and of themselves of the weaknesses of social standards.

And whereas I think GRRM has boiled a frog with us where Tyrion is concerned, morally...with Jon it never really deviated much. And although he gets boring, it's nowhere to the degree of Dany's saga. So I think we are, consciously or not, left with Jon holding a stake in our sense of the way the story will play out that is greater than anyone els from a moral point of view. I think this is true even of people who don't like him much or,as with me, people more interested in the Game than the Others...there is still a sense that the Others are the 'real' issue, even if more meh.

Which is I think is the thing...the worst you can say about Joni's he's meh, vanilla, 7/10, Melba toast. He's not anything particularly wrong. Aside from a few growing pains he never does anything particularly bad. And he also does a lot particularly good.

Of all the people acting way above their age, Jon seems to me to push that credibility the most since his transformation to Commander. Robb showed more sheer brilliance in a single area, but just the one, and also made a rash move/strained against the leash some...Dany blows hot and cold with maturity, Arya is increasingly acting devoid of morality, etc.

But Jon is basically acting like adult Ned across a broad sphere, and in dealing with someone as experienced as Stannis actually comes across as the wiser. If you don't buck at the age issue, he's carved out the centre of the moral story and added credibility as its judge.

So, while I am more ambivalent about his story at any given time than others...for example, Jaime is pretty clearly my fave ATM...when I consider the entire tapestry I have to conclude Jon is probably my most consistent favourite. I think many feel a version of this even if they are as grudging about it as I am, more or less.

He's far from the most interesting...but heals also much ever disappoints. Brienne, Davos and Ned are the only other characters as morally consistent, and none of them are as significant/prevalent.

[Harvey Wargbanger]

Umm, she is his wife, so no. I wouldnt. Also thats a weird question to ask a stranger dont you think, wether they would have sex with someone?

I ask that of strangers (women) all the time. Usually the "someone" is me, and the answer is... no. :crying: :crying: :crying:

Chicks dig guys who know a bunch of cool pickup lines, Leo. Look at Tormund Giantsbane.

[Rawien]

I think you're missing some nuance here, Rawien. As a Targaryen, Dany is fire, agreed, and the Starks are Ice. But Jon is himself 'Ice and Fire', Targaryen and Stark. Those who see the need for balance in the end are rooting for Jon because, in contrast to firey Dany and icy Arya, he embodies both principles.

Jon Starkgaryen, love it. I hadn't thought of it from that point of view. From a narrative sense I suppose Jon really has to be the main character as he is, if you believe R+L=J and personally I do, the combination of ice and fire. But I don't think Jon is the balance between good and bad here, I maintain Jon is a character that is firmly rooted in "good". Aside from poor old dead Ned and Brienne he is, I would say, the most good. I don't believe he is morally grey as other people here have posted, anything that has had really awful consequences has generally been due to something out of Jon's control. Anything he could control he would always do what was "right" e.g. sticking with the watch and turning his cloak, even though it's not necessarily the best move for him personally. I think Jon is still the embodiment of ice and is the character who is most "morally white" in that sense.

As James put it earlier,

Which is I think is the thing...the worst you can say about Jon is he's meh, vanilla, 7/10, Melba toast. He's not anything particularly wrong. Aside from a few growing pains he never does anything particularly bad. And he also does a lot particularly good.

This is actually the worst thing I have been able to say about Jon. He's not done anything wrong, he's done alot of good but he still doesn't really grab my interest as a reader.

[Danelle]

I don't want to start any arguments because I know he's a favourite character for alot of people, but I just want to know what it is about him people really like? I've always found him to play the victim too much, especially with his family considering on the whole they're quite nice to him and compared with alot of other high born bastard children, (Ramsay, Roberts bastards etc,) he's actually treated with alot of love and respect. Ned openly cares for him and Arya and Rob are very warm towards him. And when he goes to the wall he feels extremely entitled to be a ranger and hard done by to be at the wall when, as Tyrion points out, there are boys much worse off than him right there infront of him. Ontop of his attitude towards his lot in life he also seems to be handed brilliant strokes of luck on a plate. While his family are all beheaded, captive or dead he manages to swing commander of the watch and Rob names him heir to Winterfell.

I know there is some disagreement about who his actual parents might be but I feel it's clear from the text that Jon Snow is not really a bastard and has at least semi-important parents that are yet to be revealed. I feel like there is alot of hard luck for the other starks but Jon is being set up for some serious good luck perhaps by way of more inherritance.

I know that there are alot of Love/Hate characters in the books but personally I can usually find arguments for each case. I know Jaime pushed Bran out of the window but in his own warped way he's loyal and caring. I know Sansa can be frustratingly naive and gullable at times but I always remember she's only 13 and in her own way is also quite brave in how she handles the Lannisters. But I can't find myself liking Jon Snow. Would you be able to tell me what you all like about him? Is he a lovable rogue?

Thanks!

Jon is one of my favourite characters, part of the reason why I like him is because he is a good example of GRRM's writing style. As a writer he often uses archetypes but he tends to deconstruct them. Jon is the deconstruction of the hero. Just like Dany, Tyrion, Jaime and Sansa he is constantly between two situations:

• He is a Stark and a Snow
  
• He is a sworn brother of the NW and one of the free folk
  
• He took an oath to remain single and he became Ygritte's lover
  
• He is LC of the NW and Arya Stark's brother
  
• He is LC of the NW and accepted Stannis' aid
  

He makes mistakes and quite often fails. He is a unique combination of tragic, romantic and action hero.

He has to face adversity, mostly due to his status as a bastard. He tries really hard to remain loyal to his father, to the NW, to Ygritte, to Mance, to his brothers, to Quorin, to Arya. His storyline basically evokes what Jaime Lannister told Catelyn Stark:

“So many vows…they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.”

Part of his romantic aspect is that no matter what he does, he is always questioned and in a way rejected by society. This has to do with the fact that the only creature that is entirely devoted to Jon and he is also devoted to it is Ghost. His direwolf and their bond, in my opinion emphasize the fact that while the civilised world one way or another rejects Jon, he is more connected with nature.

And then of course there is all the action. One of my favourite parts in the books was Jon fighting the Wildlings at Castle Black. Not to mention him killing the wight and joining Jeor Mormont at the expedition beyond the wall.

For me Jon is a hero, but not in a traditional sense.

Then again, it is all a matter of what you like to read about and what you don't.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

And there was the little nudge from the ravens / Bloodraven.

To add to you and Apple Martini, his Father was Lord Stark, his unlcle former first ranger and he has the blood of the first man.

Also, while holding the wall with a band of cripples and green boys, he became a defacto leader and people started looking up to him.

Plus he slew a white, infultrated the Wildlings, and Slint was a monster!

[butterbumps!]

Lol Dany is most definitely not my favourite character. As many people have pointed out earlier this is a Song of Ice and Fire, Jon is the ice and Dany is the fire. That is why I am drawing comparisons between them, not because I have any particular feelings for them.

And by the way those are still not character flaws, those are actions. The flaw would have to be ineptitude or bad judgement etc.

I would also like to echo what theguyfromthevale is saying about missing nuance, but would extend that to the entirety of Jon's arc. I think what is often overlooked about Jon's POVs is that it's actually extremely subtle-- there is a bit of "adventure" to it, but a lot happens in Jon's own dialogue, how he processes info, his inner reactions to things, what he dwells on.

To that end, only a superficial reading would yield the assertion that Jon is "ice" to Dany's fire in terms of character development--the balance that nearly none of the other characters achieve is right there in Jon's arc, and I don't even mean in terms of his parentage. There are comparisons between Jon and Dany, but I'm not sure that calling it "ice and fire" is the most honest or productive way of looking at it.

If you really want to get into the tragedy of Jon, it's that he's a highly competent guy, who by all accounts would make a great leader, yet he lacks both the freedom and power to actually be that leader. If you want a Dany contrast, she's the opposite; she has unfettered power and freedom to rule as she pleases, but neither wants nor is able to rule in the ways Jon would be successful.

His utter lack of power is part of what makes his arc so compelling, and connects it back to a theme of the series such that power and the ability for good governance do not come together necessarily; power often corrupts, and if Jon is to be efficacious at leading anyone, it may pose some significant moral compromises for him.

Jon has already made some very hard choices. In aGoT, leaving the Watch was easy; coming back and subjugating his emotions was the hard part. In DwD, following his vows would have been the easy choice; choosing to save Arya/ give up on the state of the Watch was the difficult choice. He made the decision not to kill Ygritte; he made the choice to kill Mance despite respecting him tremendously. He chose to overcome his own issues with the Lannisters and sent them a paper shield despite his own emotional turmoil. Let's also not forget that Stannis offered him Val and Winterfell, and a "get out of jail free" card about his vows and he chose not to take this offer. He also refused Mel's help when she offered to make things easier for him through magic-- he doesn't trust "swords without hilts."

[Tyrion Tanner]

Inner monologue reveals that he is very responsible and truly cares for innocent people (no matter which side of his Wildling War). Also his chapters in Storm of Swords about his escape from the Wildling rangers then the subsequent battles were the most exciting chapters I read throughout the series.

[The guy from the Vale]

Jon Starkgaryen, love it. I hadn't thought of it from that point of view. From a narrative sense I suppose Jon really has to be the main character as he is, if you believe R+L=J and personally I do, the combination of ice and fire. But I don't think Jon is the balance between good and bad here, I maintain Jon is a character that is firmly rooted in "good". Aside from poor old dead Ned and Brienne he is, I would say, the most good. I don't believe he is morally grey as other people here have posted, anything that has had really awful consequences has generally been due to something out of Jon's control. Anything he could control he would always do what was "right" e.g. sticking with the watch and turning his cloak, even though it's not necessarily the best move for him personally. I think Jon is still the embodiment of ice and is the character who is most "morally white" in that sense.

As James put it earlier,

This is actually the worst thing I have been able to say about Jon. He's not done anything wrong, he's done alot of good but he still doesn't really grab my interest as a reader.

I don't think either one of Ice or Fire are inherently good, much the opposite. Both are destructive forces, although in different ways: Fire burns what is there, and annihilates it; Ice crystallizes, making change impossible. If it's too hot, you die. If it's too cold, you die, too. Neither Ice nor Fire is a force for good, unless they are balanced. That was pretty much my point... And, again, Jon personifies that balance better than just about anyone else. He's not as rash or fiery as Dany, but he also isn't as sociopathically cold as Arya.

[Arya Targaryen]

I think people seem to confuse Gary Stu characters with characters who (almost) always make the right choice. I think Gary Stus make the right choice AND be loved/respected/accepted by even those who shouldn't love/respect them. Those, who just make the right choice (like Jon) are people with good heart, they are smart, willing to learn and think outside the box. But not all people, not even all "good" people end up agreeing/loving/respecting them for it. Like Bowen is not a bad person, he doesn't even hate Jon, he is just unable to see what Jon's trying to achieve. And he ends up killing Jon. Nothing of this sort would happen to a Gary Stu.

Jon is my fav, exactly because of that. I don't have to find excuses for what he does. (And he is friends with Mance :drool: )

[Lady of Long Lake]

Jon doesnt hate Catelyn so why should I? Jon never says "Catelyn, what a horrible bitch." so really, why should I, the reader, think Catelyn is awful by extension? This is where the Jon-stan/Anti-Cat fallacy falls apart.

No, I agree, Jon doesn't think those things. But the sad truth is that his apathy to Cat is born from him feeling inferior, flawed and ashamed of himself. He doesn't hate her because he thinks he deserves to be treated like that. Jon hates being a bastard just as strongly as Catelyn does, so perhaps he understands her feelings on some level.

[Florina Laufeyson]

No, I agree, Jon doesn't think those things. But the sad truth is that his apathy to Cat is born from him feeling inferior, flawed and ashamed of himself. He doesn't hate her because he thinks he deserves to be treated like that. Jon hates being a bastard just as strongly as Catelyn does, so perhaps he understands her feelings on some level.

Precisely. Cat's treatment wasnt even considered abnormal. I dont recall any character even calling her out on this.

[LeoSuperstar]

Precisely. Cat's treatment wasnt even considered abnormal. I dont recall any character even calling her out on this.

"Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes. “They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.”

“And none of them has ever been seen at court!” Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—”

Meh.

But seriously, even if I dislike Catelyn (I do), her opinion about bastards is not exactly uncommon...

[The Mountain That Posts]

Honestly, I feel like the whole Catelyn disliking bastards and despising Jon specifically was just a last minute idea thrown in to garner audience sympathy for Jon and a last minute element to keep Cat from appearing to be a perfect mother, or something.

Maybe that's just my interpretation though. Either way, the cat/jon thing isn't fleshed out nearly enough for it to be a major topic of discussion in this thread IMO.