Why is Jon Snow so popular? Maybe Spoilers?

[lojzelote]

But I don't see Jon as being that flawed. Other than the fact that he's a bastard, (and as has been discussed above he was well treated by all otehr standards), I just don't see where his flaws are? He's "loyal to a fault", he's "trusting to a fault", he has alot of honor etc but he manages to be great at swordplay, leadership and commanding. He's a great ranger, he makes friends easily, he kills whites, he has-an-awesome as hell direwolf, he finds dragonglass, he's probably got Targaryen blood... He has so many good and useful character traits that everyone on the watch is in his shadow. What do you think his flaws are?

Great at swordplay: not really; he's allegedly a bit better than Robb, but Mance royally (and publicly) kicked his ass. He fought better than the other NW recruits because he was taught how to fight since he could walk, while the others were learning to saw and harvest (or something like that) until they were sent to the Watch.

Great at leadership and commanding: I wouldn't call him incompetent, but there were moments I wanted to strangle him ... like when he endangered the NW when he sent Mance to fetch him the wife of Ramsey Bolton, the nicest and most forgiving guy around, like when he stopped to even try to convince his councelors in the NW that the steps he takes are the right ones, send the rescue mission to Hardhome, ...

Makes friends easily: and easily loses them if Pyp's reaction from AFfC is anything to go by. Sam's his only close friend at the moment.

He kills whites: that was Sam; I think you meant a wight, and I didn't see anything contrived about that scene.

He finds dragonglass because he has a cool direwolf: I give you that, but Grey Wind found Robb a secret way to his enemies, so he could surprise them and win an easy victory, and something tells me that Nymeria's pack of wolves is just waiting there for Arya to use ...

Got Targaryen blood: He hasn't got their famed beauty, nor is he fire resistant or immune to sicknesses (none of the Targs are, BTW). He will be almost certainly unable to prove his heritage to the people of Westeres at large, so no Iron Throne for him. We cannot be sure about the dragon riding thing at this stage. So it may not mean much in the end, aside from the fact he's (probably) from Aerys and Rhaella's line (wink wink).

LOL at the Stannis talk :drunk:

Going to bed.

[E-Ro]

Alright alright, no more stannis talk. You guys are so boring.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I like Jon because he is totally freaking awesome; and his conversations with Stannis are also totally freaking awesome.

Seriously though, I like Jon because he is the one character in the series that doesn't need explanations of his character; unless someone takes his awesome personality traits and turns them into something negative.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

People made him out to be a monster because he looked like one. That's alot hard to recover from that being a bastard, especially if you were basically a Stark in all but name.

Perhaps that's why I can't like him then. All this do-gooding is too hard to accept. In a the books George creates a world that is cruel and harsh even to the nicest inhabitants. Poor, dead Ned was killed even though he played by the book and was the best guy ever, Arya has had to trek through a war, Robb is dead, Stoneheart...In a world where everything is so so dark, Jon Snow is the untouchable hero. He might have had his downs, yes, but he's recovered and grown stronger and is now treating with kings. In the book everyone else is human and Jon is superhuman. Kind, loyal, smart, strong and while he's had his hardships he's doing the best out of the Starks and doing better than most of the Lannisters.

I guess he's too much of a goody two shoes for me! :P

While I think it's insane to have to point out morally gray things that Jon does to DEFEND HIM, I have to point out that he forcibly separates a mother from her baby, stashes prisoners in ice cells, executes a subordinate and takes children as hostages to ensure the wildlings' good behavior (and unlike Dany, I think he'd actually follow through). He's a fundamentally good person but he's pragmatic in such a way that I think labeling him as a "goody two shoes" is a flawed reading. Also, overcoming one's "downs" to come back stronger and with lessons learned is what some people refer to as "character development."

[The Red Pope]

Alright alright, no more stannis talk. You guys are so boring.

This is truly a day to remember. :cheers:

One Mary Sue feature he does have is that he is so skilled and influential at such an early age, but that's nothing specific for him since all the Stark children were made to young for their roles.

[Foxhound]

Playing the victim as a character flaw? I guess so. But when you don't have much to be victimised about it rings a little hollow hahah.

That's the point. If he had a horrible childhood then it wouldn't really be a flaw. Instead because of his arrogance and limited world view he thinks his life has been hard when in fact just about everyone else on the Wall, from the noble born Sam to the commoners have had worse lives. He also then demonstrates a character strength by recognizing this and changing his thinking. If we're talking about why to like Jon, one of things I like is that he changes his outlook when he is exposed to new things .A "Sue" doesn't need growth like that because they're always perfect

Especially when people like Dany and Tyrion have had worse pasts and recovered from it better. I don't know, when your flaws are murdering 10 year olds via window and being to blind to see putting your bratty, cruel son on the throne will cause everyone to suffer playing the martyr just doesn't seem to cut it! :P

People have already dealt with the idea that Tyrion is somehow well adjusted. As for the latter, why do you think Jon is unique in not trying to murder children or other terrible acts? Ned, Cat, Brienne, Sansa, Davos, etc. are all similar. They're flawed characters, but are fundamentally decent people. The idea that everyone should be the same shade of grey is just as bad as the idea that everyone should be black or white.

[E-Ro]

My first post was on topic then stannis was flamed, but I will drop it.

Anyway regarding jon, I like him hes the last adult male stark and hopefully he will help his family out in the coming books.

[LuisDantas]

This is truly a day to remember. :cheers:

One Mary Sue feature he does have is that he is so skilled and influential at such an early age, but that's nothing specific for him since all the Stark children were made to young for their roles.

Not only the Starks: Daenerys, Margaery and Myrcella are considerably influential and even wise for their ages as well. Arguably, so are Gendry and Podrick Payne. Adult life begins early in Westeros.

[LeoSuperstar]

Not only the Starks: Daenerys, Margaery and Myrcella are considerably influential and even wise for their ages as well. Arguably, so are Gendry and Podrick Payne. Adult life begins early in Westeros.

Ok with the others, but Daenerys... "wise"? :bang:

[The Wolves]

Honestly in GRRM's world not a lot of his characters are likeable and I see Jon as one of the few that I can relate to and actually like. I get why people don't like him and totally get why some do. I also don't get why some call him a Mary Stu character cause he doesn't come across like that to me. I like him he's that awesome

[Florina Laufeyson]

While I think it's insane to have to point out morally gray things that Jon does to DEFEND HIM, I have to point out that he forcibly separates a mother from her baby, stashes prisoners in ice cells, executes a subordinate and takes children as hostages to ensure the wildlings' good behavior (and unlike Dany, I think he'd actually follow through). He's a fundamentally good person but he's pragmatic in such a way that I think labeling him as a "goody two shoes" is a flawed reading. Also, overcoming one's "downs" to come back stronger and with lessons learned is what some people refer to as "character development."

I know right? I had to make a post once that had me taking a steaming dump on Jon in order to make a point about how hes not all smiles and sunshine.

This is truly a day to remember. :cheers:

One Mary Sue feature he does have is that he is so skilled and influential at such an early age, but that's nothing specific for him since all the Stark children were made to young for their roles.

Thats not really a Sue feature in this series though. Dany is actually younger than Jon and shes a queen. This is a series with 17 year old guys being the Knight Of Flowers and kicking ass. Where an 11 year old girl gets betrothed to a prince. A girl who at age 11, joins an assassins guild. Yeah...

Also having a couple of Mary Sue traits does not immediately make one a Sue. Dany is not a Sue and she has the most Sue traits out of anyone in the series.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I know right? I had to make a post once that had me taking a steaming dump on Jon in order to make a point about how hes not all smiles and sunshine.

:D

Thats not really a Sue feature in this series though. Dany is actually younger than Jon and shes a queen. This is a series with 17 year old guys being the Knight Of Flowers and kicking ass. Where an 11 year old girl gets betrothed to a prince. A girl who at age 11, joins an assassins guild. Yeah...

Also having a couple of Mary Sue traits does not immediately make one a Sue. Dany is not a Sue and she has the most Sue traits out of anyone in the series.

Yeah I don't know why Jon specifically gets shat on for the age thing. Kids in this series whose balls haven't even dropped yet do all sorts of crazy feats and survive extraordinary circumstances.

[The Great Walrus]

Yeah I don't know why Jon specifically gets shat on for the age thing. Kids in this series whose balls haven't even dropped yet do all sorts of crazy feats and survive extraordinary circumstances.

THIS! I could not agree more... :bowdown: :agree:

[The Red Pope]

:D

Yeah I don't know why Jon specifically gets shat on for the age thing. Kids in this series whose balls haven't even dropped yet do all sorts of crazy feats and survive extraordinary circumstances.

Because the wall is full of good seasoned men and blood isn't supposed grant you any power there.

[LadyMary]

Jon's flaws include having an inflated sense of entitlement coupled with a chip on his shoulder for being a bastard who will never get to inherit from his "father". It's not a good combination in any person, but at least Jon was able to understand that he'd better get over himself and learn to adjust his attitude. I like that about him. It makes him realistic. When he's wrong, he's willing to admit it, or at least try to make up for his mistakes. Jon is a competent swordsman but tries to get better by challenging himself against others. He's inexperienced as a Leader and trying to internalize Aemon's advice to "kill the boy" but he's made errors by sending away his support network within the NW. He's got his allies amongst the Wildlings, but some consider that an act of treason. He allows his emotions to rule him at times and reacts in ways that were likely to upset the order of the NW, at the very least. For that, he was stabbed and left for dead.

I don't see Jon as Stu-ish. I see him as mostly honorable but occasionally devious, diplomatic with a side of condescending, immature but sometimes wise beyond his years, a good friend who can be cold to those who he doesn't trust, persistent but sometimes self-doubting, analytical but sometimes reactive. He sometimes struggles with competing emotions and stakeholders who want different things from him and makes mistakes as he goes along, like everyone in this series. I think he's very human, and relatable.

[The Shadow of Asshai]

Because he is not greedy, he's proud but not greedy, he suffered some unfair stuff in his life, some of then from Cat Staks, who was really mean to him, and that stuff she said she wished it was him who got hurt and not Bran, that was all people needed to hate her and love Jon.

That's one of the main points when Jon was more loved and Cat more hated.

And he was doing well so far in The NW, you know, he's the character most closed to The Others

[Katsa]

What is wrong with liking someone who is a good person?

Personally, it's all about balance. We have characters that vary in shades of grey in the series, and Jon Snow comes close to being white. Would the original poster prefer if all the characters in the series are grey to black instead? If Jon had pillaged a wilding village or leave them for dead north of the Wall, would that make the original poster like him more?

I don't find it entirely strange that Ned and the Stark siblings love Jon. It seems pretty common for Starks to raise bastards alongside trueborns, anyway (e.g. Brandon Snow and Torrhen Stark).

[Florina Laufeyson]

Because he is not greedy, he's proud but not greedy, he suffered some unfair stuff in his life, some of then from Cat Staks, who was really mean to him, and that stuff she said she wished it was him who got hurt and not Bran, that was all people needed to hate her and love Jon.

That's one of the main points when Jon was more loved and Cat more hated.

And he was doing well so far in The NW, you know, he's the character most closed to The Others

Jon doesnt hate Catelyn so why should I? Jon never says "Catelyn, what a horrible bitch." so really, why should I, the reader, think Catelyn is awful by extension? This is where the Jon-stan/Anti-Cat fallacy falls apart.

[The Mountain That Posts]

The only thing stuish I find about Jon is the fact he ended up being LC.

I wouldn't even have minded that too much, I just felt it happened too early in the plot.

[The Great Walrus]

Jon doesnt hate Catelyn so why should I? Jon never says "Catelyn, what a horrible bitch." so really, why should I, the reader, think Catelyn is awful by extension? This is where the Jon-stan/Anti-Cat fallacy falls apart.

Yep, one of the stupidest and utterly inaccurate beliefs in ASOIAF fandom, and it keeps coming back...