Joffrey's Murder- was Margarey in it

[A wilding]

LF is adaptable. Once he realized that it was Joffrey who died not Tyrion he sticks to the plan to take Sansa to the Eyrie, but can no longer do so openly so the whole Alayne thing.

One of the issues with this theory is exactly how adaptable LF was. When Lothor Brune rowed Sansa out to him after the murder, LF was already talking of Joffrey in the past tense before Sansa blurted out what happened, and LF does not even blink when she tells him. It seems very unlikely LF could have already learnt what had happened had he not known in advance.

[Ragnorak]

Regarding the guest right discussion-- I think the Tyrells brought the food which places them in a similar situation as Manderly in that regard. It doesn't explicitly say they probided it, but Tyrion notes that they ended the famine by reopening the roads so it probably has to be their food.

Manderly hasn't done anything to actually violate even a hypothetical guest right... yet. If the Tyrells got caught killing a King it isn't like the guest right crime on top of that is going to make much of a difference, but they do seem to be the ones who supplied the food for what that matters.

[Vargo Hoat's Teddy Bear]

How did the strangler get dissolved in the pie under this scenario? In the prologue, Cressen dissolved it in red wine to hide the colour. And how would Sansa's hairnet fit in?

THe amethysts in her hairnet were some sort of stage of the poison. When Olenna fumbled with her hairnet she would have taken one out without Sansa noticing.

[Lyanna Stark]

Marge was definitely in on it. She sat next to the QoT when the latter pumped Sansa for info on ol' Joff. This seems to hint that Marge was being kept in the loop and part of the planning. Marge is probably the QoTs protege.

I still think Garlan had the best opportunity to poison Joff though. However the app says it was the QoT who poisoned him. And we definitely see the QoT extracting the poison from drug mule Sansa right before the feast.

I doubt Loras and Mace were in on it though. Gives them plausible deniability.

Garlan is seated next to Sansa and Tyrion, which is rather far away from the king, so no, Garlan did not have a better opportunity. The best one would have been either Margaery herself or the QoT.

Mace and Loras are definitely not in on the poisoning. However, there are a couple of reasons that Garlan may have known.

Also, Littlefinger told everyone how great Joffrey were at Bitterbridge when he went there to negotiate, but took pains to have the servants spread tales about what a monster Joffrey was at the same time. So LF had already planted the seeds with the Tyrells about how awful Joffrey were. Then Olenna and Marg interrogate Sansa in Kings Landing to prove or disprove what LF said (or, well spread). LF himself claims that he's worked with Olenna to take out Joffrey, so it's likely the "loyal" and not too daft Tyrells are in on it, like Marg and Garlan, and possibly also Leonette (Garlan's wife).

[Ygrain]

THe amethysts in her hairnet were some sort of stage of the poison. When Olenna fumbled with her hairnet she would have taken one out without Sansa noticing.

I was responding to the poster who claimed that Tywin was the poisoner.

Garlan is seated next to Sansa and Tyrion, which is rather far away from the king, so no, Garlan did not have a better opportunity. The best one would have been either Margaery herself or the QoT.

Mace and Loras are definitely not in on the poisoning. However, there are a couple of reasons that Garlan may have known.

Also, Littlefinger told everyone how great Joffrey were at Bitterbridge when he went there to negotiate, but took pains to have the servants spread tales about what a monster Joffrey was at the same time. So LF had already planted the seeds with the Tyrells about how awful Joffrey were. Then Olenna and Marg interrogate Sansa in Kings Landing to prove or disprove what LF said (or, well spread). LF himself claims that he's worked with Olenna to take out Joffrey, so it's likely the "loyal" and not too daft Tyrells are in on it, like Marg and Garlan, and possibly also Leonette (Garlan's wife).

I believe that framing Tyrion was a part of the plan since the very beginning - poisoning Joffrey while he was seated next to Marge and no-one else had a chance to mess with his wine would have been extremely dangerous. To avoid any suspicion against the Tyrells, the scapegoat had to be obvious immediately, so that no-one ever even thought about thinking otherwise. Therefore, Garlan/Leonette were truly in the best position to carry out the plan, and QoT passed him/her the poison as she came there.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Of course Margaery was involved.

And this is what Cersei will have to find out too move her plot forward from pyscho back to player.

[Scipio Africanus]

Garlan is seated next to Sansa and Tyrion, which is rather far away from the king, so no, Garlan did not have a better opportunity. The best one would have been either Margaery herself or the QoT.

When Joff was yelling at Tyrion at the dwarf joust there was a window of opportunity. Granted, it's not a very big one, but still, I don't see the QoT, with her small frame and while being constantly watched, poisoning Joff's cup either. Let's just say I'd be surprised she would be able to pull it off.

Also, Littlefinger told everyone how great Joffrey were at Bitterbridge when he went there to negotiate, but took pains to have the servants spread tales about what a monster Joffrey was at the same time. So LF had already planted the seeds with the Tyrells about how awful Joffrey were. Then Olenna and Marg interrogate Sansa in Kings Landing to prove or disprove what LF said (or, well spread). LF himself claims that he's worked with Olenna to take out Joffrey, so it's likely the "loyal" and not too daft Tyrells are in on it, like Marg and Garlan, and possibly also Leonette (Garlan's wife).

People shouldn't forget, LF didn't have to lie about Joff's cruelness. He was lying to Lord Puff Fish how great Joff was but his cruelness is a fact. Also, Sansa and our favourite eunuch (likely) collaborated LF's story. Lord Puff Fish wouldn't have cared or been blind to it but the QoT wouldn't.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

And this is what Cersei will have to find out too move her plot forward from pyscho back to player.

When was Cersei a) not a pyscho, and b ) a player.

Other, noticeably better, players consider her to be a pawn with both Varys and Littlefinger both stating that she is as good as a timebomb, tearing apart the fragile 'peace'. Littlefinger seems only amused at the rate at which she was able to do this, not by the fact she did.

[SeanF]

I think Margaery would have to be a part of it. Olenna wouldn't want her favourite grand-daughter to be poisoned. So she'd have to be warned. But, in any case, she went out of her way to befriend Sansa, so that Sansa could be put in the frame for the murder.

[Scipio Africanus]

I think Margaery would have to be a part of it. Olenna wouldn't want her favourite grand-daughter to be poisoned. So she'd have to be warned. But, in any case, she went out of her way to befriend Sansa, so that Sansa could be put in the frame for the murder.

Actually the QoT wanted Sansa for Willas, because at that point she was the only claiment to the North besides Robb. And accidents do happen to kings...

LF spoiled that plan by ratting out that part to Cercei, after which Tywin decided to hog Sansa for his self and throwing her as a bone to a reward clamouring Imp son of his.

[SeanF]

Fair enough. Sansa was framed once she no longer served any useful purpose to them.

[Scipio Africanus]

Fair enough. Sansa was framed once she no longer served any useful purpose to them.

I see her more as collateral damage. QoT just cut her losses with her main objective being fulfilled, namely Joff's death, Marge's remarriage to Tommen and the Imp blamed.

[The Dragon has three heads]

When was Cersei a) not a pyscho, and b ) a player.

Other, noticeably better, players consider her to be a pawn with both Varys and Littlefinger both stating that she is as good as a timebomb, tearing apart the fragile 'peace'. Littlefinger seems only amused at the rate at which she was able to do this, not by the fact she did.

Fair. I'm hoping though that he walk and finding this info turns her into one. Probably hoping too much.

[Natalia Borgia]

Yes she knew.

[Tenshi]

LF sent the hairnet, arranged Sansa's rescue, and arranged the jousters, while telling Joffrey how much Tyrion would hate it. Enough to provoke a fight. At the very least it'd make Tyrion the fall-guy, while likely providing an opportunity (and with 77 courses there was bound to be one, well in time).

Once opportunity arose, Olenna gave the signal ("Rains of Castamere"), so that Marge knew not to drink. Marge delayed (getting Joff to ask Ilyn's sword) and distracted, leaving Garlan free to spike the wine.

Gains for LF: He gets Joff out of the way, he gets Sansa out for himself, gets her husband out of the way, and with it a mildly dangerous opponent. He also has major dirt on the Tyrells now, while he himself has an alibi

Quite possibly as a backup plan, Marge could've done it. But Garlan was the best choice of the three, as he's not going to be watched as much (and is the most expandable).

[Dr. Pepper]

Definitely disagree with you on this one. I think there is some ancient power in Westeros connected with the Children of the Forest and the Others, and the First Men, and I think guest right and kinslaying are part of this. I think this "power" turns against people who violate it. It might not be an old man with a beard, but there's some kind of ancient magic/religion involved.

Those who punish others who violate things like guest right and kinslaying are men, not gods. If a divine power or magic is making people turn against those who violate these rules, then there's a problem of lack of free will. Essentially, all of the characters in the story would be mere puppets to some "power".

Westeros is a feudal society where titles and lands are traditionally passed from parent to eldest child. Placing a taboo on kinslaying offers people a certain peace that their brother won't murder them in their sleep in order to jump the line. Naturally, the taboo on kinslaying was attributed to the gods and made to cover all people, not just nobles, to make the taboo more effective. The Red Wedding should point to why guest right is such a sacred covenant. Without any sort of standardized legal system, people had to be assured of their safety should they enter the house of someone who was once an enemy or had reason to be an enemy or had high ambitions. I'll use the Boltons and Starks as an example. The Starks have ruled over the Boltons for a long time. The Boltons have warred with the Starks, even flaying some of them. Without a sacred tradition like guest right, neither house could feel safe in inviting the other into their castle for fear they would attack them in their sleep. Naturally, guest right was considered so important that it was made a rule attributed to the gods and covered everyone. Nothing makes people follow rules more than claiming they were handed down from gods.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...of course Margaery was in on it. She would need to make certain that she wasn't poisoned herself and also make certain that suspicion was not cast on her by being seen drinking from the chalice during the feast.