Joffrey's Murder- was Margarey in it

[Wouter]

GRRM himself said that we won't see any (real) gods affecting the world.

Agreed. GRRM is coy whether or not God(s) even exist at all in ASOIAF; I suspect he considers them non-existant (with the exception of the old Gods, but those aren't really Gods the way we would expect).

The AWOIAF app says it is Olenna who poisoned Joffrey, so I guess at least Ran has a clear opinion on that (wonder whether or not GRRM confirmed that particular part). Margaery had to have known though, either she took an antidote in advance or she knew when not to drink.

[Jslay427]

LF: do you want to be queen ?

margerey : no..i want to be "the queen"

That's not from the books, but I also thought of that convo

[A wilding]

First Sansa chapter of ASoS:

Sansa (to Margaery & the QoT): Please don't make me say more (about Joffery).

...

Margaery: She is terrified, Grandmother, just look at her.

...

[Much coaxing by the QoT.]

...

Sansa (shivering): ... Joffrey is a monster. [Gives details]

[The QoT and Margaery exchange a look.]

QoT: Ah, that's a pity.

After that conversation, I personally find it impossible to believe that Margaery did not know that Joffrey was going to be murdered, even if she did not do it herself. Her later comment that she would be safe marrying Joffrey, because Loras would protect her, was a transparent lie designed to calm Sansa.

[firepoet]

In that case the answer is simply: Because there aren't actually any gods that curse guest right breakers into rats... the guest rights stuff is no supernatural law, it's both human expectation and an especially motivating rallying cry for revenge.

Definitely disagree with you on this one. I think there is some ancient power in Westeros connected with the Children of the Forest and the Others, and the First Men, and I think guest right and kinslaying are part of this. I think this "power" turns against people who violate it. It might not be an old man with a beard, but there's some kind of ancient magic/religion involved.

And Martin said we wouldn't see gods directly involved, but people who violate guest right suffering bad luck, wouldn't really be "the gods being directly involved in the story."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think she almost had to have been, if for no other reason than because if she wasn't in on it, she stood a risk of accidentally being poisoned herself, given that they shared a glass. The "look" that Margaery and Olenna exchanged when Sansa told them about Joffrey suggests that Margaery was well aware of Joffrey's reputation and complicit in Olenna's plans. Hell, she may have even been the one to ultimately do the deed.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Arr. I think Marg was in on the plot and was more than tickled to cooperate. The convo with Sansa seems a pretty good way to create a patsy for it.

[Éadaoin]

I think the app said that the QoT was the one who poisoned Joff, but yes, I think Marg was definitely in on it.

[Jslay427]

Margery is the most prescious and loved of all the Roses, except maybe Loras, who Mace loves most. The Tyrells would never take a chance with Margery's life, so yes, she knew what was happening.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Not only is she absolutely in on it, she's my leading suspect for the triggerman (it pretty much has to be either her or Garlan, doesn't it?)

I figure the only way to be 100% sure Margaery knows when it is safe to drink from the chalice (in order to keep up appearances) and when it is NOT safe to drink is if she poisons Joffrey directly. Too subtle a "hand signal" from Garlan to Marge and they risk her missing it. Too clear a signal and they run the risk of someone else seeing it and thinking something's up.

Of course, this also carries the risk inherent in one extra exchange, not to mention Margaery having it on her person for X amount of time waiting for the next window of opportunity to slip it in while the room is distracted.

Has anyone read the ACOK prologue recently and remembers it well enough to recall the mechanics of The Strangler? Cressen goes into great detail on how it works and I can't remember if it's the poison with no antidote at all or if it's the one that has an antidote but it must be taken in advance. If it's the latter, of course, Margaery could've taken the antidote beforehand since the Tyrells would have known The Strangler was to be the weapon of choice. This obviously would make it much easier for the Tyrells as a whole to get away with it.

[Theda Baratheon]

I definitely believe she was in on it; I don't actually think she did the deed, but she was definitely aware that something was going to happen, knowing when to and when not to drink the wine.

[Melpomene]

Pretty condident that she was aware. Surely a big plan to commit regicide by a family wouldn't leave one out, especially one who is cunning and in a significant position herself. And even if Margie didn't directly know all the details she would have easily clued in.

Margie would be required to prepare for what was to come - how to react, what do to, what not to do, where to go and what to say, who to confide with later, versus going in completely blind which would be risky,

Olenna and Margaery also seemed very close altogether. Don't think Olenna was going to hide from her daughter the fact that she was about to get rid of her sadistic future husband herself. :cool4:

[Larry of the Lawn]

margaery was definitely in on it. probably garlan, definitely margaery and olenna, maybe loras. mace? certainly not!

in the immortal hamlettic words of eric burdon and war, "spill the wine, take that pearl"

[Kittykatknits]

All signs to point to Large Marge being in on the assassination, though she probably didn't do any of the direct work herself. Loras, Garlan, and Willas would not have needed to know in order to pull off the scheme, so it's possible it was just the ladies and Littlefinger who planned it (Mace, having the wits of a turnip, was clearly left out of the plot).

LOL, I didn't think I'd ever see a Pee Wee Herman reference on here.

That is an interesting point. Every Northmen talks about how Roose and the Freys will suffer for breaking the guest rights, while Manderly was careful to fully obey these laws. Will the Tyrells and LF suffer a similar fate and have a fitting justice/revenge from the Gods for breaking the guest rights. No one seems to talk about the Purple Wedding as such, because everyone hates Joffrey, but shouldn't the Tyrells fall in a similar way to the Freys and Boltons after 'reaching too high'?

I'm of the opinion that things will be getting worse for the Tyrells in the next book. All of the major houses have suffered pretty big losses so far in the series but the Tyrells have not yet. Whether this is because of the gods or guest right, I don't foresee them escaping unscathed. Also, I won't believe that Loras is really burned until I see his body on the page.

margaery was definitely in on it. probably garlan, definitely margaery and olenna, maybe loras. mace? certainly not!

in the immortal hamlettic words of eric burdon and war, "spill the wine, take that pearl"

I seriously doubt either were in on it, espeically after the way the QoT describes both of them.

[Stannis Gotta Stan]

I hope so... the Idea that Margeary went all hitman on Cerseis kid is kickass!

[Scipio Africanus]

I think she almost had to have been, if for no other reason than because if she wasn't in on it, she stood a risk of accidentally being poisoned herself, given that they shared a glass. The "look" that Margaery and Olenna exchanged when Sansa told them about Joffrey suggests that Margaery was well aware of Joffrey's reputation and complicit in Olenna's plans. Hell, she may have even been the one to ultimately do the deed.

Marge was definitely in on it. She sat next to the QoT when the latter pumped Sansa for info on ol' Joff. This seems to hint that Marge was being kept in the loop and part of the planning. Marge is probably the QoTs protege.

I still think Garlan had the best opportunity to poison Joff though. However the app says it was the QoT who poisoned him. And we definitely see the QoT extracting the poison from drug mule Sansa right before the feast.

I doubt Loras and Mace were in on it though. Gives them plausible deniability.

[Danelle]

Littlefinger tells Sansa that Othe Queen of Thorns played a part in Joffrey's murder- probably slipping the 'amethysts' in.But Margarey was not poisoned and if she was somewhat distressed over Joffrey's death. Of course this could have been an act but Olenna Tyrell would have endangered Margarey even though she only poisoned Joffrey to make Margarey queen.

The reasons why I think that Margaery was one way or another involed or at least aware have to do with her own safety. Had she drinked the wine then it would be similar to Hamlet when Claudius arranged for Hamlet to drink poisoned wine, Hamlet is not thirsty so his mother, Gertrud drinks to honour her son and all Claudius can do is watch while his wife is poisoned. Besides, as Tywin tells Jaime, the Tyrells had a back up plan, Tommen. When Olenna asked Sansa to reveal the truth behind Joffrey's attitude towards her, Margaery was present and all she does is look at Olenna. Crackpot, but Tyrells were desperately trying to crown Margaery. First they planned to present her to Robert as Lyanna the Second, then they gave her to Renly, then he died and they planned with LF to give her to Joffrey. And LF started spreading rumours about Joffrey's sociopathic behaviour but was that enough to stop Tyrells? I think that Olenna had planned the murder and all she wanted from Sansa was a confirmation and Winterfell.

Even if Olenna kept the plot a secret from Margaery, there no indication that Margaery would not suspect that her grandmother was behind Joffrey's murder.

The question is not whether Margaery knew, but to what extent was she involved and how would the Tyrells react in the event of Sansa Lannister, wife of Tyrion Lannister, brought to trial accused of Joffrey's murder and Margaery's attempted murder. Loras already told Jaime that he thinks that Sansa did it, but what about Margaery?

[Ygrain]

Marge was definitely in on it. She sat next to the QoT when the latter pumped Sansa for info on ol' Joff. This seems to hint that Marge was being kept in the loop and part of the planning. Marge is probably the QoTs protege.

I still think Garlan had the best opportunity to poison Joff though. However the app says it was the QoT who poisoned him. And we definitely see the QoT extracting the poison from drug mule Sansa right before the feast.

I doubt Loras and Mace were in on it though. Gives them plausible deniability.

I find this rather strange, given that just a few pages prior her tiny figure is emphasized again, plus the emphasy on how difficult the chalice is to reach for Tyrion. What is the exact formulation in the app? Can it be read that QoT was the mastermind behind the deed, without her being necessarily the one who personally put the poison into the wine?

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

I'm of the opinion that things will be getting worse for the Tyrells in the next book. All of the major houses have suffered pretty big losses so far in the series but the Tyrells have not yet. Whether this is because of the gods or guest right, I don't foresee them escaping unscathed. Also, I won't believe that Loras is really burned until I see his body on the page.

A rose may have thorns, but it can die all the same..... and winter has come. Oh yeah! :cool4:

[Ludd]

Sorry but I cannot see the Tyrells involved at all. Only LF says they are and he is not trustworthy. What possible advantage is there for the Tyrells. Margaery is to be Queen. The most rational things for them to do is for Margaery to marry Joffrey.and have an heir and a spare. Keep Tyrell guards close to prevent harm to Margaery. Once the succession is secured, then Joffrey has a nasty accident and the Tyrells become regents and rule the Kingdom.

The second option of marrying an 8 year old boy is just silly. 5-6 years before he is capable of bedding Margaery. Just not a rational strategy for the Tyrells.

Try this.

1. At LFs instigation Joffrey sets out to poison Tyrion.

2. Sansa is to be blamed, hence the whole Ser Dontos ploy. She escapes etc

3 She is to hide in the Eyrie with her aunt now married to LF.

4 .After a suitable time LF goes to court and pleads for her life, perhaps on the condition that she stays in the Eyrie. It is argues that she was forced into the marriage and that Tyrion has tried to kill her little brother. Since Joffrey hated Tyrion she will be pardoned.

5. Lyssa has an "accident" and with little other choice, Sansa marries LF.

6. LF makes a claim for Winterfell based on Sansa's claim.

However perhaps through Varys or Pycelle, Tywin gets wind of the plot. He sees Joffrey. He sees Joffrey leading the laughter at Tyrion. Tywin hates and fears laughter. Tywin does a switcheroo - or Joffrey just stuffs it up. The poison instead of being places in Tyrion's pie - where Joffrey stuck his hand, it "falls" into the chalice which Joffrey drinks.

LF is adaptable. Once he realized that it was Joffrey who died not Tyrion he sticks to the plan to take Sansa to the Eyrie, but can no longer do so openly so the whole Alayne thing. Part 4 of the plan is no longer possible but the rest stays much the same. LF will need to wait for a more suitable time before seeking to pardon Sansa.

I think LF is now seeking to adapt his plan to the new circumstances.

BUT LF is not quite a rational and in control as he should be. The snow castle kiss was unplanned and led to the too soon death of Lyssa. LF is beginning to crack

[Ygrain]

How did the strangler get dissolved in the pie under this scenario? In the prologue, Cressen dissolved it in red wine to hide the colour. And how would Sansa's hairnet fit in?