Is there anyway for Jon not to become a total cliche?

[eggs]

lol, 'average' heros are pretty common. strong but not the strongest, smart but not the smartest, good looking without being a model.....thats all pretty typical for a hero in a story with a large cast.

[Naathi Prince]

Well, there's a cliche to pretty much anything, so how can he avoid it? Of all the traits that Jon got during the story, the one that bothers the more is, oddly, Longclaw(it's House Mormont valyrian steel sword, but Jeor just gives it to a non-Mormont?). If only Tywin had know that the Mormonts don't value that sword as much as the other Houses, he could have replaced Brightroar years ago.

Let's see: the girl(ygritte) is a average wilding girl he hooks up while undercover, the rank(LC of NW) is gained by a lack of sutible candidates, the ancestry(half-Targ, half-Stark) add a certain intrige to Ned's actions, the magical pet(Ghost) it's a given for all Starks of his generation. He a good warrior but far from the best, he slightly above average looking but no sex-symbol, not wealthy, common skillset for the context(highborn bastard), smart without being genius, good morals but capable of faults.

All in all, he has a above the average traits without being among the best in any(still, the sword thing annoys me). Compared to Bloodraven, Jon is pretty non-cliche.

I thought Jon getting Longclaw was for fairly obvious reasons, the aren't any male Mormonts right now. Jeor is in the NW, and Jorah is an exile. Jeor doesn't seem to like his sister much and I don't think Valyrian swords are the type of thing you sell. Rich people don't sell things like that. Giving it to Jon, someone who has saved his life for one and he has already considered as a potential NW LC in the future is a smart move. It adds honor and value to the Night's Watch if it has a Valyrian Steel Sword born by its Commanders. As far as Jon's qualities, I think you probably underestimate Jon's intelligence. What characters are significantly more intelligent than Jon? While Jon isn't likely to beat the likes of Mance Rayder (without Longclaw), Sandor Clegane, Ser Gregor, or Jaime Lannister with his hand, he also isn't fully grown yet. I can tell you that even if you get fatter and slower and lazier due to inactivity, you still tend to get stronger post 20.

[ARYa_Nym]

lol, 'average' heros are pretty common. strong but not the strongest, smart but not the smartest, good looking without being a model.....thats all pretty typical for a hero in a story with a large cast.

Yes, there was a poster who once said the readers won't feel threatened by someone like that but identify with them easier.

[Theda Baratheon]

lol, 'average' heros are pretty common. strong but not the strongest, smart but not the smartest, good looking without being a model.....thats all pretty typical for a hero in a story with a large cast.

But every type of character could be said to be 'pretty' common. There is too much importance on being ''OH SO ORIGINAL'' but really, you've just got to enjoy the characters who who they are.

[Magic 8 Ball]

Well, speaking on behalf of the smart, strong, good looking, rich people of the world, why can't we win for once as well?

Just kidding. (obligatory humility)

[Tewks44]

I know to forum veterans the idea of Jon being revealed as a Targaryen seems tired and overused, but that's only because WE TALK ABOUT IT LITERALLY ALL THE TIME. For your average Joe who keeps up with the story, but hasn't done the amounts of research the majority of the wonder forum goers here have I think the reveal will be totally stunning and awesome.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I know to forum veterans the idea of Jon being revealed as a Targaryen seems tired and overused, but that's only because WE TALK ABOUT IT LITERALLY ALL THE TIME. For your average Joe who keeps up with the story, but hasn't done the amounts of research the majority of the wonder forum goers here have I think the reveal will be totally stunning and awesome.

That's an interesting point and something i keep hidden from show fans. Because once they find out, their minds will be blown and it will be awesome for them!

[eggs]

But every type of character could be said to be 'pretty' common. There is too much importance on being ''OH SO ORIGINAL'' but really, you've just got to enjoy the characters who who they are.

its easy to pick on Jon because of the crazy amount of stock tropes/attributes that went into his character. and again, i dont think theres anything wrong with that.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I know to forum veterans the idea of Jon being revealed as a Targaryen seems tired and overused, but that's only because WE TALK ABOUT IT LITERALLY ALL THE TIME. For your average Joe who keeps up with the story, but hasn't done the amounts of research the majority of the wonder forum goers here have I think the reveal will be totally stunning and awesome.

This is true. I asked a guy over the weekend, at a party, who was just a TV-show fan, if he'd figured out who Jon's parents were. He had no idea it was even a "thing." I think most casual fans — like the ones I might see reading the book in 5-page spurts on the Metro — have no clue that there's this mystery about who Jon really is. I guarantee that MOST casual fans think that he's Ned's son.

[Theda Baratheon]

I know to forum veterans the idea of Jon being revealed as a Targaryen seems tired and overused, but that's only because WE TALK ABOUT IT LITERALLY ALL THE TIME. For your average Joe who keeps up with the story, but hasn't done the amounts of research the majority of the wonder forum goers here have I think the reveal will be totally stunning and awesome.

Definitely! The first time I read this series and hadn't looked at these forums I didn't even THINK that this was a possibility!

[eggs]

Well, speaking on behalf of the smart, strong, good looking, rich people of the world, why can't we win for once as well? Just kidding. (obligatory humility)

well who doesnt love batman?

[Tewks44]

Definitely! The first time I read this series and hadn't looked at these forums I didn't even THINK that this was a possibility!

Same here. Even when I heard about the theory I dismissed it as nonsense and didn't like the idea. I thought Jon Snow's purpose in the story was to be a permanent reminder that even an honorable man like Ned has flaws, and no one is perfect. However after reading the evidence that has been compiled I've got to admit I don't see a way for R+L=J to be untrue unless GRRM intentionally changes his initial plan for the story. Now that I'm warming up to the idea I'm actually quite excited for the reveal.

[Theda Baratheon]

Same here. Even when I heard about the theory I dismissed it as nonsense and didn't like the idea. I thought Jon Snow's purpose in the story was to be a permanent reminder that even an honorable man like Ned has flaws, and no one is perfect. However after reading the evidence that has been compiled I've got to admit I don't see a way for R+L=J to be untrue unless GRRM intentionally changes his initial plan for the story. Now that I'm warming up to the idea I'm actually quite excited for the reveal.

I can't agree more; on initial reading I just didn't even think he was anyone but Ned's child, I thought it was to show Ned could have his faults too. And then re-reading I picked up all these little details and bits of foreshadowing/hints that just seemed so obvious.

I think the reveal will still be great though. I'm very excited by it now too.

[Magic 8 Ball]

well who doesnt love batman?

Steve Ditko would have. A = A.

(just kidding, I'm far too worldy and educated to fall into an objectivist cult, although I refuse to be ashamed of myself)

[Arkantos]

I suppose an advantage of reading the books within the space of a few days is that you really start connecting random tid bits of information to form solid theories, or crackpot ones, well, mostly crackpot ones.

[Djinn]

I thought Jon getting Longclaw was for fairly obvious reasons, the aren't any male Mormonts right now. Jeor is in the NW, and Jorah is an exile. Jeor doesn't seem to like his sister much and I don't think Valyrian swords are the type of thing you sell. Rich people don't sell things like that. Giving it to Jon, someone who has saved his life for one and he has already considered as a potential NW LC in the future is a smart move. It adds honor and value to the Night's Watch if it has a Valyrian Steel Sword born by its Commanders. As far as Jon's qualities, I think you probably underestimate Jon's intelligence. What characters are significantly more intelligent than Jon? While Jon isn't likely to beat the likes of Mance Rayder (without Longclaw), Sandor Clegane, Ser Gregor, or Jaime Lannister with his hand, he also isn't fully grown yet. I can tell you that even if you get fatter and slower and lazier due to inactivity, you still tend to get stronger post 20.

You don't sell but give?! Mormont women are warriors, at least one of them would fight with sword. By giving it to someone else, he depriving House Mormont of a Valyrian steel sword, one of the most prized symbols of Westerosi House, that even the richest man in the Realm couldn't buy. It not just his sister, it's the entire Mormont lineage that losing it. Besides, he gave to Jon before Jon was LC, and there's no guarantee that Jon would pass it down to the next LC, after all Jeor didn't.

Has for the intelligence: Varys, Littlefinger, Tyrion, Tywin, Doran, Blackfish, Oberyn, Kevan, Oleanna, Marwyn, Roose, Manderly, Barbrey...should i continue?

He isn't capable of beating the elite of warriors now, maybe he could in the future. If he get there will see, but untill then...assuming that fighting capability progression is some sort of mathematical progression equation ignores the crowds of young talented individuals that never reached their expected potential.

[Naathi Prince]

You don't sell but give?! Mormont women are warriors, at least one of them Wolf fight with sword. By giving it to someone else, he depriving House Mormont of a Valyrian steel sword, one of the most prized symbols of Westerosi House, that even the richest man in the Realm couldn't buy. It not just his sister, it's the entire Mormont lineage that losing it. Besides, he gave to Jon before Jon was LC, and there's no guarantee that Jon would pass it down to the next LC, after all Jeor didn't.

Has for the intelligence: Varys, Littlefinger, Tyrion, Tywin, Doran, Blackfish, Oberyn, Kevan, Oleanna, Marwyn, Roose, Manderly, Barbrey...should i continue?

He isn't capable of beating the elite of warriors now, maybe he could in the future. If he get there will see, but untill then...assuming that fighting capability progression is some sort of mathematical progression equation ignores the crowds of young talented individuals that never reached their expected potential.

Yes, giving someone a gift is not tacky and uncouth, like selling something is. Poor people sell things. Lords don't need to. While it appears Mormont's soldiers don't mind that Maege, Dacey, and Alysanne fight, does Jeor approve? As far as your intelligence list, I would debate most of them. Again, there are grown men. Jon is still a teenager. While there are certainly many young people who do not reach their potential, Jon is purposefully TRYING to reach his potential. He seeks counsel from the wise, like Maester Aemon. He consults with scholars he meets, like Sam Tarly. He manages to get a great deal from a banker from the Iron Bank of Braavos, convinces Stannis Baratheon of the wisdom of his ideas, and defended the Wall against a hundred thousand wildlings. I think that matches Tyrion, Tywin, Doran (none of his ideas even worked!), Blackfish, Kevan, Olenna, Marwyn, Roose, Manderly, and Lady Dustin.

[Djinn]

Yes, giving someone a gift is not tacky and uncouth, like selling something is. Poor people sell things. Lords don't need to. While it appears Mormont's soldiers don't mind that Maege, Dacey, and Alysanne fight, does Jeor approve? As far as your intelligence list, I would debate most of them. Again, there are grown men. Jon is still a teenager. While there are certainly many young people who do not reach their potential, Jon is purposefully TRYING to reach his potential. He seeks counsel from the wise, like Maester Aemon. He consults with scholars he meets, like Sam Tarly. He manages to get a great deal from a banker from the Iron Bank of Braavos, convinces Stannis Baratheon of the wisdom of his ideas, and defended the Wall against a hundred thousand wildlings. I think that matches Tyrion, Tywin, Doran (none of his ideas even worked!), Blackfish, Kevan, Olenna, Marwyn, Roose, Manderly, and Lady Dustin.

Giving away a family heirloom to someone that isn't family while there's multiple family members around is stupid and disrespectful. What did Jeor ever did to get a Longclaw? Oh yes, was heir of Lord Mormont. Jorah returned the sword when he was exiled, because he didn't wanted to deprive his family of it. Clearly, that was foolish. Even if Jeor disaproves of the She-bears, striping away the possibility of a future male Mormont have Longclaw is toughless and short-sighted(then again, this is from the creator of the Great Ranging). I find it very hard to believe that Tarly, Harlaw, Drumm, Corbray, Stark, Dayne or others with such swords would do the same. In fact, Howland Reed saved Ned in the ToJ, but Ned didn't gave him Ice, and even returned Dawn to the Daynes.

Davos and Melisandre convince Stannis, most Lords seek their Maesters advice, Donal Noye commanded the defense of the Wall in that,Stannis crushed Mance later. Jon commanded the archers. He made a loan from the IB. So do many merchants in Westeros. He ignores Mel's warnings, he takes Ramsays bait, he presses the integration of the Wildings into the North ignoring the warning signs of mounting discontent among the NW (NW men killed the previous LC, why wouldn't that happen again?). So no, it really doesn't match the intelligence of some of the people mentioned before. He above the average, but not elite yet.

[white wolfpack]

This is my best theory on avoiding cliche... Jon finds out his parentage, is in a position to use it, realizes the realm will survive without him as king, and doesn't tell anyone. Stays at the wall, saves the realm as a snow. but we'll see. I'm sure there are other ways.

[Naathi Prince]

Giving away a family heirloom to someone that isn't family while there's multiple family members around is stupid and disrespectful. What did Jeor ever did to get a Longclaw? Oh yes, was heir of Lord Mormont. Jorah returned the sword when he was exiled, because he didn't wanted to deprive his family of it. Clearly, that was foolish. Even if Jeor disaproves of the She-bears, striping away the possibility of a future male Mormont have Longclaw is toughless and short-sighted(then again, this is from the creator of the Great Ranging). I find it very hard to believe that Tarly, Harlaw, Drumm, Corbray, Stark, Dayne or others with such swords would do the same. In fact, Howland Reed saved Ned in the ToJ, but Ned didn't gave him Ice, and even returned Dawn to the Daynes.

Davos and Melisandre convince Stannis, most Lords seek their Maesters advice, Donal Noye commanded the defense of the Wall in that,Stannis crushed Mance later. Jon commanded the archers. He made a loan from the IB. So do many merchants in Westeros. He ignores Mel's warnings, he takes Ramsays bait, he presses the integration of the Wildings into the North ignoring the warning signs of mounting discontent among the NW (NW men killed the previous LC, why wouldn't that happen again?). So no, it really doesn't match the intelligence of some of the people mentioned before. He above the average, but not elite yet.

Again, I really doubt Jeor gives Longclaw to a woman, and seeing treachery coming from a coward like Bowen Marsh is beyond even Tyrion. After all, Tyrion let himself get totally played by Littlefinger at Joffrey's wedding, didn't he?