The Snowman Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Now Jon is favourite character and love his POV chapters but assuming his survival from the 'Ides of Marsh', how does his character not become the cliché of this series. By that I mean he's likely a secret Targaryen Prince/King while also having a few little things go his way through the series. Now is it that because of how unorthodox this series has become that we expect it to not have clichéd characters or is that It's just what needs to happen for the story to be given a resolute ending eg: Hero riding in and slaying the bad guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I was thinking about the who will die thread and I was going to say if GRRM doesn't want Jon to be a total cliche he will kill him off instead of having him as his Aragorn but a heroic death is also a cliche.If he becomes a hero for the wildling then that is fulfilling the mighty whitey trope (it doesn't always have to be about race). You could say killing off Ygritte made it less cliche but he seems to be upgrading to Val. Neither Ygritte or Val fulfill the chief's daughter part of the trope but Val would be even closer to it.Then there's the Jesus thing. There is a thread on that.In LOTR I guess you could say the hero Frodo failed but that gets ignored. Maybe have him fail and end up in disgrace or at least unappreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florina Laufeyson Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 And who says every cliche is bad?Tropes are Tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Another thing I think Jon is proof that GRRM doesn't subvert tropes as much as he gets credit for or isn't so different or above other fantasy as is claimed. JMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 At this point the complaint that Jon is a cliche is more of a cliche than Jon could ever hope to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Isnt Jon already a total cliche? He's already a pretty generic hero. He has the secret lineage, a magic pet, a fancy named sword sword, and a rapid rate of growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harald Hard-Ruler Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Frankly I don't think he will end up with a completely cliche or happy story in the end. I think he will be one of the key players in saving the Realm from the Others but I think he will go down in infamy as a villain (or at least an unsavoury character) in the mythology of the world.You see it now in everything he does, even if he does things for the good of the realm he comes out looking like an ass to many of the other people in the story. He's already seen by some people as power-hungry, conniving, and a turn-cloak among other things. Ultimately he has learned from Quorin that saving the realm is more important than his honour and I think he will follow through on that, even if it ultimately brings him notoriety in the long term.I definitely do not see a cliche Aragorn ending for Jon. Personally I think the fact that we never get a POV from any of the would be kings in the series suggests that neither Jon nor Dany will wind up as King in the end. For the readers though they will ultimately be the heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 And who says every cliche is bad?Tropes are Tools.I think all or most readers like some type of cliche even if they don't want to admit it and want to seem like they don't like typical things. I read Sansa fans praising her for being realistic and not being a cliche warrior like Arya but then like San/San which is a complete cliche and has been done to death now. So they pick which one is acceptable to them. I can for example like the warrior thing but as I've repeatedly said I find the Avatar mighty whitey trope unbearable.& of course if anyone likes Jon then at some level they like cliches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady of Long Lake Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Jon looks like a "cliche" because everyone else is vengeful, selfish, greedy, dishonest, murderous, misguided, manipulative, ignorant or evil. He's just a good boy in a world where there aren't many like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 There is a trope for nearly every situation or plot development. His death would be a stereotyping. So would any, all or any combination of relationships he is in. If he gets with Val, he's in Get The Girl. If he doesn't, he's Resisting The Sexy. Can't you just enjoy the ride? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Walrus Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I'll admit, hes getting a little too close to cliche territory then i'd like him to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florina Laufeyson Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Another thing I think Jon is proof that GRRM doesn't subvert tropes as much as he gets credit for or isn't so different or above other fantasy as is claimed. JMO.ARYA_Nym, sometimes there are tropes that dont need to be subverted. GRRM has to play some things straight or he runs the risk of alienating an audience. The fact that so many other tropes get subverted and deconstructed to freaking hell and back in this series, is credit enough. Personally, id rather Jon be played straight than entirely subverted. But i srsly dont want him to end up with Dany. :ack:I agree with straits. I doubt Jon would be that enjoyable if he all his tropes and character archetypes were all broken down into subversions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I doubt that Jon will end the story with a bad rep. There are plenty enough that know his true worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 ARYA_Nym, sometimes there are tropes that dont need to be subverted. GRRM has to play some things straight or he runs the risk of alienating an audience. The fact that so many other tropes get subverted and deconstructed to freaking hell and back in this series, is credit enough. Personally, id rather Jon be played straight than entirely subverted. But i srsly dont want him to end up with Dany. :ack:I agree with straits. I doubt Jon would be that enjoyable if he all his tropes and character archetypes were all broken down into subversions.There are but on this forum I constantly read things like GRRM doesn't do cliche and he always takes commonly accepted tropes and subverts them. I don't think it's as true as claimed. & some like to pretend that this series doesn't have fantasy in it but I then again think they are the ones who don't like fantasy and just want the politics.However, it's not like Jon has just one thing about him that is cliche. He has several cliches rolled up in one. He is the tailored fantasy hero. Many like to say we have been manipulated to like say Arya or Tyrion but I think this applies to Jon too. He is exactly what ones expect from fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Every character summarizes nicely into a "type" or "cliche." Talking about the clichedness characters is really unproductive, because every character we've seen can be stereotyped into a common trope (and this isn't even getting into how "cliche" it is to set a fantasy story in a pseudo Medieval context).There's a difference between cliche (an overused type) and issues like how "white" a character is. I think those often get conflated in these discussions. Being a good guy is not what makes a character "cliche." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Walrus Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 There are but on this forum I constantly read things like GRRM doesn't do cliche and he always takes commonly accepted tropes and subverts them. I don't think it's as true as claimed. & some like to pretend that this series doesn't have fantasy in it but I then again think they are the ones who don't like fantasy and just want the politics.However, it's not like Jon has just one thing about him that is cliche. He has several cliches rolled up in one. He is the tailored fantasy hero. Many like to say we have been manipulated to like say Arya or Tyrion but I think this applies to Jon too. He is exactly what ones expect from fantasy.I get your point, Martin is really good at subverting tropes when he wants too, but when hes not, they can creep into his writing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlightEcho Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 At this point the complaint that Jon is a cliche is more of a cliche than Jon could ever hope to be.xDThis ^ Jon is still one of my favourites, but I guess thats coz I like him ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Clearly Jon and Ramsey need to buddy up for a rape-n-flay road trip. The Abominable Snow Men Take Westeros. That should rid him of that nasty "good-guy" stink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 It's a good question.Personally I want Jon to come back, enact furious vengeance on Freys and Boltons and become king of Westeros. But is that the kind of thing GRRM - a writer who likes to undercut the conventions of fantasy, would do? He does like to give us a moment of triumph every now and then, hope that justice can be delivered in this world. Jon beheading Slynt for example was a huge fist pump moment for fans. But yeah, Jon sitting on the throne at the end with Ghost beside him, the Others defeated, Tyrion as lord of Casterly Rock and the Starks returned to glory at Winterfell does seem too good to be true in GRRM's setting.I think he's at least gotten it to the point where we don't expect him to do the expected thing, therefore we'll be surprised either way. So as far as wanting your story to be unpredictable, he's already achieved that goal.Ultimately I think he has a plan for where the story is going and will do whatever is right for the story, using traditional fantasy tropes or avoiding them as he sees fit. He's never set out to undercut conventions just for the sake of it or for shock effect, he knows that would be as bad as creating a story that is completely generic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Not trying to be offensive here, but I think that avid (seasoned, analytical, careful, observant, attentive, etc) readers are probably more comfortable with tropes/cliches/types/whatever because they see them all the time. The more seasoned reader will understand that 'cliche' is not necessarily a bad thing and also that 'cliche' doesn't mean what some seem to think it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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