Tyrion: Oh, What To Think

[The Dornishman's Wife]

went back

True, point taken. Not exactly deathworthy, but also not completely innocent.

[DogLover]

I do think Tyrion is going to continue down a very dark path. He has done nothing to show that he has any motivation other than revenge and Casterly Rock.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

For me, Tyrion follows a similar pattern as Dany. Meaning, he starts the series off in an extremely sympathetic light, only to "suddenly" turn dark at the end of the third book and then in the fifth. But if you go back, having the benefit of hindsight, you see that Tyrion wasn't actually as good-hearted or sympathetic as you remember. You begin to see warning signs of iffy behavior ahead (like self-pity, disrespect for women and ruthlessness in general). He was never a "good" person. It's just that he was a less-shitty person surrounded by shittier people, like Cersei, and because Cersei's opinion of him is faulty and unfair, we tend to overcompensate and perhaps think, "Well anyone whom Cersei dislikes must be OK, right?" And Catelyn accused him of something he didn't do, poor guy, right? We're almost tricked, in a way — we write off people's uninformed or ungrounded criticism of Tyrion, to the point that we start to disregard any criticism. And I think that's where the idea that Tyrion is a true "good guy" comes from, until ADWD and you can't really ignore the darkness in there anymore.

The reason Tyrion "lost me" is this: He's basically let all of his detractors, including the sister he despises, win. He's becoming the monster he was always accused of being, and he's proving them right.

[Aly]

Tyrion is the man and should sit the Iron Throne! JK, but I don't think that he's overtly bad, nor is he a saint by any means. I think that he is honest and real. Shae got what she deserved, and this is coming from a woman. Yes she was paid, (yada yada yada) but she tried to improve her station in life instead of playing her part and it backfired. As for Tyrion, he will always be my favorite character, even though I may question his thought process from time to time.

[franko99]

As for the Shae's incident, I think it was a lot of thing, not only his betray and been heart-broken, but also the way she mock him in the trial, in front of the whole court, and ultimately, her false testimony in the trial, a trial that will decide Tyrion's life, and we later know she didn't do it for fear, but for greed.

I could totally understand his actions. Will I share it, act the same way or call it OK? No, but I can see why he did it.

As for OP, what to think of Tyrion, he's one of the most interesting characters, love him or hate him, he's the one character that affect most of the story, has been involved in all the major plot-lines (or will be in the case of Dany), he has prove to be capable of great and horrible things alike. Yes he was pathetic in ADWD, but even when he hit the botton he was able to change Aegon's mind and start a new plot, one that promise to be very exciting for the next books. Will he be more black or white? I don't know, he's like a zebra to me, can be black with white stripes, or white with black stripes, it's indiferent :dunno:

BTW: No, he's not one of my favs and I'm not a big Tyrion fan, but I still expect great thing of him, good or bad

[Zupoleon]

For me, Tyrion follows a similar pattern as Dany. Meaning, he starts the series off in an extremely sympathetic light, only to "suddenly" turn dark at the end of the third book and then in the fifth. But if you go back, having the benefit of hindsight, you see that Tyrion wasn't actually as good-hearted or sympathetic as you remember. You begin to see warning signs of iffy behavior ahead (like self-pity, disrespect for women and ruthlessness in general). He was never a "good" person. It's just that he was a less-shitty person surrounded by shittier people, like Cersei, and because Cersei's opinion of him is faulty and unfair, we tend to overcompensate and perhaps think, "Well anyone whom Cersei dislikes must be OK, right?" And Catelyn accused him of something he didn't do, poor guy, right? We're almost tricked, in a way — we write off people's uninformed or ungrounded criticism of Tyrion, to the point that we start to disregard any criticism. And I think that's where the idea that Tyrion is a true "good guy" comes from, until ADWD and you can't really ignore the darkness in there anymore.

And there it is, proof positive that Tyrion is a secret Targ, a product of A+J, and a future dragon rider ;)

The reason Tyrion "lost me" is this: He's basically let all of his detractors, including the sister he despises, win. He's becoming the monster he was always accused of being, and he's proving them right.

I agree, but I do think Tyrion will "find himself" again in TWoW. I'm not saying that will excuse his prior actions, just that the reader's sympathy pendulum will start to swing back somewhat...

[kephv]

I think Dance was the lowest we'll see him go. He's going to soar from here, starting with one of Dany's dragons and probably ending up as ruler of the West by the end.

The reason Tyrion "lost me" is this: He's basically let all of his detractors, including the sister he despises, win.

Oh, he's surely not going to do that. These power games have more than one round anyway, and Tyrion has shown every sign of following through on paying his debts.

[Aly]

I think Dance was the lowest we'll see him go. He's going to soar from here, starting with one of Dany's dragons and probably ending up as ruler of the West by the end.

:agree: This.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think Dance was the lowest we'll see him go. He's going to soar from here, starting with one of Dany's dragons and probably ending up as ruler of the West by the end.

But if that comes at the cost of him ending up as a shitty human being, is it worth it? I'd rather he try to be "good" and lose than sell his soul and "win." But that's me.

And I don't see Tyrion's arc in Dance as "falling off the top and now down low" so much as "revealing that he was that low all along."

Oh, he's surely not going to do that. These power games have more than one round anyway, and Tyrion has shown every sign of following through on paying his debts.

You misunderstand me. I don't mean "win" in the shallow, game-of-thrones, bullshit political sense. I mean, he's had people think of him as a monster his entire life just because he's a dwarf, and now instead of proving them wrong by being good, he's proving them right — "letting them win" — by turning into a monstrous, ruthless, amoral bastard.

[The Mother of The Others]

He's basically let his detractors win. becoming the monster he was always accused of being, and he's proving them right.

Seems increasingly destined for only one possible fate, to be the Valonqar and burn up in a ball of bitterness and hate, not surviving his revenge attempt. Because what would be the point of surviving for him? There is no, "Now that my vendetta is finished I'm finally able to go back to a regular life of _____ ." Where would he live that regular life? He's burned all his bridges. I think that's probably why his behavior is that of someone who doesn't care anymore. He knows it's essentially over, that his lifespan is now measured by the length of time the vendetta takes to resolve. I think we'll see him functioning at a very high level in the next book, but not because life is back on track, rather because his efficiency will hasten the end he seeks.

Martin will probably devise the greatest blaze of glory possible for Tyrion and then consign him to it. Sort of a shame that he can't be the new lord of Casterly for the new regime, but that's less likely now.

Tricky to answer on the Shae murder. Not everybody would have strangled her even in Westeros, obviously. But not everybody has been subjected to the life Tyrion has. If each of us had lived Tyrion's life, I wonder what percentage of us would do just as he did. Can't say. On the news you see the daily report of someone flipping out domestically, and with less extreme provocation for losing their cool. Also, wasn't Tyrion already on his way to see daddy, basically to "thank" him for being such an ass? So his emotional state was unstable, plus Tyrion is a bit unstable on a normal day, plus the Shae betrayal, plus his anti-whoring father being a hypocrite meant all Tyrion's suffering has been for nothing but Tywin's callous whim. The world imploded on Tyrion and he went nuts. I guess that's a plausible scenario for how that might happen. Not having lived that extreme scenario, I'd have had a less extreme reaction. But how can any of us say we'd react better than Tryion if we were Tyrion? Not really a defense of the behavior, just a What If? question like we're always getting on this site.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Seems increasingly destined for only one possible fate, to be the Valonqar and burn up in a ball of bitterness and hate, not surviving his revenge attempt.

Actually no, I don't see that. The fact that Tyrion is so eager to kill Cersei, and she's so in fear of him, tells me that he won't, in fact, ever have the satisfaction of killing nor (nor will she have the morbid satisfaction of being right that it was him). Nope, I still think Jaime's good for the valonqar role.

[KingOfTheRats]

I honestly never stopped rooting for tyrion or realized how terrible some of his actions were until i started visiting this forum. I still love tyrion , but i see now how horrible some of the things he has done are. I still don't hold anything against him for killing Tywin. Tywin deserved it in my opinion. I might not being saying this if he wasn't a fictional character, but I am glad Tyrion killed Tywin and probably would have been pissed if he didn't kill him after all the "where ever whores go" thing. In my opinion killing Shae( who some could argue deserved it i guess) and what he does with the sex slave person in Dance really bother me.

[kephv]

But if that comes at the cost of him ending up as a shitty human being, is it worth it? I'd rather he try to be "good" and lose than sell his soul and "win." But that's me.

And I don't see Tyrion's arc in Dance as "falling off the top and now down low" so much as "revealing that he was that low all along."

I don't think he was like that all along. I think his demeanor in Dance came about as a result of all that came about in Storm, and partly as a deliberate act of self destruction. But there were signs toward the end that he's not going to stay that way, that being the creature that everyone said he was wasn't actually him at all.

I know a lot of people around here think Dany is (or will end up as) evil incarnate, but his likely alliance with her doesn't necessarily mean he's going to sell his soul as well. In fact, I suspect he'll be a positive influence on Dany as long as she's willing to listen.

[George W. Lannister]

Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin didn't bother me in terms of his character development. The fake confession to Jaime was what made me see him as a bit childish, and that didn't fit with most of his character traits. That was when the wheels came off...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think he was like that all along. I think his demeanor in Dance came about as a result of all that came about in Storm, and partly as a deliberate act of self destruction. But there were signs toward the end that he's not going to stay that way, that being the creature that everyone said he was wasn't actually him at all.

I know a lot of people around here think Dany is (or will end up as) evil incarnate, but his likely alliance with her doesn't necessarily mean he's going to sell his soul as well. In fact, I suspect he'll be a positive influence on Dany as long as she's willing to listen.

Yeahhhhhhh.

[kephv]

Yeahhhhhhh.

Why not? As long as their interests align, then I'm sure she'll be receptive.

[Full-Faced Braavosi]

So I might've skimmed a couple posts... but...

Woah, woah, woah... let's slow the "Tyrion is evil" train a little bit. Is he in a dark place? Yes. Is he miserable and pitiful? Without a doubt.

But what are all these evil things he's done?

The only one I can say is truly bad is killing Tywin and Shae. Did either of them really deserve death? No. But we know Tywin's deal with Tyrion, and let's quickly look at Shae.

She essentially convinced Tyrion that she loved him and was not just a paid whore. She then betrayed him by testifying against him at court (and for a higher station in life). Betrayed him by her characterization of their relationship. Betrayed him by sleeping with Tywin. Pretty terrible things. Let's not forget that by testifying against him, she is essentially sentencing him to death (or whatever his sentence is) - don't try to make this sound better by saying she was one of many or that it was still the judges' decision.

[Currawong]

Also, wasn't Tyrion already on his way to see daddy, basically to "thank" him for being such an ass? So his emotional state was unstable, plus Tyrion is a bit unstable on a normal day, plus the Shae betrayal, plus his anti-whoring father being a hypocrite meant all Tyrion's suffering has been for nothing but Tywin's callous whim. The world imploded on Tyrion and he went nuts. I guess that's a plausible scenario for how that might happen. Not having lived that extreme scenario, I'd have had a less extreme reaction. But how can any of us say we'd react better than Tryion if we were Tyrion? Not really a defense of the behavior, just a What If? question like we're always getting on this site.

Tyrion was expecting to die for his alleged role in Joffrey's murder. His brother turns up and gives him the gift of life and freedom ... but it is Tyrion who absolutely insists that he wants to know what Jaime 'owes' him, despite Jaime's warning. And then he not only flips out at Jaime, but he goes off and murders his father and Shae. For me, that showed how underneath it he was basically a nasty and petty little man in so many respects, driven all along by little boy 'I want what is MINE, Daddy' thoughts, and not actually getting on with his own life. What was to stop him going to Oldtown and studying when he came of age? Or travelling? Just that Big Daddy Twyin wouldn't have paid the bills? Being a younger son didn't stop Gerion Lannister going off on a quest, and Gerion was supposedly Tyrion's favourite uncle, who even encouraged him. Tyrion liked all the privileges of being a Lannister and having plenty of money, and the safety net of knowing that his father would never let him get into such a mess that he would bring total disgrace on the family. But he wasn't prepared to cut the apron strings for himself. Sure, being a dwarf made it very hard - but if Tyrion was as capable and clever as supposedly he was / is, then he would have found a way. He's driven by money and envy, and "I want, I want".

ETA: I liked Tyrion to start with, even sympathised in many respects, and I enjoyed his wit. But as the books went on, I came to see how ruthless, dark and nasty he really is underneath all of that outer jesting and cleverness. Aunt Genna was right - Tyrion is definitely Tywin's 'true' son.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why not? As long as their interests align, then I'm sure she'll be receptive.

I'm not making this about freaking Dany. Let's just say that I have no reason to believe she'd listen to his advice, and agree to disagree.

[Arya Stalka]

Tyrion is still a BMF in my book. I didn't view him as going in a downward spiral at all in aDwD. He's definitely a strategist and survivor. I look forward to seeing what he does next.