Tyrion: Oh, What To Think

[Ser_Patreck]

It was not Kevan and Tywin who made that offe it was Cersei. And you should know that it was Joff who changed his mind at the last minute. In ADwD Cersei clearly regrets it, that she couldn't stopped him. Tywin was furious at Cersei as well that she couldn't stop Joffrey, and they killed Ned.

Oh, I know all of that.

And you know what? Tyrion knows too.

He knows that diplomatic offers and agreements can be ignored in the worst possible moment by disturbed, half-mad, hateful sovereigns.

He also knows Cersei was Queen Mother. He also knows she had the uncontrollable, sick urge to kill him.

He also knew Ser Mandon Moore tried to kill him, supposedly on her orders, in the moment he was trying to defend her and her son.

So forgive me if I can understand Tyrion for calling bullshit on all of that.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Oh, I know all of that.

And you know what? Tyrion knows too.

He knows that diplomatic offers and agreements can be ignored in the worst possible moment by disturbed, half-mad, hateful sovereigns.

He also knows Cersei was Queen Mother. He also knows she had the uncontrollable, sick urge to kill him.

He also knew Ser Mandon Moore tried to kill him, supposedly on her orders, in the moment he was trying to defend her and her son.

So forgive me if I can understand Tyrion for calling bullshit on all of that.

Has it been confirmed then, that Mandon Moore was acting on Cersei's orders? I'm sorry if this was plain in the text and I simply forgot it, but I still am not sure whether it was Cersei or Joffrey.

[Castel]

Has it been confirmed then, that Mandon Moore was acting on Cersei's orders? I'm sorry if this was plain in the text and I simply forgot it, but I still am not sure whether it was Cersei or Joffrey.

There's a theory that LF ordered it. No one knows. But Tyrion probably thinks that it's her, just as Cersei thinks that Tyrion killed Joff

[Silverin]

Oh, I know all of that.

And you know what? Tyrion knows too.

He knows that diplomatic offers and agreements can be ignored in the worst possible moment by disturbed, half-mad, hateful sovereigns.

He also knows Cersei was Queen Mother. He also knows she had the uncontrollable, sick urge to kill him.

Exept this time Tywin is there and he actually can stop Cersei. The dynamic between Cersei and Joffrey and Tywin and Cersei is different after all.

He also knew Ser Mandon Moore tried to kill him, supposedly on her orders, in the moment he was trying to defend her and her son.

So forgive me if I can understand Tyrion for calling bullshit on all of that.

I can understand tyrion not believing it also.

That was not the thing I was arguing, but that it was a sincere offer from Kevan and Tywin.

[Stannis ftw]

I just cannot see any logical reason that should *should* go against Cersei. She has no loyalty to Tyrion. She had no emotional attachment to Tyrion. She gained nothing from it.

[...]

In any case, that completely disregard's the underlying issue here, that there is a thought that Shae *owes* Tyrion something. She *owes* him to not hurt his feelings. She *owes* him to be fair. But she is not his friend, nor his wife, nor his lover, sister, family. She is a woman he paid to have sex with and whom he pretended was his girlfriend, at significant risk to her safety.

Interesting... or disturbing.

In my mind - and I would say it is widely accepted by men of good will - the most basic human decency dictates some basic things. One of them certainly not to bear false witness against another. Everybody *owes* everybody that much.

The argumentation of this writer is, if you "gain nothing from it", or if you are "not his friend, nor his wife, nor his lover, sister, family", why wouldn´t you give false witness? There´s no reason not to.

[Winter's Knight]

Interesting... or disturbing.

In my mind - and I would say it is widely accepted by men of good will - the most basic human decency dictates some basic things. One of them certainly not to bear false witness against another. Everybody *owes* everybody that much.

The argumentation of this writer is, if you "gain nothing from it", or if you are "not his friend, nor his wife, nor his lover, sister, family", why wouldn´t you give false witness? There´s no reason not to.

Actually, the argument is why wouldn't you give false witness against someone who is nothing to you when the alternative is-at the very least-imprisonment?

When Tyrion himself spent ACoK telling Shae how dangerous his father is and how he gave his last long-term lover over to a barrack of soldiers,when she probably knows what happened to Yaya just for having a passing link to Tyrion, why should Shae seriously consider earning the wrath of this family for a man who gave her absolutely nothing?

[Stannis ftw]

Actually, the argument is why wouldn't you give false witness against someone who is nothing to you when the alternative is-at the very least-imprisonment?

When Tyrion himself spent ACoK telling Shae how dangerous his father is and how he gave his last long-term lover over to a barrack of soldiers,when she probably knows what happened to Yaya just for having a passing link to Tyrion, why should Shae seriously consider earning the wrath of this family for a man who gave her absolutely nothing?

Actually, the aforementioned writer Lyanna Stark discussed these dangers at length but then switched gears: "In any case, that completely disregard's the underlying issue here..." and then went to the *owes* discussion. So the *owes* discussion was regardless of possible danger.

[Currawong]

on a separate note:

I think that this is a really troubling scene. I was talking with another poster about this recently, and we couldn't decide how we were supposed to read this scene exactly. That is, are we intended to believe that any 13 year old boy with fear of his father/ wanting to please his father would engage in the gang rape without physical coercion, or does Martin intend for us to question whether Tyrion's response is "wrong." There are cases of child soldiers where the brainwashing and group mentality is so strong these young boys go back to their villages and rape people they once knew and loved (even their siblings, mothers, etc), so I know that what Tyrion faced (essentially) is possible, and many of these boys do as Tyrion did. I suppose I wonder whether we're supposed to read what happened with Tysha and Tyrion's response as "normal." I suppose that I'm unclear on the authorial intent.

I have asked myself much the same questions. The only thing about those child soldiers is that their 'brainwashing' occurs over some time, after they've been taken away from their homes and have lived in a 'soldier' community, whereas Tyrion was coerced almost instantly. OTOH, there are those very troubling Milgram experiments (involving adult participants of both sexes) which Kolantero referred to a few pages ago, about the willingness of ordinary people to inflict physical pain on others just because an authority figure demands it.

I don't know what Martin was intending to show by the incident, or what we are supposed to conclude. Except that we can all probably agree that Tywin Lannister was one VERY sick person himself, if he could even think of such a thing, let alone inflict it on a young woman and his own son.

[Castel]

I can't be the only one that finds it a bit of a stretch that a thirteen year old boy would,of his own volition, go and have sex with a woman he loved in front of his father (and possibly house guards),who had had sex with a dozen men at least, and was bleeding because he had an erection. I may just be an optimist but I literally cannot imagine anyone getting an erection and deciding "I'm going to go along with this. A man has needs after all."

[Lyanna Stark]

Actually, the aforementioned writer Lyanna Stark discussed these dangers at length but then switched gears: "In any case, that completely disregard's the underlying issue here..." and then went to the *owes* discussion. So the *owes* discussion was regardless of possible danger.

Nope, it was *in addition to* the possible danger.

[butterbumps!]

I can't be the only one that finds it a bit of a stretch that a thirteen year old boy would,of his own volition, go and have sex with a woman he loved in front of his father (and possibly house guards),who had had sex with a dozen men at least, and was bleeding because he had an erection. I may just be an optimist but I literally cannot imagine anyone getting an erection and deciding "I'm going to go along with this. A man has needs after all."

I agree; I don't think Tyrion's response would stem from genuine arousal, and that he'd choose to satisfy his sexual "needs" in this format. For the record, I do believe the incident was highly coercive. The aspect of this that I'd questioned in terms of any "willing" participation on his part is whether the newfound knowledge of Tysha's being a "whore" played any potential role in the matter, i.e. if Tyrion had believed she deserved this in any way, and if so, whether that might have been a contributing factor to any "willingness."

[Stannis ftw]

I can't be the only one that finds it a bit of a stretch that a thirteen year old boy would,of his own volition, go and have sex with a woman he loved in front of his father (and possibly house guards),who had had sex with a dozen men at least, and was bleeding because he had an erection. I may just be an optimist but I literally cannot imagine anyone getting an erection and deciding "I'm going to go along with this. A man has needs after all."

Youre not the only one. This is just very poor writing from GRRM and/or manifestation of his love for extremely perverted sex scenes. Even though many 13 year old boys may have erection more often than not, this ultimately fucked-up situation would be huge turn-off to anybody, lets say anybody non-Ramsay, but even if you for some reason get an erection at that point, whether you have erection or not would be, what they call a "non-issue".

[Belisarius09]

At the end of the day can't we just agree that both Tysha and Tyrion were victims of an utterly horrible situation?

Arguing who was more of a victim or who was less of a victim seems rather pointless to me. It was horrible, clear and simple. I don't think we need to say 'Tysha was physically raped wheras Tyrion was only mentally raped blah blah blah'. None of that really matters, it was horrible. Simply horrible.

Returning to the original purpose of the thread....

I still like Tyrion as a character. I'm looking forwards to what his part to play in the battle of Mereen will be. Will he finally get to meet Dany? What will her reaction to him being a Lannister be?

[KAH]

But why should she? What should make her balk at Cersei and even risk her wrath? Shae is very aware of her status as a commoner. And after all, when she spoke out of turn, even Tyrion, who professed to love her, hit her.

I just cannot see any logical reason that should *should* go against Cersei. She has no loyalty to Tyrion. She had no emotional attachment to Tyrion. She gained nothing from it. Balking or going against Cersei carry only negative consequences for Shae. Also, knowing that you face torture or knowing that most likely, the consequences will be unpleasant as the Lannisters, the Queen, the Hand of the King all have absolute powers over a commoner's life is kinda arbitrary. Does it matter if Shae knew or suspected that she may be facing torture? Or worse? Or "just" a stint in the dungeons? Or perhaps washing out of her private parts with lye, Tarly style? the only limit here is one's imagination. To particularly demand that Shae should know the exact penalty for not comforming makes a lot of coercion non existant. In fact, it makes Tyrion's rape of Tysha non-coercive since he did not know the exact punishment for refusing.

Coercion can happen easily enough without a clearly stated punishment.

Lannister "justice" is well known too, even if Shae did not know the particulars of Alayaya. She had also heard Tyrion go on and on about how dangerous it was to her, and exposed to Cersei et al, she was certainly in danger.

In any case, that completely disregard's the underlying issue here, that there is a thought that Shae *owes* Tyrion something. She *owes* him to not hurt his feelings. She *owes* him to be fair. But she is not his friend, nor his wife, nor his lover, sister, family. She is a woman he paid to have sex with and whom he pretended was his girlfriend, at significant risk to her safety. (After all, Tywin did not threaten to hang Tyrion, he threatened to hang Tyrion's whore.)

Why would she indeed?

If your ship sinks at sea in a storm, and you find yourself in a lifeboat with hardly any food and water - and you see a guy you chatted casually with the day before, now struggling to keep afloat in the water...would you bother to row over and help him? You don't owe him anything, after all.

He's going to be eating your food and water without bringing anything, so basically he's endangering your life if you save him. And after all, he's so far away, you're probably not going to reach him anyway.

I mean, if what you're getting at is if Shae's actions are believable, I have absolutely no quarrel with that. Everything we learn about her, her past and her occupation, makes this outcome probable. Prostitutes can be expected to have a rather cynical approach to life, and with good reason. In fact, if GRRM had made her throw out a valiant defense of Tyrion during the trial, I would have found that to be exceedingly shitty writing.

That said, the fact that her motivation is quite understandable, do not make her actions anything but cold calculation; Tyrion's a spent mine of gold, might as well make a buck on helping out those who want to see him dead.

As for coercion, if she really thought Cersei was going to torture her, the only smart thing to do would be to flee KL as soon as the trial was over - rather than jump up on Cersei's door step and demand all the goodies that were promised. If you're dealing with people that mercurial, it would be better to not tempt fate.

[mormont]

Thread locked for length and some discussion removed. People, if you are going to get into these extremely sensitive topics, please first consider whether it is necessary: and second, consider how you can do so with due sensitivity. And do not get into flaming each other.