Tyrion: Oh, What To Think

[Lyanna Stark]

Wait, who here has said that Arya's murders are ok and that she is not a perpetrator? Nobody as far as I can see, so perhaps time to drop that straw man?

[SeanF]

Yeah, because all slaves in Essos get thrown to lions, and no servant in Westeros was ever killed for petty reasons like refusing to pay his lord proper respect or simply because it would be amusing. See: The people Joffrey shot with a crossbow for daring to protest against the famine.

Most slaves in Essos aren't that worse than the servants in Westeros. They are property, sure, but they are expensive property, a not everyone is rich as the Yellow Whale. Mostly, they do their jobs and get "paid" in food and shelter.

In other words: Who do you think has it better, Illyrio's slaves or Roose Bolton's servants?

The fact that Tyrion noticed that is proof of his perspicacity, not blindness. His blindness is mostly restricted to himself.

The difference is that slaves are chattels, and there is absolutely no punishment for killing, raping, or mutilating a chattel. In Westeros, the Smallfolk do have rights, even though the lords are vastly more powerful than they are, and even though the Smallfolk are often denied justice. The Smallfolk of the Riverlands come before Ned Stark to seek justice for Ser Gregor's atrocities. They couldn't do that if they were slaves. Ser Rodrik Cassel executes Ramsay Bolton (he thinks) on the spot for murdering and raping a woman.

In a slave-owning society, the slave owners could seek redress for wrongs done to their slaves - as damages for destruction of their property - but not the slaves.

[Kittykatknits]

The difference is that slaves are chattels, and there is absolutely no punishment for killing, raping, or mutilating a chattel. In Westeros, the Smallfolk do have rights, even though the lords are vastly more powerful than they are, and even though the Smallfolk are often denied justice. The Smallfolk of the Riverlands come before Ned Stark to seek justice for Ser Gregor's atrocities. They couldn't do that if they were slaves. Ser Rodrik Cassel executes Ramsay Bolton (he thinks) on the spot for murdering and raping a woman.

And Roose Bolton was very careful about word of his acts getting back to Ned. The Tyrells recognized the importance of seeming to care about the small folk of KL, Tarly punished rapists, Stannis punished rapists, and Edmure allowed his small folk in to KL.

[Scipio Africanus]

In other words: Who do you think has it better, Illyrio's slaves or Roose Bolton's servants?

Roose Bolton's servants. Because they in theory still have the option to leave. A slave has no options at all, unless his master buys him/her his/her freedom, which obviously doesn't happen that often.

That the smallfolk don't have equal rights or equal chances to happiness as the highborn in Westeros is actually a different problem.

[Ser_Patreck]

Wait, who here has said that Arya's murders are ok and that she is not a perpetrator? Nobody as far as I can see, so perhaps time to drop that straw man?

No one. But if I said Arya was a monster because she killed without remorse and that should be held against her, very few people would agree with me. Most would say "Yes, she killed, but she killed because...". Which is exactly what myself, Sevumar and others are saying about Tyrion.

The difference is that slaves are chattels, and there is absolutely no punishment for killing, raping, or mutilating a chattel. In Westeros, the Smallfolk do have rights, even though the lords are vastly more powerful than they are, and even though the Smallfolk are often denied justice. The Smallfolk of the Riverlands come before Ned Stark to seek justice for Ser Gregor's atrocities. They couldn't do that if they were slaves. Ser Rodrik Cassel executes Ramsay Bolton (he thinks) on the spot for murdering and raping a woman.

In a slave-owning society, the slave owners could seek redress for wrongs done to their slaves - as damages for destruction of their property - but not the slaves.

Which means, in practice, they they live more or less the same lives. Ned offers them justice because he is Ned. Rodrick Cassel offers them justice because he's Rodrick Cassel. If the King was Aerys, if the Hand of the King was Tywin, if Rodrick Cassel was Amory Lorch, their rights would make no difference whatsoever.

Roose Bolton's servants. Because they in theory still have the option to leave. A slave has no options at all, unless his master buys him/her his/her freedom, which obviously doesn't happen that often.

That the smallfolk don't have equal rights or equal chances to happiness as the highborn in Westeros is actually a different problem.

Correct. In theory. In practice, where would they go/ Even if they could leave, they would just go to work under a different lord. Illyrio's slaves probably lead way better lives than most of Westerosi smallfolk.

[butterbumps!]

Yes, ze did.

Please provide the quotes where I explicitly said that Tyrion's past must be ignored when determining whether we should sympathize with Tyrion's current predicaments? I don't understand what you think I'm saying, and I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I'm arguing that the Tyrion we meet has baggage from his past. I'm arguing that this baggage doesn't excuse the behaviors we see him do over the course of the series. Since you keep insisting that no one, including yourself is trying to excuse Tyrion's current behavior because of past abuses, what are you arguing with me over?

What does it have to do? Oh, I don't know. Most of his problems stem from his self-hate, lack of proper social tact (AKA: Knowing when to stop cracking jokes), self-pity, blindness to his own situation and the fact he is a dwarf. And all of those problems in fact, do come from his troubled childhood.

Ok, but wait. Are you citing these things as excuses, or are you trying to say that you personally sympathize with Tyrion because of these issues you are citing? This looks very much like you are attributing Tyrion's adult behavior to his victimization in the past. If you are not excusing Tyrion's behavior due to these factors but merely citing them as reasons why you personally find Tyrion sympathetic because you appreciate the rationale for his actions, then we are not in disagreement.

Perhaps. But it isn't.

Maybe it would be productive if you listed the misfortunes that Tyrion faces over the course of the series so I can better understand what you believe Tyrion is an unequivocal victim of by no fault of his own versus the misfortunes you believe he played a part in?

Yes, when you remove the "sympathetic veneer", that is, the knowledge and acceptance of Tyrion's childhood and how he is emotionally stunted, his actions sure seem monstrous. Taken out of context, Arya's murders look like the job of a psychopath. Your point?

Honest textual criticism requires looking both through the character's eyes, as well as at the character more objectively, removed from the character's head. By looking only at the characters' rationalization in their own mind, there is no basis for discussion, because it becomes a matter of opinion and taste, i.e. "Tyrion's a good guy because he seems reasonable."

[Silverin]

Which means, in practice, they they live more or less the same lives. Ned offers them justice because he is Ned. Rodrick Cassel offers them justice because he's Rodrick Cassel. If the King was Aerys, if the Hand of the King was Tywin, if Rodrick Cassel was Amory Lorch, their rights would make no difference whatsoever.

Correct. In theory. In practice, where would they go/ Even if they could leave, they would just go to work under a different lord. Illyrio's slaves probably lead way better lives than most of Westerosi smallfolk.

Actually the freedome to leave your Lord is a huge right, because for a long time in my country it was not even given to people. When they were free to move that was huge improvement. Granted not for anyone, and granted for a lot of people still didn't mean a huge imporvement, but for others it meant. It was another option another chance. Every single small right worth a lot.

Just like in my country at a lot of workplace they disregard the workers rights. But it is not the same as a country where those rights don't even exist. That kind of thinking is an incredible oversimplification.

And as for comparing Illyrio and Roose, Roose made sure to cover the fact he raped Ramsay's mom up. That already speaks that it is not the same situation, since a slaveowner cannot be punished because he raped his slaves, while Roose could have been punished.

EDIT: tyrion's thinking that being a slave is same as being part of teh smallfolke is actually shows just how damn privilaged he is.

A poet said it in a poem, I didn't find an English translation, but the main thing is that those who have a lot of freedome just look at the people who are going to war for improving their rights, and since they recieved those rights as a heritage, they don't understand just how much they actually worth.

[Ser_Patreck]

Please provide the quotes where I explicitly said that Tyrion's past must be ignored when determining whether we should sympathize with Tyrion's current predicaments?

You don't explicitly say that. You do imply, however, because you say that Tyrion's problems were mostly of his own doing ignoring the fact that most of his actions and omissions are motivated by his psychological make-up which is heavily affected by the traumas he went through in his early childhood, and continues going through to this day.

I don't understand what you think I'm saying, and I'm not sure what you're arguing here.

I think you're saying that Tyrion's actions in the timeframe of the books are wholly independent of the issues he has, which are motivated by his early childhood experiences. I'm arguing against that.

'm arguing that the Tyrion we meet has baggage from his past. I'm arguing that this baggage doesn't excuse the behaviors we see him do over the course of the series.

It doesn't fully excuses, no, but it goes a long way to explaining and justificating.

Since you keep insisting that no one, including yourself is trying to excuse Tyrion's current behavior because of past abuses, what are you arguing with me over?

I'm arguing you over the way you portray Tyrion as a fully functioning adult, with a full range of possible courses of actions that consciously chooses bad ones.

Ok, but wait. Are you citing these things as excuses, or are you trying to say that you personally sympathize with Tyrion because of these issues you are citing? This looks very much like you are attributing Tyrion's adult behavior to his victimization in the past. If you are not excusing Tyrion's behavior due to these factors but merely citing them as reasons why you personally find Tyrion sympathetic because you appreciate the rationale for his actions, then we are not in disagreement.

I'm citing these to show that Tyrion is not a fully functioning adult, that he has a very limited range of actions available and that most of his decisions aren't conscious but merely the result of his traumas driving his actions.

Maybe it would be productive if you listed the misfortunes that Tyrion faces over the course of the series so I can better understand what you believe Tyrion is an unequivocal victim of by no fault of his own versus the misfortunes you believe he played a part in?

That's the point - There's no clear category. Example; He keeps Shae at his side, he deludes himself thinking she loves him, he endangers both himself and her, he makes himself vulnerable. You seem to think this is a mistake in which he has full responsibility. I agree he is responsible. But I can also understand that he keeps her close and deludes himself because he is always starving for any sort of intimacy, and that is because, back in his childhood, no one seemed to fully love and accept him for what he was, including his father and sister, and he has no control over that.

Honest textual criticism requires looking both through the character's eyes, as well as at the character more objectively, removed from the character's head. By looking only at the characters' rationalization in their own mind, there is no basis for discussion, because it becomes a matter of opinion and taste, i.e. "Tyrion's a good guy because he seems reasonable."

You seem to think that it's only possible to sympathize with Tyrion if we look at him through his own eyes. Even objectively looking at him, I can still see someone who's mostly a victim of abuse and neglect.

[KingOfTheRats]

LOUD NOISES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love this forum, but hate how serious, mean, and disrespectful people get on here. Can everyone be nice and respect each other's opinions about a fictional character without insulting each other? This was an opinion question I am pretty sure, not force your feelings about tyrion on to everyone else thread or insult them if they think differently... i hope at least. I know some of you have reread and analyzed tryion's character a lot, but that still doesn't mean your word is the end all be all when it comes to Tryion and can imply people are stupid for thinking otherwise. I don't think GRRM would consider or intended for tyrion to be a completely good or bad guy at least so far in the series and i also do not think GRRM intended for tyrion to come come across anywhere near as evil as Cersi, but i respect and acknowledge that people may see him as that evil and do not consider u wrong.

( I am saying this to no one specifically, but just in general. Besides people saying he is completely black or white, i really like all the opinions and insights brought up so far :cheers:)

[Ser_Patreck]

And as for comparing Illyrio and Roose, Roose made sure to cover the fact he raped Ramsay's mom up. That already speaks that it is not the same situation, since a slaveowner cannot be punished because he raped his slaves, while Roose could have been punished.

Roose hide his actions because Ned was Ned. The fate of the smallfolk was largely dependent of Eddard Stark's sense of honor and fairness. The fate of the slaves is completely dependent on their owners' sense of fairness and benevolence. There's almost no difference there but the 'steps' towards the ultimate authority whose benevolence they depend on. Hence Tyrion saying that the lives of slaves and servants is not that different, and it is not.

I'm not saying that chattel slavery is the same as servitude. I'm saying that, looking objectively at their conditions at the sries' point in time, Tyrion is correct in saying that, in practice, they're not very different from one another.

[SeanF]

Which means, in practice, they they live more or less the same lives. Ned offers them justice because he is Ned. Rodrick Cassel offers them justice because he's Rodrick Cassel. If the King was Aerys, if the Hand of the King was Tywin, if Rodrick Cassel was Amory Lorch, their rights would make no difference whatsoever.

It's possible that Illyrio's slaves are better treated than Roose Bolton's servants, although we don't really have enough information on either to determine the issue. Almost certainly, living standards are higher in Pentos than they are at the Dreadfort, and surrounding lands.

I don't doubt that a lot of household slaves are treated very well in Essos. But there's plenty of textual evidence of slaves being treated appallingly (children being fed to bears as a form of entertainment, being crucified and disembowelled, having their skin flayed off for raising their hands against their master, boys and girls being kept in brothels etc.) And the difference with Westeros is that all of these things are quite lawful.

In Slavers' Bay, it would be quite lawful for Ramsay Bolton to hunt, rape, and flay his slaves, if he so chose, and his peers would not condemn him for it. In the North, the nobility who are aware of Ramsay's actions are completely disgusted by them. And were the Warden of the North anyone other than his father, he'd be facing severe punishment for his actions.

[Darryk]

Apart from all the wanton killings, rapes and murders? Then yes. As Sean F says, that is how Tyrion sees *himself* and how he presents himself to the readers.

But that is not necessarily the objective truth. Tyrion often goes too far and a lot of the things he does are way, way "too far".

At the point this dialogue occurred I don't believe Tyrion had partaken in any murders. Either way, "wanton killings" seems harsh, he murdered a singer who was attempting to blackmail him, his father who had lied to him about his own wife and made him watch her get gang raped, and Shae who had given a false testimony that would have resulted in Tyrion being executed.

Now, the rape of Tysha is another matter, I admit to being influenced by the series (which I saw before reading the book) where Tyrion says that he was made to watch, not participate, and that Tysha had "silver spilling through her fingers".

In the book Tywin allows the guards to rape her and makes Tyrion participate, obviously a big difference and I admit my perception of Tyrion is coloured by the series somewhat. He's an easy character to root for in the books, but even more so in the series IMO thanks to Peter Dinklage's excellent performance and them leaving out the bit about him participating in the rape.

BUT, even how it is in the book (I may need to re-read the scenes where he describes it as my memory is hazy), it has to be taken account that he is a 13 year old boy who is terrified of his father. It doesn't excuse it, nothing excuses it, but it's a completely different situation, a whole different dynamic and can't be compared to the case of Chitwick and Gregor for example.

Also you say Tyrion always sees himself as the victim but never as the perpetrator, I disagree with that. Tyrion does bear a lot of bitterness and self-pity it's true (although most of the time I find it hard not to empathize with him to be honest), but a lot of the time he also comes across as quite aware of the reality of things and his own privileged position. For example, when he's thinking about how all the smallfolk hate him despite his attempts to help them, he also thinks to himself "but then, I'm well fed and they are not". I think Tyrion realizes the truth of things more then people give him credit for, but still can't help feeling sorry for himself, it's human nature.

And regarding Tysha, I got the impression there was a significant shift in his attitude once he found out she wasn't a whore, that Jaime had lied to him about that. At that point he starts to feel that he failed Tysha, allowed her to be raped, and it's a blind rage resulting from that which leads him to put the crossbow bolt in Tywin's stomach. I can't find the passages to prove it right now but somewhere in ADWD he says something to the effect of "I put the cloak of protection around her shoulders as part of the wedding rite, but I didn't protect her". He realizes Tysha was as much as a victim as himself and he failed to protect her.

I think that's a very good description of how Tyrion sees himself and how he thinks the rest of the World treats him. And, there's some truth in it.

But, at the start of AGOT, Tyrion is actually one of the most powerful men in Westeros. His father provides him with unlimited money, a military training, servants, and then fights a war to free him, when he's been taken prisoner. And then, he makes him is Deputy. Tywin says - and does- some awful things to Tyrion, but he fully intends to advance his career, and to make him one of the great lords of the Kingdom, as we see when he offers him Sansa, and makes him Master of Coin.

It's true, he is in a privileged position and he often acknowledges this. But a child instinctively seeks the approval of one's parents, and even if Tyrion may pretend not to care what his father thinks, there's an unspoken knowledge between them that Tywin doesn't acknowledge Tyrion's worth, and his speech after Tyrion demands Casterly Rock would confirm that.

I think Tyrion is deeply stung by that speech, especially after what he achieved as Hand. The ultimate rejection from his father, anything that his father offers him after that would just come as another form of rejection.

Yes, Tywin plans to make Tyrion lord of Winterfel, which is a huge honour, but deep down Tyrion would feel it's just another way for his father to get him far away from Casterly Rock, somewhere he can't take part in anything, up far north where all the northmen would resent Tyrion and probably plot his downfall anyway. It would just come across as another form of rejection from his father, which may sound ridiculous (it's Winterfel, a prestigious seat after all) but I think father's rejection in such a harsh manner as that speech at the beginning of ASOS would run deep.

[No one Stark]

I don't see how people even find him as a bad character.

He killed shae and Tywin because they both betrayed him and after finding out that the only girl who loved him was whored away by his father I would've done the same thing. Tywin can barely be considered Tyrion's father by the way he's treated him.

When has Tyrion acted evil without good reason? I can't think of any. He even saved Aegon for no good reason.

Tyrion should only be viewed evil by other characters in the book because they don't have his POV

[Éadaoin]

I don't see how people even find him as a bad character.

Did you read through the whole thread? IIRC some people went into depth about the things they don't like about Tyrion. Kittykatknits has an excellent post on the first page that goes into her struggles with the character.

Personally, while I think he is an excellent character writing-wise, one thing off the top of my head that puts me off is his treatment of women. And I'd also recommend the Tyrion Reread threads, they are very good.

[1234567]

Even after Tyrion sees how nicely courteous she can be to Kevan and Lancel he quickly goes back to wondering whether she'd be stupid enough to want to be in Margaery's place - Joffrey orders her father executed, he has the Kingsguard hit her, he has her stripped and beaten before the court, he threatens in public to rape her, but maybe she'd like to be married to him?

Clearly Tyrion has been reading 50 Shades of Grey.

[Silverin]

You don't explicitly say that. You do imply, however, because you say that Tyrion's problems were mostly of his own doing ignoring the fact that most of his actions and omissions are motivated by his psychological make-up which is heavily affected by the traumas he went through in his early childhood, and continues going through to this day.

Childhood traumas affect all of as. Tyrion had a shitty childhood with a lot of abuse. Sandor had a shitty childhood with a lot of abuse, so did Cersei. So did Samwell, and so did Ramsay Bolton. If abuse is what makes him do what he does, Pya would be the biggest serial killer in the whole Kingdom.... However it does not absolve the responsibilities of ones crimes.

A lot of serial killer, murderer criminal in real life had an abusive childhood. Doesn't mean their crime is OK then.

It doesn't fully excuses, no, but it goes a long way to explaining and justificating.

You basically saying it almost excuses it. Explaining is not excusing stop mixing the two up. Explanation doesn't make the crimes go away, the people he killed stay dead for example.

I'm arguing you over the way you portray Tyrion as a fully functioning adult, with a full range of possible courses of actions that consciously chooses bad ones.

I'm citing these to show that Tyrion is not a fully functioning adult, that he has a very limited range of actions available and that most of his decisions aren't conscious but merely the result of his traumas driving his actions.

Then what is he? A child? If he is not a fully capable adult, does that mean he is mentally ill? I disagree. I think Tyrion is a fully capable adult, he is able to make choices on his own.

There is a story. It is about a father who is drunk and abuses his two sons. Later the sons grow up, a man who know them ask one of them who abuses his children and drunk as well, why does he live like that? The son answers, whit a father like that what choice did I have but to be like him? The man meets the other son, he grow up to be a decent man, doesn't drink and is kind to his children. The man ask him why did he turn out like that? He answer with a father like that I had no choice but to became the opposite to him.

All of us has a choice, maybe we don't even realise when we are presented with them but it is there. If there is no choice both son would have taken the same path, but they didn't.

EDIT: tyrion's choice is that he wants tywin's acceptance, and he wants to be like him. That is why he is more and more like him. See Genna for example. She told Jaime TYrion is Tywin's true son.

[TalalOfDorne]

Something else I have noticed about Tyrion that adds to his similarity to his father Tywin is how prickly they are about their pride and how far they go to avenge their (supposedly) wounded pride.

[Lyanna Stark]

No one. But if I said Arya was a monster because she killed without remorse and that should be held against her, very few people would agree with me. Most would say "Yes, she killed, but she killed because...". Which is exactly what myself, Sevumar and others are saying about Tyrion.

"Very few", perhaps, but you are totally barking up the wrong tree with thinking the majority of posters you disagree with here (i.e. me, Butterbumps!, kittykat et al) are necessarily in the category you think. As evidenced by the Arya re-read thread many of us are participating in. You can check it here and more specifically a debunking of Arya as blameless and badass here. It is run in a similar vein to the Tyrion re-read hosted by Lummel, Ragnorak and Butterbumps! in that it aims to ciritically examine a character arc through a careful reread. Hence why I think Butterbumps! posts are based on sound reasoning based on a close reread of Tyrion's chapters and should not be so out of hand dismissed, especially by emotional arguments not based on the text. The fact is that a good case can be made of textual evidence that Tyrion is "digging his own grave" (proverbially) and that he is blaming his dwarfism and his own victimhood for almost everything.

By enhancing his victimhood as all encompassing (which is what Tyrion himself uses to justify a lot of his actions to himself) as critical readers, we do not have to agree, since he is still in a better position than many far more victimised people.

Also, like Silverin is pointing out, a lot of people had shit childhoods or go through traumas of various kinds. Sandor Clegane, Arya Stark, Sansa Stark, Daenerys Targaryen, Brienne, Cersei etc. not to mention characters like pretty Pia or Pretty Meris, but this does not absolve these people of blame for hideous moral actions.

If you feel this reading of Tyrion is totally wrong, then perhaps the re-read thread is a good place to argue based on textual evidence that your reading of Tyrion is a more correct one.

[butterbumps!]

I think you're saying that Tyrion's actions in the timeframe of the books are wholly independent of the issues he has, which are motivated by his early childhood experiences. I'm arguing against that.

I'm not saying that, and the post you just quoted explicitly said otherwise, as did all my posts that you keep disagreeing with for some reason. What I've repeatedly argued is that his abuses do not remove his culpability in doing immoral things, which is apparently what you also believe. I even repeatedly stated how reasonable and sympathetic Tyrion always looks. I've made distinctions between his being the victim of past abuses versus the conscious role he has played in things that have backfired on him.

I think in my very first post here I stated that Tyrion is largely a prisoner of his own doing. To clarify what this means, I don't deny that Tyrion has suffered for reasons other than his own doing at times (as everyone has), but every victim has a choice: rise above the injustices and be a better person or succumb to those abuses and become self-pitying or a victimizer yourself. The Tyrion we see chooses to sink to the level of those around him, and fails to understand that he is as much victimizer as he is a victim in many cases. He has a tendency to drown in self-pity, and resultantly does not realize that his mindset is part of his own problems. Not everyone who suffers becomes self-pitying or a victimizer in their own right; Tyrion's past explains where he's coming from and provides a framework for sympathizing with him, but it's important to realize that he did not have to turn out with the attitude he has. I sympathize with his struggle, I really do, but I don't believe that Tyrion's behaviors are fundamentally dictated by his past-- (by "fundamentally dictated," I mean that it would be impossible for him to have turned out any other way.)

You seem to think that it's only possible to sympathize with Tyrion is we look at him through his own eyes. Even objectively looking at him, I can still see someone who's mostly a victim of abuse and neglect.

I am not sure that's fully accurate; what on-screen abuses do we see from other perspectives that render him a victim of abuse and neglect that he has played no part of? I can see an argument for the fact that the smallfolk calls his him the demon monkey, but there's deeper issues going on with that that speak to other factors. For instance, Tywin sent Tyrion in his stead as acting Hand during a time he knew the city would be turning against the authorities (KL was a mess and starving). Tywin sent Tyrion as a patsy, as he knew he was capable of setting the city to rights, but would also be a sacrificial lamb given that conditions were likely to worsen before they improved. Tyrion accepted the position despite knowing his family's wrongness, and knowing that they planned to destroy Houses that were actually in the right. Tyrion was sent as damage control for atrocities committed at his family's hand. Tyrion could have refused so that Tywin or Kevan would be forced into taking the position, and let them get their own hands dirty. The smallfolk called him a demon monkey, but the reason they hated him is because they placed the worsened conditions of KL on his arrival (the only variable in the government before and after), which is exactly what Tywin expected in sending Tyrion to do his work, and had Tyrion not been so tempted, he'd likely have seen through his father's designs here.

[Lummel]

Something else I have noticed about Tyrion that adds to his similarity to his father Tywin is how prickly they are about their pride and how far they go to avenge their (supposedly) wounded pride.

Yes, I wonder if their similarities cause some of the problems, come ASOS at times there almost seems to be competition between the two. Genna's statement to Jaime in AFFC that Tyrion was Tywin's son is very true.

In terms of what Tyrion becomes I suspect that Tywin will be the biggest influence.