Tyrion: Oh, What To Think

[Winter's Knight]

Rape is rape, imo.

And before he rapes her, he thinks, "Perhaps she was captured by some slaver as a child." To me it seems like he grasped the situation well enough. Not like it mattered either way to his victim. Sorry, I did not mean for this post to turn into a discussion on rape, but I felt I should respond.

Rule #5 Eadie my love.

[protar]

Rape is rape, imo.

And before he rapes her, he thinks, "Perhaps she was captured by some slaver as a child." To me it seems like he grasped the situation well enough. Not like it mattered either way to his victim. Sorry, I did not mean for this post to turn into a discussion on rape, but I felt I should respond.

I agree that it is no less horrible for the victim, and I admit that I haven't read it in a while so I perhaps have forgotten the finer details. But again, I personally don't like to make blanket statements on ANY acts, including rape. I feel it is better to take each situation on it's individual features, and I feel it this case, it was supposed to be tragic rather than villainous.

I also believe that any character can be redeemed in this series. If we can redeem characters like Jaime and Theon, with large checkered pasts, then Tyrion can be redeemed for this one act.

I don't really want this to turn in to a rape discussion either, as I tend to get pretty overwhelmed with them (not from personal experience mind, just from the heavy nature of the topic.). However I think that the rape scene is one of the centrepieces of Tyrion's morality, so I didn't feel right discussing that without mentioning it.

[Silverin]

Victim blaming is when you blame the victim and not the perpetrator. It's not limited to rape. Tywin had Tyrion under his thumb and knew it. Tywin sent Tyrion to King's Landing. You call this Tyrion's choice completely writing off the sheer power Tywin exercised over Tyrion.

I know it is not limited to rape why do you think I brought up Cersei as another example?

Tyrion actually said no to Tywin and defied him sometime, like in the case of Shae, Tywin said not to bring her to KL, yet he did.

And when did I say going to KL is entirely his choice? Stop putting words into my mouth I never spoke! But about it tyrion enjoyed being Hand.

Yes, he is responsible for those deaths. But you have to keep in mind what drove him to do that.

Again people are responsible for their actions.

Killing the singer was done completely in control of himself.

Wow you actually accept that he is responsble for a crime.

Shae's murder and the slave's rape, however, while still appalling and wrong, were crimes committed after a complete emotional breakdown and during a complete fall into depression. That makes a difference. A huge difference.

It makes a difference, but not to the victims. And tyrion is responsible for these too. He is the one who killed Shae and he is the one who raped the girl.

We don't know the past of most of the characters you mentioned. If they had a childhood as full of trauma and abuse as Tyrion, I'd more than willing to extend sympathy and comprehension to them.

Ramsay definietly had some. Roose sent Reek to him as a servant and if I remember correctly Reek was already messed up. Roose even thinks wether it was Reek who messed up Ramsay or Ramsay who messed up Reek even more.

Cersei was raped by Robert and abused in their marriage.

Or which was one among Gregor men who was abused by Greagor?

Sandor had his face burnt down by his own brother.

Viserys was compeletly ridiculed, his family murdered.

Mad King Aerys was held as prisoner and tortured for days before Barristan saved him.

And do you think people sart doing morally wrong actions out of the blue? I am pretty sure that none of those had childhoods with rainbows and unicorn.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Rape is rape, imo.

And before he rapes her, he thinks, "Perhaps she was captured by some slaver as a child." To me it seems like he grasped the situation well enough. Not like it mattered either way to his victim. Sorry, I did not mean for this post to turn into a discussion on rape, but I felt I should respond.

Yes, it was rape and Tyrion was wrong.

I think the poster was just trying to look into Tyrion's motivations -- which is the point of discussing his character -, not dismiss that fact that he raped someone.

I think that in our attempts to remain politically correct by real-world standards and not step on anyone's toes, we draw more attention to the morally corrupt aspects of the discussion, and then it unintentionally becomes something ugly and offensive due to good intentions.

[pamparius]

Sorry?

[Winter's Knight]

And we fall over this cliff of a tangent,never to return.

Jesus Christ,Just as I ask for clarification on victim-blaming.

*looks to the sky* Why Father?

These troubles are sent to try us ser. I'll get the billy goats.

[The Great Walrus]

Oh gods, i admit i still love Tyrion. (Sorry WK, i guess this makes me a misogynistic pig...)

[Kittykatknits]

Oh gods, i admit i still love Tyrion. (Sorry WK, i guess this makes me a misogynistic pig...)

Nah , I think you can enjoy or love a character without agreeing with everything he/she does. I love Jaime even though a lot of his actions (and not just throwing Bran out of a window) trouble me.

[Theda Baratheon]

It's also an awfully nice change to have so many fantastic female characters in a popular fantasy series, so excuse us for being a tad excited by that. Anyway, patriarchy isn't necessarily just a talk about women as patriarchy has an effect on men as well, it's more an interesting discussion on society.

[The Great Walrus]

Nah , I think you can enjoy or love a character without agreeing with everything he/she does. I love Jaime even though a lot of his actions (and not just throwing Bran out of a window) trouble me.

Well, its a diffrent kind of love in this case. Its like how you love an alcoholic family member or friend, you still love them for who they are, but you know how much wrong they've done to themselves and others...

[Éadaoin]

I see you've changed your picture, and i have to say, you look even prettier then in the last one...

Lol Walrus. You always flirt with everyone.

Oh gods, i admit i still love Tyrion. (Sorry WK, i guess this makes me a misogynistic pig...)

I enjoy some rather reprehensible villains, actually. I loathe the things that they do, I just think they make for good reading. Like I've said, I think Tyrion is a great character, but I don't like him as a person, if that makes any sense.

[Theda Baratheon]

Lol Walrus. You always flirt with everyone.

I enjoy some rather reprehensible villains, actually. I loathe the things that they do, I just think they make for good reading. Like I've said, I think Tyrion is a great character, but I don't like him as a person, if that makes any sense.

I'm exactly the same way with Cersei; I really don't like her as a person, but I LOVE her as a character.

[Castel]

I think that Cersei got a much shorter stick than Robert.

[Éadaoin]

I think that Cersei got a much shorter stick than Robert.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. Although it definitely doesn't excuse her actions, I agree.

[The Black Prince]

For me, Tyrion follows a similar pattern as Dany. Meaning, he starts the series off in an extremely sympathetic light, only to "suddenly" turn dark at the end of the third book and then in the fifth. But if you go back, having the benefit of hindsight, you see that Tyrion wasn't actually as good-hearted or sympathetic as you remember. You begin to see warning signs of iffy behavior ahead (like self-pity, disrespect for women and ruthlessness in general). He was never a "good" person. It's just that he was a less-shitty person surrounded by shittier people, like Cersei, and because Cersei's opinion of him is faulty and unfair, we tend to overcompensate and perhaps think, "Well anyone whom Cersei dislikes must be OK, right?" And Catelyn accused him of something he didn't do, poor guy, right? We're almost tricked, in a way — we write off people's uninformed or ungrounded criticism of Tyrion, to the point that we start to disregard any criticism. And I think that's where the idea that Tyrion is a true "good guy" comes from, until ADWD and you can't really ignore the darkness in there anymore.

The reason Tyrion "lost me" is this: He's basically let all of his detractors, including the sister he despises, win. He's becoming the monster he was always accused of being, and he's proving them right.

That's exactly how I felt. I think it's appropriate for him to be in Essos at this moment. I wonder how the atmosphere of present Westeros might have turned him into.

[Castel]

Yeah, I'd agree with this. Although it definitely doesn't excuse her actions, I agree.

I'd even go further and say that Robert created the miserable situation for both of them.Cersei was in love with her brother but Robert gave her every reason to hate him, who knows what would have happened otherwise? Either way, it would have been on Cersei's head not his, but he beat her to the punch.

[mcb]

We don't exactly know what was offered to her do we? It might've been talk or else something bad happens to you. Wouldn't put it passed sweet Cercei to pressure her like that.

No argument here. I never assumed that Tywin Lannister's daughter politely asked Shae to do this. She certainly made an offer Shae couldn't refuse. However, including that particular phrase into the testimony was one huge "fuck off and die" personally from Shae to Tyrion. As if she didn't perjure herself reluctantly and only because of duress, but willingly. Cersei certainly didn't invent it on her own, it didn't affect the outcome of the trial in any significant way. It was personal and it was designed to hurt.

If we have to compare Shae to Bronn, we need to invent a hypothetical scenario different to what actually happened in the books. One where Tyrion to his surprise found himself at the wrong end of Bronn's sword (and somehow survived). If that happened, I'm certain Tyrion would be just as resentful.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

For the record, what Tywin tells Tyrion about his efforts to find Tyrion a wife:

Sansa Stark, he [Tyrion] mused. Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet.

"You asked me to reward you for your efforts in the battle," Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. "This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have." He drummed his fingers impatiently on the table. "I once hoped to marry your brother to Lysa Tully, but Aerys named Jaime to his Kingsguard before the arrangements were complete. When I suggested to Lord Hoster that Lysa might be wed to you instead, he replied that he wanted a whole man for his daughter."

So he wed her to [on Arryn, who was old enough to be her grandfather. Tyrion was more inclined to be thankful than angry, considering what Lysa Arryn had become.

"When I offered you to Dome I was told that the suggestion was an insult," Lord Tywin continued. "In later years I had similar answers from Yohn Royce and Leyton Hightower. I finally stooped so low as to suggest you might take the Florent girl Robert deflowered in his brother's wedding bed, but her father preferred to give her to one of his own household knights.

"if you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who'd gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys . . . "

Tyrion gave a shudder of dismay. "I'd sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats."

"Then open your eyes. The Stark girl is young, nubile, tractable, of the highest birth, and still a maid. She is not uncomely. Why would you hesitate? "

So Tywin didn't only look for Tyrion's bride among the Great Houses, although clearly he did not look as low as the Freys, weak lol. Interesting bit about the Florent girl, I didn't remember that, but even though deflowered she was a member of an important family and had been, briefly, the mistress of a King. If her father did indeed marry her to one of his household knights (I could probably find this in the appendix but I'm too lazy to look) then that would have been a "fuck no" to Tyrion, indeed.

ETA: note that when Tywin offered Tyrion to Hoster Tully in place of Jaime Tyrion was the heir apparent of Casterly Rock because Jaime had joined the Kingsguard.

[summer_stark]

<snip>

I can see an argument for the fact that the smallfolk calls his him the demon monkey, but there's deeper issues going on with that that speak to other factors. For instance, Tywin sent Tyrion in his stead as acting Hand during a time he knew the city would be turning against the authorities (KL was a mess and starving). Tywin sent Tyrion as a patsy, as he knew he was capable of setting the city to rights, but would also be a sacrificial lamb given that conditions were likely to worsen before they improved. <snip>

"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep."

I don't see Tywin's sending Tyrion to KL as some way to make him the family scapegoat. I see it as frankly an honor--and a way to build up what he thinks is probably now his only son. He also needs Kevan in battle, so Tyrion is the logical choice. I think Tywins immediate thought it reigning in Joff and Cersei, and that he thinks Tyrion is equal to the task is a positive thing. But how does Tyrion think about it? Oh, he's just given up on Jaime otherwise he'd never send me. Really Tyrion? You think he'd send Jaime to be Hand??

[Darryk]

To clarify what this means, I don't deny that Tyrion has suffered for reasons other than his own doing at times (as everyone has), but every victim has a choice: rise above the injustices and be a better person or succumb to those abuses and become self-pitying or a victimizer yourself. The Tyrion we see chooses to sink to the level of those around him, and fails to understand that he is as much victimizer as he is a victim in many cases. He has a tendency to drown in self-pity, and resultantly does not realize that his mindset is part of his own problems. Not everyone who suffers becomes self-pitying or a victimizer in their own right;

Everyone has the choice to rise above their past. Not many people do.

Why single out Tyrion? Why say that he's wrong for doing what 90% of humanity do?

Why not single out Arya rather, who grew up with an idyllic childhood but still slits people's throats pretty much any chance she gets? Or Cersei, who came from the same background as Tyrion and got treated well by everyone except Robert, but is a bitter, cold-hearted villain who allows her monster of a son and later Qyburn to torture people?

Seriously, out of all the people who deserve singling out for not just "getting over" years of rejection and neglect, Tyrion seems like one of the least deserving.

He regularly risks his life to save people who've given him no reason to, he protects Sansa from Joffrey's abuse, he leads the men at Kings Landing when their king abandons them. That's far more then Cersei, Arya or most other characters in this series have done.

Tyrion could have refused so that Tywin or Kevan would be forced into taking the position, and let them get their own hands dirty. The smallfolk called him a demon monkey, but the reason they hated him is because they placed the worsened conditions of KL on his arrival (the only variable in the government before and after), which is exactly what Tywin expected in sending Tyrion to do his work, and had Tyrion not been so tempted, he'd likely have seen through his father's designs here.

He's wrong for trying to take an opportunity to prove himself? He should just abandon House Lannister? Abandon his brother who's the only one who's ever shown him any respect, and abandon his House to destruction?

You demand very high moral standards of him, I have to say. Tyrion should be a man who can completely rise above his past and rise above the cultural and social conventions of the feudal middle ages? If he doesn't he's morally repugnant?

His family's "wrongness"? It's the wrongness of Joffrey and his overprotective mother that caused this mess, and Tyrion's been the only one trying to slap some sense into him all along.

Regarding Tyrion objectively being a victim of abuse during the time frame of the novels, some textual evidence for that I think would be great.

Apart from the "twisted monkey demon" comment, when, during the first three novels at least (Tyrion being a slave is obvious that it's an abusive situation) does Tyrion really suffer that much abuse to make it stand out head and shoulders above other characters like say for example, Sansa (who got abused, beaten and stripped in front of the whole court,had to see her father die and then marry into the family which caused her family's demise) or Arya Stark (who had to go through an absolutely harrowing journey in the Riverlands with rapes, violence and death everywhere and very real risk to her own life)?

Why does it have to be during the time-frame of the novels?

It's pretty clear Tyrion suffered rejection and neglect from his father throughout his life, I imagine something like that would cut someone deep. As opposed to Arya and Sansa who had absolute love and devotion from their parents and were treated like little princesses.

But if it didn't happen during the time-frame of the novels it doesn't matter? And if it did he should just rise above it anyway?

No more then what say Jon went through. In fact Jon had his own "Tyrion" moment when Cat told him it should've been him with a broken back. Yet I don't see Jon behaving particulairly misogynist or lashing out to everyone around him. Yes he was emo and a bore at the start of GoT but Jon's also half Tyrion's age and still a teenager when the story starts. From the beginning of GoT onwards he's becoming quite the opposite of Tyrion in fact, which is ironic considering Tyrion was the one giving Jon advise on how to deal with being an outcast in the first place.

Jon received love and respect from everyone except Cat.

Jon is also a pretty boy who has no trouble getting attention from the ladies, as opposed to Tyrion who knows no one will touch him if he doesn't pay them, and his father won't let him do that either (but has no problem getting a whore for himself in Shae, who happens to be the girl Tyrion thought he was in love with)

Actually yes, it's fairly clear from analysing the POV structure and how the characters are presented that Tyrion is introduced with a lot of techniques to make us readers sympathise with him. It's a trick that can be used by the author to sway our sympathies.

The gist I'm getting is if something bad happens to Sansa, Arya etc then it's tragic, if something bad happens to Tyrion it's because we're being manipulated to feel sorry for him.