Tyrion: Oh, What To Think

[Castel]

This strawman has also been addressed repeatedly - No one is saying that the abuse he has suffered excuses him. We are bringing it up as a counterpoint to the people who say that he is simply a monster, to provide the necessary circumstances for a proper analysis.

Yes, can we fucking kill this? What is it with this argument? It seems to me that it only applies when you're attacking a character you don't like. When people are reading Arya and Cersei's actions they don't feel the need to preface every statement with a reminder that they are responsible for their actions. They're quite comfortable in trusting that people understand that empathy=/= acceptance, yet it doesn't go the other way. This particular complaint comes up in every thread involving crime and justice as well and it's just...so...tedious..

“Lady Tysha.” His mouth twisted. “Of House Silverfist. Their arms have one gold coin and a hundred silver, upon a bloody sheet. Ours was a very short marriage . . . as befits a very short man, I suppose.”

So she was bloody. I have to conclude that his guilt had to do with him having sex with a bleeding, thirteen year old girl, as well as y'know, being able to have sex with her at all. At that point,even if he believed that she was there for money he had to have seen the harm by that point.

“Well, a son takes after his father. Joff would have killed me as well, once he came into his power. For the crime of being short and ugly, of which I am so conspicuously guilty.”

I only have Storm on ebook here but I noticed this. Butterbumps has a point here, Joff doesn't only hate you because you're small and ugly Tyrion, Joffrey hated you because you kept fucking smacking him.

[Lyanna Stark]

Regarding Tyrion objectively being a victim of abuse during the time frame of the novels, some textual evidence for that I think would be great.

Apart from the "twisted monkey demon" comment, when, during the first three novels at least (Tyrion being a slave is obvious that it's an abusive situation) does Tyrion really suffer that much abuse to make it stand out head and shoulders above other characters like say for example, Sansa (who got abused, beaten and stripped in front of the whole court,had to see her father die and then marry into the family which caused her family's demise) or Arya Stark (who had to go through an absolutely harrowing journey in the Riverlands with rapes, violence and death everywhere and very real risk to her own life)?

This strawman has also been addressed repeatedly - No one is saying that the abuse he has suffered excuses him. We are bringing it up as a counterpoint to the people who say that he is simply a monster, to provide the necessary circumstances for a proper analysis.

Compare: If you told me the tale of a ten year old girl who stabbed a man to death simply for abandoning a military organization, and felt no remorse, I would think her a psychopath. Knowing her tale as I do, I hold a different opinion.

But nobody has said he is "simply a monster". That is a straw man. Just like Arya you bring up here is a straw man. Nobody has argued that Arya should be totally excused.

Seriously, I suggest a thorough read through of the "Tyrion reread" threads. They are very thorough.

[SeanF]

Regarding Tyrion objectively being a victim of abuse during the time frame of the novels, some textual evidence for that I think would be great.

Apart from the "twisted monkey demon" comment, when, during the first three novels at least (Tyrion being a slave is obvious that it's an abusive situation) does Tyrion really suffer that much abuse to make it stand out head and shoulders above other characters like say for example, Sansa (who got abused, beaten and stripped in front of the whole court,had to see her father die and then marry into the family which caused her family's demise) or Arya Stark (who had to go through an absolutely harrowing journey in the Riverlands with rapes, violence and death everywhere and very real risk to her own life)?

Being generally referred to as "the Imp" must be a hard thing to live down. He's kidnapped by Catelyn, and then carried off to almost certain death. He gets thrown into a sky cell to freeze and starve, and only escapes by the skin of his teeth. He's badly injured at the Battle of Blackwater, and then gets torn off a strip by his father. Then he's unjustly condemned for Joffrey's murder, and expects to be executed.

Others may have it worse, but Tyrion's had his share of injustices.

[Castel]

Being generally referred to as "the Imp" must be a hard thing to live down. He's kidnapped by Catelyn, and then carried off to almost certain death. He gets thrown into a sky cell to freeze and starve, and only escapes by the skin of his teeth. He's badly injured at the Battle of Blackwater, and then gets torn off a strip by his father. Then he's unjustly condemned for Joffrey's murder, and expects to be executed.

Others may have it worse, but Tyrion's had his share of injustices.

Oh, and his father admitted to his face that he was trying to get his men-and by extension him- killed in battle. Nothing can illustrate disdain better than using your son as a cheap feint in war imo.

I don't know if I would call it abuse,like at Blackwater most men are called on to fight, but it certainly made the relationship clear.

I'm also not sure why this matters. If he comes in third in the Oppression Olympics does it mean that he sucks more because the other two people didn't succumb and become bad people? That would be weird.

[Scipio Africanus]

Being generally referred to as "the Imp" must be a hard thing to live down.

No more then what say Jon went through. In fact Jon had his own "Tyrion" moment when Cat told him it should've been him with a broken back. Yet I don't see Jon behaving particulairly misogynist or lashing out to everyone around him. Yes he was emo and a bore at the start of GoT but Jon's also half Tyrion's age and still a teenager when the story starts. From the beginning of GoT onwards he's becoming quite the opposite of Tyrion in fact, which is ironic considering Tyrion was the one giving Jon advise on how to deal with being an outcast in the first place.

He's kidnapped by Catelyn, and then carried off to almost certain death. He gets thrown into a sky cell to freeze and starve, and only escapes by the skin of his teeth. He's badly injured at the Battle of Blackwater, and then gets torn off a strip by his father. Then he's unjustly condemned for Joffrey's murder, and expects to be executed.

Others may have it worse, but Tyrion's had his share of injustices.

Lets look at Tyrion's wives for a moment.

Sansa had to witness her own father's head chopped off, then got beaten on a regular basis, lived under certain threats of being killed and/or raped by Joff, had to learn from her jailors that her family was being killed off one by one, was openly used by the Tyrells and to add injury to insult was married off to one of her jailors.

I don't think we need to go look into what happened to Tysha further, has already been described here.

Now lets look at Tyrion. He knows his mother died giving birth to him. Apparently, when he was born, it was big news that a twisted monkey demon was born at Casterly Rock, however he source of that comes from mr. Red Viper, a known anti-Lannister figure. Cercei (also told by the Red Viper) twisted his manhood and was apparently mean to him as a baby.

Now from what he remembers. His father was also cold to him, likely because Tywin claimed Tyrion killed his wife, and Cercei, being a Tywin wannabe, followed his lead. Jamie however was always kind to him. I don't get the impression uncles Ty or Gerry had any problems with him, in fact Tyrion was encouraged by Gerion to take up gymnastics. I don't get the impression auntie Genna had problems with Tyrion either, in fact she said herself to Tywin's face that Tyrion looked more like him than any of his other children.

We know he was given an education. Considering he has a customized set of plate armour (for example) I doubt he ever was poor. At a certain age he wished to travel but this was denied by Tywin, and instead he was made chief sewer system of Casterly Rock. Wasn't a glamorous job true, but I wouldn't consider it abusive.

Apart from the Tysha incident, I really don't see how Tyrion was horribly abused before the ASOFAI timeline of events. Yes, there would've been some verbal abuse coming from Cercei and Tywin would've given Tyrion the cold shoulder. Yes people would stare at him as he waddled along, but they probably wouldn't have dared to say much. Besides, this is the same Tyrion who told Jon that he should use his outcast status as his armour and not let it get to him, right? Apart from Cercei, none of his immediate family members are particulairly abusive from what I can tell, and I think Tywin just ignored him as much as possible.

In short compared to his wives I doubt he received the same amount of abuse by a long shot.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

I think what undermines a defense of Shae's actions at Tyrion's trial is that Cersei's POV in AFFC reveals she perjured herself to secure a good marriage. It wasn't just about surviving for her.

I think it was pretty cold what Tyrion did, but I see teh otherside too. When she lied in court she didn't really have to add the personal detail, especially the giant of Lannister line which completed Tyrion's public humiliation. She just didn't testify against him , she humiliated him in front of his peers.

[Ser_Patreck]

Then what is he? A child? If he is not a fully capable adult, does that mean he is mentally ill? I disagree. I think Tyrion is a fully capable adult, he is able to make choices on his own.

There is a story. It is about a father who is drunk and abuses his two sons. Later the sons grow up, a man who know them ask one of them who abuses his children and drunk as well, why does he live like that? The son answers, whit a father like that what choice did I have but to be like him? The man meets the other son, he grow up to be a decent man, doesn't drink and is kind to his children. The man ask him why did he turn out like that? He answer with a father like that I had no choice but to became the opposite to him.

All of us has a choice, maybe we don't even realise when we are presented with them but it is there. If there is no choice both son would have taken the same path, but they didn't.

EDIT: tyrion's choice is that he wants tywin's acceptance, and he wants to be like him. That is why he is more and more like him. See Genna for example. She told Jaime TYrion is Tywin's true son.

Yes, that's what Tyrion is. Emotionally, he's barely more than a child. he isn't healthy, he isn't mature. his development is off. For reasons completely out of his control.

Your parable is failed. It doesn't tell us about the siblings different circumstances. One of them might have found a loving partner, while the other didn't. One of them might have found friends, religion, a teacher that looked deeply into his/hers students lives and helped him... As I said, you can't simply shrug off abuse. You can't simple choose to be better and that's it. It's an emotional trap.

And Tyrion doesn't choose to need Tywin's approval. That's what you don't understand, or chooses not to understand, He doesn't have a choice, he is in a emotionally abusive relationship, and he has become dependent on his abuser approval. You're victim blaming.

I'm not saying that, and the post you just quoted explicitly said otherwise, as did all my posts that you keep disagreeing with for some reason. What I've repeatedly argued is that his abuses do not remove his culpability in doing immoral things, which is apparently what you also believe. I even repeatedly stated how reasonable and sympathetic Tyrion always looks. I've made distinctions between his being the victim of past abuses versus the conscious role he has played in things that have backfired on him.

Tyrion doesn't look sympathetic. That's what you do, you frame it as our sympathy for him is a trick, and a "deeper analysis" will show us he's, in truth, a villain. That's wrong. His past abuses actively drive his conscious decisions, and that's what you're denying.

I think in my very first post here I stated that Tyrion is largely a prisoner of his own doing. To clarify what this means, I don't deny that Tyrion has suffered for reasons other than his own doing at times (as everyone has), but every victim has a choice: rise above the injustices and be a better person or succumb to those abuses and become self-pitying or a victimizer yourself. The Tyrion we see chooses to sink to the level of those around him, and fails to understand that he is as much victimizer as he is a victim in many cases. He has a tendency to drown in self-pity, and resultantly does not realize that his mindset is part of his own problems. Not everyone who suffers becomes self-pitying or a victimizer in their own right; Tyrion's past explains where he's coming from and provides a framework for sympathizing with him, but it's important to realize that he did not have to turn out with the attitude he has. I sympathize with his struggle, I really do, but I don't believe that Tyrion's behaviors are fundamentally dictated by his past-- (by "fundamentally dictated," I mean that it would be impossible for him to have turned out any other way.)

I am not sure that's fully accurate; what on-screen abuses do we see from other perspectives that render him a victim of abuse and neglect that he has played no part of? I can see an argument for the fact that the smallfolk calls his him the demon monkey, but there's deeper issues going on with that that speak to other factors. For instance, Tywin sent Tyrion in his stead as acting Hand during a time he knew the city would be turning against the authorities (KL was a mess and starving). Tywin sent Tyrion as a patsy, as he knew he was capable of setting the city to rights, but would also be a sacrificial lamb given that conditions were likely to worsen before they improved. Tyrion accepted the position despite knowing his family's wrongness, and knowing that they planned to destroy Houses that were actually in the right. Tyrion was sent as damage control for atrocities committed at his family's hand. Tyrion could have refused so that Tywin or Kevan would be forced into taking the position, and let them get their own hands dirty. The smallfolk called him a demon monkey, but the reason they hated him is because they placed the worsened conditions of KL on his arrival (the only variable in the government before and after), which is exactly what Tywin expected in sending Tyrion to do his work, and had Tyrion not been so tempted, he'd likely have seen through his father's designs here.

See? You're doing it again, right here.

Tyrion doesn't choose to go to King's Landing. Tywin Lannister is telling him to go. Tywin Lannister, great and terrible father figure. Tywin Lannister, who burned into Tyrion's 13 year old mind he is not a man to be crossed. Tywin Lannister, who knows how desperatly Tyrion craves his approval and acceptance. Tywin is playing on all these here, all of Tyrion's issues and traumas. It's not a choice.

[Ser_Patreck]

Regarding Tyrion objectively being a victim of abuse during the time frame of the novels, some textual evidence for that I think would be great.

Apart from the "twisted monkey demon" comment, when, during the first three novels at least (Tyrion being a slave is obvious that it's an abusive situation) does Tyrion really suffer that much abuse to make it stand out head and shoulders above other characters like say for example, Sansa (who got abused, beaten and stripped in front of the whole court,had to see her father die and then marry into the family which caused her family's demise) or Arya Stark (who had to go through an absolutely harrowing journey in the Riverlands with rapes, violence and death everywhere and very real risk to her own life)?

Why do the abuse have to be in the timeframe of the novels?

You know that Tyrion can't exactly go and say "You know, these happened before aSoIaF proper started, so I can jsut shrug them off and not be affected by them. Yeah, that's what I'm going to do." don't you? What difference does it make if the abuse is on-screen or not? It'll affect him just the same.

No more then what say Jon went through. In fact Jon had his own "Tyrion" moment when Cat told him it should've been him with a broken back. Yet I don't see Jon behaving particulairly misogynist or lashing out to everyone around him. Yes he was emo and a bore at the start of GoT but Jon's also half Tyrion's age and still a teenager when the story starts. From the beginning of GoT onwards he's becoming quite the opposite of Tyrion in fact, which is ironic considering Tyrion was the one giving Jon advise on how to deal with being an outcast in the first place.

God Almighty...

Jon had a loving father. Jon had loving siblings. Jon was trained at arms. Jon had his successes and efforts recognized and approved. Jon wasn't considered an abomination by 99% of the people he met. Jon didn't knew for a fact he was undesirable.

Jon. Wasn't. Raped. By. His. Own. Father.

You're kidding me, aren't you?

[Scipio Africanus]

Jon. Wasn't. Raped. By. His. Own. Father.

Neither was Tyrion.

[Ser_Patreck]

Neither was Tyrion.

What do you call coerced sex? "Making love"?

[Castel]

Jon had a loving father. Jon had loving siblings. Jon was trained at arms. Jon had his successes and efforts recognized and approved. Jon wasn't considered an abomination by 99% of the people he met. Jon didn't knew for a fact he was undesirable.

More importantly, Jon doesn't believe that people are right about him. He believes that he can have honor even though he's a bastard (edit: and this is reinforced by Ned and his teachers who treated him much the same as the legal family), Tyrion thinks that he's exactly the gruesome dwarf everyone thinks he is and that no one will love him for him. And he's probably right, especially if he keeps acting the way he does and making people dislike him or not trying at all.

Trying to defeat the imaginary hypothesis "Suffering justifies or always causes bad behavior" is all well and good, but it's not only an oversimplification, it's attacking a point that no one made.

[They see me R'hollin]

Dude, I am in the EXACT same frame of mind as you:

In ADWD, Tyrion’s chapters open with him being incredibly post-traumatic over what he did to Shae and his father, and the knowledge of Tysha, and everything (seriously, he’s like a walking example of PTSD), and it hurt. It hurt bad. But then he gets to Illyrio’s and starts treating all the women like shit. Thinking of them that way too

“He wondered what they would do if he took them by the hand and dragged them to his bedchamber.”

He’s thinking of raping two servants here, cooks, not bedslaves or anything, just because they’re women, and goes on to think that because they’re fat he could die from their weight and it’s just so godawful.

And it just gets worse. His thoughts of Lemore — what he does to the whore in Selhorys — when he speaks of raping Cersei — that’s when I realized Tyrion had turned his self-hatred external, onto women. Before, he had just had general Westeros cultural misogyny, and a general virgin-whore complex (that had mostly been expressed by “only the kind of women I pay to sleep with me would ever sleep with me”). But in ADWD there’s hardly any women he looks at and doesn’t think of as just a piece of meat, and it’s just so hard to read, and feel, when I used to love him so much.

Before, on my first read, I was like, dammit, Tyrion, what the hell do you think you’re doing, falling in love with a prostitute, how could you be so blind? Now, I could empathize so much more with Shae and the trapped position she found herself in… And when Jaime spoke of Tysha, I could see, there, there’s the moment where Tyrion’s personality breaks, there and with his strangling of Shae for her “betrayal”, for daring to save her own skin (because you know if she hadn’t testified against him, spoken the lies that were fed to her, she would be dead), for daring to sleep with his father…

And, yes, those murders ruined him. It’s his father he’s most actively post-traumatic about (“the thrum of the crossbow”, it’s repeated almost as often as “where do whores go”), but it’s with Shae that his thoughts about women become explicit, that almost all women are whores, and all his women will betray him, and they’re not people, they just exist to be fucked and die.

So, yeah, when people say Tyrion shouldn’t be the romantic partner of any female character? It’s not that he doesn’t deserve it, almost everyone deserves love. It’s that people are actively afraid of what he’d do to them, how he’d react. Because, let’s take for example Sansa, the virgin in his previous mental complex — she’s betrayed him now too. She’s not safe any more. And Penny, oh my god, sweet innocent Penny — you think she’s his redemption? Oh no. I am absolutely certain she's going to be his doom.

Tyrion’s still a hero in his own head. But if you look at him now, really look at him, his actions, his beliefs — he has become the monster the people believed he was. He’s not going to be the hero of the books — though he may be a head of the dragon, he may be a dragon-rider, I don’t doubt that — he’s the villain. He might — might — pull off a redemption arc, it’s possible, there’s two books to go, but I’m much more certain he’ll descend into madness first. And I’m incredibly sure, he is not getting a happy ending, not with Tysha or Sansa or Penny or Dany or anyone.

[Silverin]

Yes, that's what Tyrion is. Emotionally, he's barely more than a child. he isn't healthy, he isn't mature. his development is off. For reasons completely out of his control.

Your parable is failed. It doesn't tell us about the siblings different circumstances. One of them might have found a loving partner, while the other didn't. One of them might have found friends, religion, a teacher that looked deeply into his/hers students lives and helped him... As I said, you can't simply shrug off abuse. You can't simple choose to be better and that's it. It's an emotional trap.

And Tyrion doesn't choose to need Tywin's approval. That's what you don't understand, or chooses not to understand, He doesn't have a choice, he is in a emotionally abusive relationship, and he has become dependent on his abuser approval. You're victim blaming.

What? Do you even know what victim blaming is? Victim blaming is when you blame the girl who got raped instead of the guy who raped her.

Victim blaming is when you blame a crime on a victim rather than the one who commited it.

I don't blame tyrion for the abuse he suffered. If I would say he is the fault for Cersei's action when she molested him, that would be victim blaming.

However he is responsible for the abuse he commits against others. He is responsible for the death of the singer, for the death of Shae, raping the slave girl etc etc....

That is not victim blaming, That is saying Tyrion is responsible for his own actions.

I don't think our fate is destined, and I don't think we don't have a choice to choose that morally where do we go. If that is true, no one is ever responsible for the crimes one commits. Neither Ramsay, neither Viserys, neither Cersei, neither is George Clegane, Darkstar, Jaime, Janos Slynt, Sandor, Littlefinger, Victarion, Euron.

No one at all. Using that argument in defense of tyrion requires to use that for anyone, and then we get the no one ever had a choice for anything theory.

EDIT: I actually don't blame Tyrion for what happened with Tysha either since he was still a child, if that what you mean victim blaming (then you responded the wrong poster).

I see both as victims there, though Tysha definietly suffered more, honestly I don't even think she could have survive that realistically speaking.

[Lyanna Stark]

Tyrion doesn't look sympathetic. That's what you do, you frame it as our sympathy for him is a trick, and a "deeper analysis" will show us he's, in truth, a villain. That's wrong. His past abuses actively drive his conscious decisions, and that's what you're denying.

Actually yes, it's fairly clear from analysing the POV structure and how the characters are presented that Tyrion is introduced with a lot of techniques to make us readers sympathise with him. It's a trick that can be used by the author to sway our sympathies.

I also don't think Butterbumps! or anyone else has denied that his past drive his present decisions, what has been pointed out is that this doesn't make any of it an excuse. Not does it make him a child, or absolve him of responsibility.

Jon. Wasn't. Raped. By. His. Own. Father.

Neither was Tyrion, and please stop suggesting that he was as there are very likely real life rape victims reading this thread, and the victim blaming is a potential trigger. Making light of a woman being gang raped by blame shifting is massively uncool and potentially very, very upsetting. It's also a reason to have posts deleted or the thread locked, so please can we continue this discussion without lowering ourselves to that sort of thing.

[Éadaoin]

And I’m incredibly sure, he is not getting a happy ending, not with Tysha or Sansa or Penny or Dany or anyone.

I don't think a happy ending is likely for Tyrion with either Sansa or Tysha in particular. Tysha because I think they would both be incredibly damaged by what happened between them, even if Tyrion found her again.

I think with the way Tyrion treats women it would be hard for him to have a truly happy ending with anyone.

[Winter's Knight]

I just remembered something about Shae: in ACoK Tyrion himself warns her about Tywin's treatment of his courteseans.

“When I was thirteen, I wed a crofter’s daughter. Or so I thought her. I was blind with love for her, and thought she felt the same for me, but my father rubbed my face in the truth. My bride was a whore Jaime had hired to give me my first taste of manhood.” And I believed all of it, fool that I was. “To drive the lesson home, Lord Tywin gave my wife to a barracks of his guardsmen to use as they pleased, and commanded me to watch.”

Small wonder she didn't put up a fight when told to testify.

[Castel]

I don't think a happy ending is likely for Tyrion with either Sansa or Tysha in particular. Tysha because I think they would both be incredibly damaged by what happened between them, even if Tyrion found her again.

I think with the way Tyrion treats women it would be hard for him to have a truly happy ending with anyone.

The way Martin treats characters it would be hard for anyone to have a truly happy ending with anyone :)

Neither was Tyrion, and please stop suggesting that he was as there are probably real life rape victims reading this thread, and the victim blaming is a potential trigger.Making light of a woman being gang raped by blame shifting is massively uncool and potentially very, very upsetting

Where was Tysha blamed for her rape? This is a pretty serious accusation. As I understand it his point is that Tywin forced Tyrion to have sex with Tysha, how does this change or minimize Tysha's rape? Whether or not Tyrion was forced or thought that she was raped doesn't change the fact that she was raped or make it less horrific.

[Ser_Patreck]

What? Do you even know what victim blaming is? Victim blaming is when you blame the girl who got raped instead of the guy who raped him.

Victim blaming is when you blame a crime on a victim rather than the one who commited it.

I don't blame tyrion for the abuse he suffered. If I would say he is the fault for Cersei's action when she molested him, that would be victim blaming.

However he is responsible to the abuse he commits against others. He is responsible for the death of the singer, for the death of Shae, raping the slave girl etc etc....

That is not victim blaming, That is saying Tyrion is responsible for his own actions.

I don't think our fate is destined, and I don't think we don't have a choice to choose that morally where do we go. If that is true, no one is ever responsible for the crimes one commits. Neither Ramsay, neither Viserys, neither Cersei, neither is George Clegane, Darkstar, Jaime, Janos Slynt, Sandor, Littlefinger, Victarion, Euron.

No one at all. Using that argument in defense of tyrion requires to use that for anyone, and then we get the no one ever had a choice for anything theory.

Victim blaming is when you blame the victim and not the perpetrator. It's not limited to rape. Tywin had Tyrion under his thumb and knew it. Tywin sent Tyrion to King's Landing. You call this Tyrion's choice completely writing off the sheer power Tywin exercised over Tyrion.

Yes, he is responsible for those deaths. But you have to keep in mind what drove him to do that. Killing the singer was done completely in control of himself. Shae's murder and the slave's rape, however, while still appalling and wrong, were crimes committed after a complete emotional breakdown and during a complete fall into depression. That makes a difference. A huge difference.

We don't know the past of most of the characters you mentioned. If they had a childhood as full of trauma and abuse as Tyrion, I'd more than willing to extend sympathy and comprehension to them.

Actually yes, it's fairly clear from analysing the POV structure and how the characters are presented that Tyrion is introduced with a lot of techniques to make us readers sympathise with him. It's a trick that can be used by the author to sway our sympathies.

So, objectively, it's impossible to sympathize with Tyrion? It's all a trick?

Neither was Tyrion, and please stop suggesting that he was as there are very likely real life rape victims reading this thread, and the victim blaming is a potential trigger. Making light of a woman being gang raped by blame shifting is massively uncool and potentially very, very upsetting. It's also a reason to have posts deleted or the thread locked, so please can we continue this discussion without lowering ourselves to that sort of thing.

A full grown man forces a 13 year old child to have sex against his will. How is this not rape? Please, enlighten me? How is coercing a child into sex not rape?

And please, quite with the stupid strawman. I never mentioned Tysha. I never made light of her rape, I never said it was not rape, and I take issue with anyone implying I ever did. The one denying coerced sex is rape here is you. So please, drop the cheap rhetoric.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Yes, can we fucking kill this? What is it with this argument? It seems to me that it only applies when you're attacking a character you don't like. When people are reading Arya and Cersei's actions they don't feel the need to preface every statement with a reminder that they are responsible for their actions. They're quite comfortable in trusting that people understand that empathy=/= acceptance, yet it doesn't go the other way. This particular complaint comes up in every thread involving crime and justice as well and it's just...so...tedious..

:agree:

Neither was Tyrion, and please stop suggesting that he was as there are very likely real life rape victims reading this thread, and the victim blaming is a potential trigger. Making light of a woman being gang raped by blame shifting is massively uncool and potentially very, very upsetting. It's also a reason to have posts deleted or the thread locked, so please can we continue this discussion without lowering ourselves to that sort of thing.

I may not agree with all of Ser Patreck's points, but he is not victim blaming or making light of a gang rape. It is unfair to make that assertion simply because he disagrees with certain aspects of the "Tyrion is morally incomprehensible for participating in the abuse of Tysha" argument.

Yes, Tyrion was wrong -- and no one has denied that, but to ignore the actions and abuses Tyrion endured to get to that point is victim blaming. A victim can be forced to attack another victim. It does not lessen or erase the abuse suffered by either victim.

[Woman of War]

I don't think a happy ending is likely for Tyrion with either Sansa or Tysha in particular. Tysha because I think they would both be incredibly damaged by what happened between them, even if Tyrion found her again.

I think with the way Tyrion treats women it would be hard for him to have a truly happy ending with anyone.

This may be wishful thinking, as in every "shipping" 'post where people clad their personal dream into allegedly logical arguments and overinterpretation: But Martin might give Tyrion that one moment (one night) of true recognition and unconditional love he is craving for - only to kill him off the next day in a glorious heroic and most crazy death.

But then maybe there is a brainy woman for him who knows that the most important sexual organ is between the human ears.... Now I'm being as ridiculous as all those "shippers" :blushing: