Tyrion: Oh, What To Think

[Éadaoin]

I’ve been thinking a lot about Tyrion lately, which I believe attests to how strong of a character he is. I was really rooting for him when I began the books (like so many others, as I’ve read here). Upon browsing through the excellent Tyrion reread threads, I realized that there was a lot I’d missed about his character.

I sympathized with Tyrion quite a bit at first. He had to deal with being the ugly dwarf with two beautiful siblings, the unwanted son who had killed his mother just by being born. What he’ d thought was his first love turned out to be a lie, and he was even made to participate in the rape of his wife. His sister detested him and he was an utter disappointment to his father, despite his keen mind. I felt badly for him, was rooting for him, and was sure he’d emerge in a few books as a hero.

So, I watched as he befriended Jon Snow and made a saddle for Bran, then as he was captured by Catelyn Stark. Tyrion is capable of good. He is also capable of being spiteful, I saw, after he broke Marillion’s fingers because the man had dared to mock him. This didn’t deter me, however. I wasn’t looking too closely, and it took some more time before I realized what Tyrion was capable of.

His murder of Shae was what first made me stop and really think. It was how the murder was framed (“That was the worst thing you could have said, sweetling”, or whatnot) and how he’d done it so easily. I’d been disappointed when he’d hit her, but, perhaps naively, I didn’t think he’d end up killing her. Tyrion also kills his father, and then continues his descent in ADWD. He essentially hits rock bottom. I remember thinking—Is this the same guy who I’d rooted for in AGOT? But he was there all along.

So I suppose I’ve written this post to get the general consensus on Tyrion and his future. While I still think he is a fantastic character, I am not the fan of him, personally, that I once was, and can’t bring myself to defend many of the things he’s done. I’ve discussed him with a few people but would like to hear other viewpoints on him. Do you think it is possible for him to be redeemed, and what do you think GRRM’s plans are for him? (If, indeed, you think he needs redemption at all.) Do you think Tyrion will end up ultimately being a "dark" character, or will he wander towards the light?

[GreyWind BreaksWind]

I don't have time to write out a very thorough response because I am late for a dinner but I wanted to bookmark this page by responding....but very quickly, didn't shae turn against him and said in court a bunch of spiteful things to condemn tyrion, and wasn't she in bed with his father. I personally always hated Shae and knew deep down that she would turn on Tyrion with no hesitation, but I can understand why he'd kill her. All that Tyrion has been through and especially on that forefront you can't blame the man for being a bit irrational. And in my opinion, Shae deserved it. But I will return to discuss more tonight or tomorrow.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Tyrion is pretty interesting character. I think about 99% of the fanbase was on his side to begin with. Hes snarky, sharp, funny, and the underdog. We root for him for a good portion of the series. Even sort of brush aside the lecherous side of him.

I myself, was rooting for both Cat and Tyrion simultaneously when she nabbed him and the whole Eyrie debacle occurred. Blackwater, i admit, i was on Tyrion's side even if it meant the Lannisters winning. Tyrion gets pretty dodgy but i kept thinking "oh well, he'll do something to make up for it." Even though i was down with Tywin finally being out of the picture. (omg you dont even know...) I was all like "was killing Shae even worth it?" That and his acceptance of killing Joff when he didnt. That bothered me.

Then ADWD happened and i just...Yeah...Tyrion, you lost me. In a huge way.

I am very interested in where his character goes in terms of development, however. Will he succumb to being just as bad as his father if not worse? Or will he snap out of it? If the latter happens, GRRM has his work cut out for him. I will not accept something half assed there!

[The Dornishman's Wife]

And in my opinion, Shae deserved it.

We can discuss about whether Tyrion can plead temporary insanity due to special circumstances or something, but Shae most decidedly did not deserve it.

Tyrion rented her body, that does not mean she belongs to him or that has any debt to pay off by remaining stalwartly his. Worse, with Cersei out for blood and paranoid about Tyrion's every shadow, it would have been extremely dangerous for Shae to stay on Tyrion's side during the murder investigation. It would have been similarly dangerous to refuse Tywin (we know how he usually deals with whores), but in any case, and people need to get that into their heads, even if it was her decision to sleep with Tywin, she has all the right in the world to take a new customer after Tyrion.

[Betty Amazing]

Shae didn't really owe Tyrion anything, she was employed by him yes, and he liked to think that she felt for him the same way he felt for her... But essentially she was doing a job, and that was all.

Also, if she really hadn't have wanted to testify against Tyrion at his trial, I can't imagine that would have gone well for her. You don't know if she had been persuaded, threatened or what have you behind the scenes.

[danm_999]

I definitely think it's intentional to portray Tyrion in ADWD as an asshole who has lost the plot and isn't the same character many of us liked in AGoT.

Whereas once he was compassionate and empathic towards social outcasts like Bran and Jon, now he's abusing slaves and raping whores in Selhorys. Whereas once he was more dutiful to his family, even if he didn't get along with all of them, he now boasts about killing his father, and talks about murdering Jaime and raping Cersei. Whereas once he was quite clever and cunning, now he's kind of a drunken wreck who bounces from disaster to disaster. He's still pretty funny at least.

I do think Tyrion will sober up and become less pathetic in TWoW, especially since now he's in a position with the Second Sons to engineer events, but I think the amount of shit he's had to put up with in his life means he won't ever be the same man again, and that won't necessarily mean he'll be very nice. He's got a very long shit list of people in Westeros.

[Harlaw of Harlaw!]

Hmmm, this is very hard to say. Is he going to eventually get his rightful seat of Lord of the Rock? Couldn't say. Also, I think "good or evil" for characters in this series is a little black&white. The only thing I am certain of, is that Tyrion is GRRM's favorite character to write about, so there will definitely be some excitement to his story, which my best guess would be, very climatic.

[danm_999]

We can discuss about whether Tyrion can plead temporary insanity due to special circumstances or something, but Shae most decidedly did not deserve it.

Tyrion rented her body, that does not mean she belongs to him or that has any debt to pay off by remaining stalwartly his. Worse, with Cersei out for blood and paranoid about Tyrion's every shadow, it would have been extremely dangerous for Shae to stay on Tyrion's side during the murder investigation. It would have been similarly dangerous to refuse Tywin (we know how he usually deals with whores), but in any case, and people need to get that into their heads, even if it was her decision to sleep with Tywin, she has all the right in the world to take a new customer after Tyrion.

I think what undermines a defense of Shae's actions at Tyrion's trial is that Cersei's POV in AFFC reveals she perjured herself to secure a good marriage. It wasn't just about surviving for her.

[Little Wing]

I'm just reading some GRRM interviews, and stumbled onto him talking about Tyrion:

I think his wit is appealing. He gets off a lot of good iconoclastic, cynical one-liners, and those are fun to write. He's also a very gray character. All my characters are gray to a greater or lesser extent, but Tyrion is perhaps the deepest shade of gray, with the black and white in him most thoroughly mixed, and I find that very appealing. I've always liked gray characters more than black-and-white characters.

[Ser Grimes]

I think he is and always will be a "dark" character. IMO any good he does henceforth is for his own personal gain or to save his own neck. I don't think hes purely evil either though.

[Éadaoin]

Hmmm, this is very hard to say. Is he going to eventually get his rightful seat of Lord of the Rock? Couldn't say. Also, I think "good or evil" for characters in this series is a little black&white.

I meant whether Tyrion will be a darker shade of grey or a lighter shade of grey at the end of the series. I know he's not going to be black or white.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I think what undermines a defense of Shae's actions at Tyrion's trial is that Cersei's POV in AFFC reveals she perjured herself to secure a good marriage. It wasn't just about surviving for her.

Obviously Cersei has a carrot as well as a stick in her repertoire, though the carrot would not have actually been dealt out: "The queen made it plain that the whore would have nothing of her until she told them where Sansa Stark had gone. “You were her maid. Do you expect me to believe that you knew nothing of her plans?” she had said." Frankly, I only think that this shows how endangered Shae would have been if she had not thoroughly distanced herself from Tyrion. Cersei suspects her even now that she has testified against him.

[Kittykatknits]

Since I'm lazy, I'm copying over a couple recent posts of mine on Tyrion as a character. For lack of a better phrase, I think he is on a reverse redemption arc and has been since the beginning of the series. For all he has been through, at the end of Dance his compass is still pointing the same way - Casterly Rock.

I think this quote from Martin is very relevant here, bolded part is mine:

Quote

Tyrion Lannister is my favourite. He is the grayest of the gray. In every conventional sense, he is on the wrong side but you have to agree with some of the things he is doing while loathing others. He is very smart and witty, and that makes him fun to write.

http://www.sfsite.com/01a/gm95.htm

I know you've struggled with some of the chapter evaluations and I can understand why. I will say bb, that out of the many posters I regularly talk to or interact with, I always notice your effort to remain objective and look at an issue from multiple angles, making a judgment after thoughtful consideration. So, I'm inclined to agree with WK here. I think you are being a little to hard on yourself. From what I have seen, you are taking off your sympathy hat and looking at the cold hard facts. And, for the most part, the cold hard facts, void of Tyrion's pity or self-justification, lead to some very harsh judgments.

I can only speak for myself here but I'll do my best to convey how I react to Tyrion in this re-read and in general, hopefully in some sort of an objective manner. I highlighted that sentence above from Martin because, to me, it's a compact way of saying exactly what is happening with Tyrion. As WK notes, his actions are what ultimately describe him. Yet, a reader can find themselves rooting for those actions because we are given access to his thoughts, we know why he is doing those acts. I do believe Martin wrote Tyrion in a way that does require the reader to constantly divorce our emotional reaction from our measured, logical reaction - if that makes sense. However, as this re-read and other Tyrion threads in general point out, that is sometimes easier said than done.

For myself, I was incredibly sympathetic the very first time I read the series. I took Tyrion's side on every issue and that includes his behavior towards Sansa, Shae, his sister, Joffrey, everything. I don't mind admitting that I fell for Martin's writing tricks, hook, line, and sinker. It was on a re-read that I was able to slow down and think about the words on the page, my eagerness to find out what happened next was gone. It's at this point that I began to really question Tyrion and his actions. The more I questioned, the more I realized I was horrified at much of what he does. Back to the Martin quote, I began to root for him less and less. When Feast came out, Genna's words about him and Tywin confirmed it for me.

I find his treatment and behavior towards both Sansa and Shae to be quite awful. I'm also protective of Sansa and I'm sure that is no secret on this board. Equally, I'm horrified at his treatment of Tysha, I find his memories of their time together and afterwards to be absolutely awful. I can get his reasoning for singer's stew but sorry, I still can't say murder (and in such a manner) is a reasonable course of action. Especially as I think it's a situation he created for himself.

I know that Tyrion is a dwarf and suffers prejudice for it. Yet, I can't help but contrast his actions to others in the story. Sansa was laughed at and mocked by Lancel when beaten but she still found empathy for him during the BBW. Tyrion's reaction to the singers' mockery was to break the man's fingers. Or Jon who suffered, and continues to suffer, his own share of prejudice because of his status as a bastard. We saw quite a bit of self-pity in Game yet Jon never let that fact define him. He's set about to prove himself on his merits. In contrast, I see repeated thoughts and actions from Tyrion that show the very opposite. It seems to me that Tyrion sometimes, and this is whether he realizes it or not, allows himself to be defined by his dwarfism in a way that Jon did not with his bastardy. I use these examples to show that these characters have choices and there are examples in the text that support the idea that Tyrion could have made different choices, but chooses not to do so.

Like you, I also react to the way the text portrays him so sympathetically when it comes to women. To be flat out honest, I find it deeply troubling, and at times it borders on the offensive. However, I think this serves to ultimately reveal more about Tyrion. It is troubling and we should be troubled by it. His thoughts and objectification of women are not good or admirable or something to root for.

Ultimately, the more objective I try to be, the more I realize that I have less sympathy for him. It is objectivity that has led me to realize just how much he is his father's son, has a skewed moral compass, and constantly supports the corrupt Lannister cause. Those are not things that I feel sympathy for, quite the opposite. Over time, I've come to feel as if his being a dwarf, unloved by his father, and thinking he killed his mother are causes to explain his behavior. But, that is it. They are not excuses or justifications. He makes his choices and those choices are often in support of bad causes.

So, that's me trying to be as honest and objective as I can be when it comes to explaining how I feel about Tyrion and what this re-read has led me to consider even further. I don't know if this will help you with your struggle or not, but I do hope it will show that you are not alone when it comes to your conflict and your reactions.

Perhaps there are two separate issues at play here? The internal focus, the navel gazing keeps Tyrion from being able to act or do. In Clash, from the very beginning he had an agenda and marching orders which kept that navel gazing at bay. There was little time for woe is me in between replacing Slynt, building the chain, and all the many tasks that would have consumed his time. He was able to do but that's not the same as saying he won't also be a pawn in the games of others or that he doesn't have a flaw that renders him immune to manipulation either. I guess what I'm trying to say is that an ability to function doesn't lead to a 100% success rate by default. So, essentially, we are talking about why he can't act (the be as Blisscraft put it so well) and why he isn't always getting it right when he is actually doing.

Also, back to the internal and navel gazing, it occurs to me that paying attention to this focus could provide big clues as to where Tyrion as a character is going in the series. LS pointed out what happened in Dance and I think that pattern could repeat itself when Winds comes out. Tyrion was at his best in Clash when he was focused outward. Tyrion's self-pity was pretty strong almost from his first paragraphs in Storm, laying the groundwork for his story in the rest of the book. It would not surprise me that his emotional state at any point in time will provide strong clues as to how he may behave or react in future chapters.

[nekrohsis]

I don't think the Shae thing was as evil as Jaime throwing Bran from the tower (Jaime was trying to kill him; he admitted as much to Cat). Tyrion spends a good part of ADWD caring for Penny, who's probably the last person in the world he'd befriend--a dwarf, reminding him of his own shortcomings, naive, which is a stark contrast to his own worldview, and a female he's not sexually attracted to nor related to (the first female friend he's ever had). He even helps Jorah escape slavery, when Jorah imprisoned him once. So if Jaime can have a redemptive arc, than so can Tyrion. I actually think he's become a better person through the experience of becoming a slave.

I'm still rooting for the Imp

[Florina Laufeyson]

Tyrion is actually quite condescending to Penny. I think its reaching to call her a friend of his.

[Betty Amazing]

I think the false confession was to hurt Jamie more than anything.

Tyrion is completely pathetic in ADWD, he's stumbling around lost, and bitter... Doesn't excuse his actions in the slightest, although it makes them more understandable I think.

[greensleeves]

More than dark vs. light, what often gives me pause about Tyrion are his personal issues. He lets his self pity warp the way he sees the world, and it's an issue for him at varying levels from the beginning of AGOT. His overly delicate ego exposes him to being manipulated and used in a variety of disheartening ways. I'm more interested his evolving mental state than whether he's dark or light (though they are clearly connected).

[Theda Baratheon]

I don't think Shae was evil and she didn't deserve death, that's like saying ever female that ultimately spurns the affections of a male and vice versa deserve to be killed. I know she pretended to be attracted to him, but she was a whore.

I was also a huge, huge Tyrion fan and I think this was influenced quite a lot by Peter Dinklage playing Tyrion in the TV show but as I read and re-read the books I am definitely not rooting for him as the character I once loved. I still think he is a wonderful character overall though and I am very interested in where his fate lies...

[danm_999]

Obviously Cersei has a carrot as well as a stick in her repertoire, though the carrot would not have actually been dealt out: "The queen made it plain that the whore would have nothing of her until she told them where Sansa Stark had gone. “You were her maid. Do you expect me to believe that you knew nothing of her plans?” she had said." Frankly, I only think that this shows how endangered Shae would have been if she had not thoroughly distanced herself from Tyrion. Cersei suspects her even now that she has testified against him.

Right, but this is where you cross the line from not siding with Tyrion to save yourself, to lying about Tyrion to profit yourself, the latter of which I found far less forgiving.

See, Shae went back to Cersei after the trial, and basically asked for her fee (a husband for her lie). If she was motivated purely by fear of Cersei and survival instinct, I feel Shae would have never done this, and perhaps even left King's Landing. Instead she looked for a payday, and to do this she had lied at a trial to provide the smoking gun that would condemn an innocent person to death.

I don't think she deserved death, but she definitely broke a trust she had with Tyrion.

[The Mother of The Others]

At first it's refreshing when someone's a livewire, because you get that liberating sense that anything can happen when you're around them.

Then over time you grow to dread the person when you realize they really are capable of anything. Bad experiences start to pile up.

I decided to like the character, and haven't pulled away in disdain like others have, but I do disdain his recent chapters for how they're lousy, not as appealing or action-packed anymore. Now instead of midget-against-the-world all we're getting from him is an uncut MTV reality show as he wallows in depression. Luckily, the slide seems to be over. The next book will feature him being industrious Tyrion again. Working his way up the ranks and getting noticed by Daenny or whomever.