Tyrion: Oh, What To Think

[nekrohsis]

Tyrion built up a lot of bad karma while in KL, in part because he's a competent guy in service to bad causes, and he chooses to partake in these bad causes by his own free will.

But why are these causes bad? Because Joffrey's an ass? Tyrion and Tywin manage to limit Joff's craziness quite well. Or are the causes only bad because they oppose the Stark cause? Tyrion's doing the exact same thing Robb is--fighting for his family. That's what I love about the books. You can root for the characters on all sides of the war.

Furthermore, I don't think that liking Tyrion means I'm morally deficient, or that I don't read the books deeply enough to understand the subtext. I just think he's been on a redemptive path since ADWD.

And furthermore, if Tyrion was perfectly moral, he'd be boring to read about.

[Sevumar]

I think the point is, he writes off people's criticism of him because he only thinks of it as being because he's a dwarf. That he really is a mouthy, self-pitying, whoring, ruthless, opportunistic git is apparently not a possible reason in his mind for people to criticize. It's only because he's a dwarf, you see. Never mind that he's part of the family actively keeping Sansa a prisoner and actively working to defeat her family and actively plotting to carve up her country for his own purposes.

We know from her early reactions to Tyrion that she does see him as monstrous and twisted. In the early part of the series, a very large part of Sansa's impressions of things are derived from their appearances. Nobody expects Sansa to fall to her knees and thank Tyrion for the privilege of being married to him. Hell, he doesn't want the marriage either.

Most of what we're taking Tyrion to task for is in fact not what characters in the scope of the story are criticizing him for, so he is correct in that the opinions people hold of him are heavily influenced by his status as a dwarf and an outsider.

[butterbumps!]

Yea, but what's the context here? He's on trial for a crime he didn't commit, with lines of witnesses lining up against him. Is that just more self-victimization? Should he just buck up and stop whining?

What does that have to do with what I cited? I was showing how Tyrion habitually chalks his problems up to being a dwarf. When he is upset that Sansa did not respect their marriage vows, he chalked the reason up to his dwarfism rather than his own participation in imprisoning her. The next line I has quoted was to show the disconnect between his thoughts of being a victim of the marriage (which it is often argued that he was just as forced into as she was, which is false), and the fact that his marriage to Sansa is an incredible opportunity for him politically, which he recognizes and tries to exploit.

But why are these causes bad? Because Joffrey's an ass? Tyrion and Tywin manage to limit Joff's craziness quite well. Or are the causes only bad because they oppose the Stark cause? Tyrion's doing the exact same thing Robb is--fighting for his family.

Tyrion knows his family is in the wrong though, and the cause of much suffering and injustice. Jaime stands up to Tywin, refusing to obey and isn't punished; Tyrion doesn't want to stand against him, because he trapped by his desire to make Tywin proud.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But why are these causes bad? Because Joffrey's an ass? Tyrion and Tywin manage to limit Joff's craziness quite well. Or are the causes only bad because they oppose the Stark cause? Tyrion's doing the exact same thing Robb is--fighting for his family.

Joffrey is a sociopath who, left on the throne, would have become a tyrant worse than Aerys. Whatever his feelings are for his family, Tyrion played a part in keeping a murderous sociopath (and oh yeah, a bastard) in power.

[bent branch]

Everyone can break if pushed far enough. While everyone is debating whether Tyrion was genuinely pushed that far, I think about what his aunt Genna said to Jaime. What she doesn't say is even more important. She doesn't say she is surprised that Tyrion ended up killing Tywin. Nor does she seem to condemn Tyrion for killing Tywin. Instead she seems incredibly sad at how it all turned out. She tells Jaime that Tyrion was his father's son because Tywin would never have allowed himself to be abused the way he abused Tyrion. This makes me think that we see only the tip of the iceberg when we see how Tywin treated Tyrion.

[redviper9]

I'm not surprised that there's an overwhelming response of sympathy for Tyrion here. I think this is testament to the quality of Martin's writing. The fact is, though, that Tyrion is a victim of nothing but himself, and his POVs are written in such a way that obfuscates this fact.

Tyrion is the source of his own misery. In his POV he attributes all of his problems to dwarfism and presents himself as a victim. His POVs are chock full of "good intentions," "rationalizations," and "victimization," but the reality is that Tyrion does a lot of terrible things and allows himself to wallow in his self-imposed prison because he can't decide between doing the "right thing" or satisfying his own selfish desires.

His whole "I'm a dwarf, and all my problems are because I'm a dwarf" is completely not the reality of the situation. He can't face the fact that he has been a willing participant in many acts he knows are "wrong," and hides behind the victim excuse in order to keep his conscience clear.

If you actually look at tyrion's problems, they have pretty much nothinbg to do with his dwarfism and pretty much everything to do with the fact that he does bad things and becomes a victimizer to many people.

For an example of what I mean, consider this. Just before Tyrion goes on trial for the PW, he thinks on Sansa: "One flesh, one heart, one soul. His mouth twisted. She wasted no time proving how much those vows meant to her, did she? Well, what did you expect, dwarf?" He's actually upset that Sansa escaped her wedding vows, and cites his dwarfism as the reason (I mean, not for example that Tyrion is a Lannister and thus, a victim at Tyrion's hand). Oh, but wait, it gets better. Just a few paragraphs later he tries to bribe Bronn into fighting as his champion in trial by combat, and what does Tyrion offer? Sansa's lands: “My lady wife is heir to Winterfell. Should I emerge from this with my head still on my shoulders, I may one day rule the north in her name. I could carve you out a big piece of it.” This poor soul, who just thought he was a victim of a jilted marriage due to dwarfism is parceling up Sansa's claim, and he proclaims that he intends to rule one day in her name. This is not a man who is a victimized as his POV makes it appear on a casual read.

Brava!

The funny thing is that Tyrion thinks to himself more than once that its his own words and actions that get him into trouble. He certainly realizes that he should have kept his mouth shut when he gets to the Eyrie; and he knows he's toeing the line when he's being auctioned off at Meereen. But his dwarfism always provides an escape route, as it were. Rather than critically examine his actions, he can always say to himself, "everyone hates me because I'm a dwarf."

That doesn't mean that Tywin and Cersei didn't treat him like crap, or that he wasn't affected by being blamed for his mother's death or being lied to about who Tysha really was. But his dwarfism -- or, to be more precise, his idea that his dwarfism is the only reason people don't like him -- allows him to not look himself in the mirror and realize that yes, his aunt Genna has the right of it: Tyrion is Tywin's son in ways that Jaime never will be. He hates laughter as much as Tywin. He has no problem employing less-than-savory characters. And atrocities are worthwhile if they help the cause of House Lannister. Tyrion is -- as he himself points out in the privy -- Tywin writ small.

[nekrohsis]

Joffrey is a sociopath who, left on the throne, would have become a tyrant worse than Aerys. Whatever his feelings are for his family, Tyrion played a part in keeping a murderous sociopath (and oh yeah, a bastard) in power.

The bastard part doesn't matter--if Joff would be a good king, who cares who his father is? The crazy part is a problem, but Tyrion firmly believes Joff can be kept under control by himself, Cersei, and Tywin. He's not about to give the boy free reign. What is he supposed to do? Murder his nephew and join the Starks?

[Sevumar]

What does that have to do with what I cited? I was showing how Tyrion habitually chalks his problems up to being a dwarf. When he is upset that Sansa did not respect their marriage vows, he chalked the reason up to his dwarfism rather than his own participation in imprisoning her. The next line I has quoted was to show the disconnect between his thoughts of being a victim of the marriage (which it is often argued that he was just as forced into as she was, which is false), and the fact that his marriage to Sansa is an incredible opportunity for him politically, which he recognizes and tries to exploit.

It's clear that Tyrion is deeply conflicted about the marriage. He ultimately decides that it's better for him to marry her than to leave it to chance and have some other Lannister end up taking his place. There's an element of ego in this, but also an element of truth. On the whole, I think he still finds the marriage scenario distasteful and forced.

And Tyrion is right in his impressions. Sansa does think of him as a monster in large part because of his looks. His genetic relationship to her captors also plays a role, but that isn't something Tyrion can really change. He simply doesn't have the power to do anything about it and at least as long as he's married to her, he can protect her from worse treatment at the hands of others. It's not a clean kind of nobility, but it's much better than she would've been had Tywin married her to Joffrey or any other Lannister.

[Full-Faced Braavosi]

Everyone has baggage and things that are out of their control, and I am not saying that everything that is bad that has ever happened to him is exclusively his fault. The point of my post was to demonstrate that much of what comes across in Tyrion's own inner monologue obfuscates the fact that nearly all of the problems that face him are of his own creation, and he habitually attributes issues to inaccurate sources. He makes it seem like he has no choice in many things that he actually does have a choice in, and usually chooses an option that is less objectively moral. Tyrion built up a lot of bad karma while in KL, in part because he's a competent guy in service to bad causes, and he chooses to partake in these bad causes by his own free will. As his problem come to head and resurface, his inner monologue makes it seem like he had no responsibility for bringing calamities on himself. His own POV makes him extremely sympathetic and justified, but under that veneer, there's a different picture.

That's quite some equivocation.

I think the point is, he writes off people's criticism of him because he only thinks of it as being because he's a dwarf. That he really is a mouthy, self-pitying, whoring, ruthless, opportunistic git is apparently not a possible reason in his mind for people to criticize. It's only because he's a dwarf, you see. Never mind that he's part of the family actively keeping Sansa a prisoner and actively working to defeat her family and actively plotting to carve up her country for his own purposes. She doesn't like him because he's a dwarf. /sarcast

Mmm.... No doubt he is highly concerned with his dwarfism, but this is really airbrushing other people's reactions to and actions against him.

It's Sansa's POV for their wedding. She intentionally embarrasses him, thinks he's ugly, and describes him as a monster.

[Castel]

Tyrion knows his family is in the wrong though, and the cause of much suffering and injustice. Jaime stands up to Tywin, refusing to obey and isn't punished; Tyrion doesn't want to stand against him, because he trapped by his desire to make Tywin proud.

Jaime disagrees on other matters, but like Tyrion he never once considers taking his son off the throne. Not once. Ultimately all the Lannisters, like everyone else in the world, stand together. Tyrion especially depends on his father for money and legitimacy. Granted her makes life much harder for himself but I can't say that he does that in spite of his dwarfism or because of his status, he may know that he can get away with it and so feels powerful in being an ass to people who dislike him already.

If Tywin and the Lannisters were to lose Tyrion might well end up dead. This isn't our world. Doing the right thing means nothing. Ambition, being born into the wrong clan, being too successful, any of those things can lead to your death so you stay with the people who keep you alive.

[Full-Faced Braavosi]

Joffrey is a sociopath who, left on the throne, would have become a tyrant worse than Aerys. Whatever his feelings are for his family, Tyrion played a part in keeping a murderous sociopath (and oh yeah, a bastard) in power.

Option 1: Do nothing, stay away, leave Joffrey in power.

Option 2: Actively depose Joffrey.

Option 3: Maintain Joffrey, but temper his wrath.

For those saying Tyrion's problems are all of his own creation, tell me which of these is the moral choice that has no repercussions for Tyrion.

[butterbumps!]

That's quite some equivocation.

No, nearly all of the problems he faces during the books are of his own creation. Bad things have happened to him in the past, but he bears responsibility for nearly everything we see "on screen" during the series, with perhaps the exceptions of LF false knife accusation.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's Sansa's POV for their wedding. She intentionally embarrasses him, thinks he's ugly, and describes him as a monster.

What nerve that litte brat Sansa has, amirite, not going along with being married off against her will so that the Lannisters, the family that helped murder her family members and plots to steal her inheritance, can use her as a political pawn. And before anyone says, "Oh but Tyrion didn't want that ..." he was fucking willing enough to promise Bronn a hunk of his wife's land in exchange for his services.

She didn't owe him shit.

[Sevumar]

Mmm.... No doubt he is highly concerned with his dwarfism, but this is really airbrushing other people's reactions to and actions against him.

It's Sansa's POV for their wedding. She intentionally embarrasses him, thinks he's ugly, and describes him as a monster.

For some reason, those in the "Tyrion is the author of all of his own misery" camp conveniently ignore this evidence from the text because it doesn't support their position.

[Florina Laufeyson]

It's Sansa's POV for their wedding. She intentionally embarrasses him, thinks he's ugly, and describes him as a monster.

And why would should we blame her for that? She is publicly humiliated by having to marry him anyway. Marrying a member of the family that destroyed her own. Of course shes gonna think him a monster.

[Sevumar]

What nerve that litte brat Sansa has, amirite, not going along with being married off against her will so that the Lannisters, the family that helped murder her family members and plots to steal her inheritance, can use her as a political pawn. And before anyone says, "Oh but Tyrion didn't want that ..." he was fucking willing enough to promise Bronn a hunk of his wife's land in exchange for his services.

She didn't owe him shit.

This is a strawman. The argument being made is not that Sansa owes Tyrion anything, but whether her reaction to him is based in large part on his dwarfism, which it clearly is. Nobody is saying that Sansa should have acted the dutiful wife here, but we are saying that her judgment of him has quite a bit to do with his deformity and his appearance, in addition to his surname.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I think that GRRM wanted Tyrion to be that reader (and viewer) favorite, the wise-cracking bad guy. Unfortunately he made Tyrion really bad without giving him the charm, looks, secret heart of gold, yadda yadda, possessed by the classic wise-cracking bad guy. This work is also overloaded with wise-cracking bad guys -- Jaime, Littlefinger, Bronn, Stannis (obliviously) -- so Tyrion is just left with bad, in my opinion, anyway.

Sure Tyrion hit bottom in ADWD, but he hit it so hard that I don't think anything he does will redeem him in my eyes.

[Castel]

What nerve that litte brat Sansa has, amirite, not going along with being married off against her will so that the Lannisters, the family that helped murder her family members and plots to steal her inheritance, can use her as a political pawn. And before anyone says, "Oh but Tyrion didn't want that ..." he was fucking willing enough to promise Bronn a hunk of his wife's land in exchange for his services.

She didn't owe him shit.

This is a weak argument. Tyrion was about to be killed. IF you want to point out that he was willing,you could simply bring up the fact that he married her at all. It is also irrelevant to Sansa's feelings at the time.

[Faint]

I've no problem with Tyrion. The only transgression I have ever held against a fictional character is if the character is boring. By that measure, Tyrion is undoubtedly innocent.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think that GRRM wanted Tyrion to be that reader (and viewer) favorite, the wise-cracking bad guy. Unfortunately he made Tyrion really bad without giving him the charm, looks, secret heart of gold, yadda yadda, possessed by the classic wise-cracking bad guy. This work is also overloaded with wise-cracking bad guys -- Jaime, Littlefinger, Bronn, Stannis (obliviously) -- so Tyrion is just left with bad, in my opinion, anyway.

Sure Tyrion hit bottom in ADWD, but he hit it so hard that I don't think anything he does will redeem him in my eyes.

I think Tyrion might be GRRM's greatest trick — cowing people into thinking the poor, put-upon, plucky, witty dwarf is one of the "good guys" when in fact he was a villain hiding in plain sight all along.