Tyrion: Oh, What To Think

[Ramsay Gimp]

He is a victim of circumstances a lot, and circumstances also helped shape his character, but he was a jerk, a liar and an accessory to murder from the first moment he was on-screen. Theon is a better man than him.

Eh...Tyrion never ordered the deaths of children, or betrayed a close friendship.

But Theon and Tyrion make an interesting comparison. There are very big differences due to the circumstances of their lives, but they are both held in contempt by their fathers, distrusted by their cultures, despised by many for crimes they actually didn't do (but claim credit for), and are both at their lowest points in ADWD

[Sevumar]

He is a victim of circumstances a lot, and circumstances also helped shape his character, but he was a jerk, a liar and an accessory to murder from the first moment he was on-screen. Theon is a better man than him.

Yet this doesn't weight on how his story can unfold: even villains can have epiphanies or stumble upon something good, in the grand scheme of things.

Tyrion's far from the best guy in the series, but I don't necessarily think he's a villain. He has less blood on his hands than any number of characters, some of whom have considerable fan bases. A jerk he may be, but just about everyone is guilty of that one. It really doesn't set him apart from much of the cast of characters and it's not a particularly big offense.

He is one of the most abused characters in the series and that abuse has had a profound effect on his development as a person. We should expect him to be damaged, but beyond that, we continue to see the abuse in evidence on the pages of the book. He's also done a fair number of good things, which are often overlooked by those seeking to demonize him.

I'm not sure what your "accessory to murder" accusation is about. Care to elaborate?

[Alkion]

It is made very clear that Tyrion was never considered heir to Casterly Rock by his father. Jamie entered the Kingsguard in 282 (assuming I've done my math right), meaning Tyrion should have become heir and been groomed to be so from the age of 8 years old. There wouldn't exactly have been much to hate him for at age 8, would there? Yet it seems Tywin already did, to have never treated him as heir?

So whether it was because he "killed" his mother, or some combination of the two, there is no escaping the fact that Tywin hated Tyrion for no reason other than how he was born.

[Full-Faced Braavosi]

He is a victim of circumstances a lot, and circumstances also helped shape his character, but he was a jerk, a liar and an accessory to murder from the first moment he was on-screen. Theon is a better man than him.

Whose?

[Castel]

What abuse specifically?

The rape of Tysha

.

I agree that a person's childhood has an effect on a person's adulthood, yes. I don't agree that bad experiences should be used to write off someone's actions.

Please show me where I stated that his actions should have been written off. I went out of my way to state the opposite just to avoid this line of discussion.

We definitely know Tywin committed very serious abuse against Tyrion when he was 13, but again, it wasn't related to Tyrion's dwarfism. It was the fact that Tywin is a disgusting pig who punishes anyone who appears to be trying to rise above their positions. I just can't recall a specific example where Tywin hated and abused Tyrion due to dwarfism.

You quote me and yet don't address the point I was trying to make. Why Tyrion was abused is not really as relevant (to me) as why Tyrion thinks he was abused when we're talking about his mental health.

Now, granted, Tywin had a somewhat good case (by westerosi standards) for abusing him in some fashion, but the brutality of it and it's constancy combined with the societal attitudes towards Tyrion make him believing that people despise him for his dwarfism reasonable. It may not be the whole story but I don't think that Tyrion is wrong to think that it is. I mean, even if it isn't with Tywin it probably is for everyone else,something brought home by the Tysha debacle.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

What abuse specifically? I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I really want to know what I've overlooked. Tywin had an irrational disdain for Tyrion due to Joanna dying in child birth, he hated Tyrion's tumbling though we discover that Tywin hated anything that made people laugh at Lannisters. We definitely know Tywin committed very serious abuse against Tyrion when he was 13, but again, it wasn't related to Tyrion's dwarfism. It was the fact that Tywin is a disgusting pig who punishes anyone who appears to be trying to rise above their positions. I just can't recall a specific example where Tywin hated and abused Tyrion due to dwarfism.

I agree that a person's childhood has an effect on a person's adulthood, yes. I don't agree that bad experiences should be used to write off someone's actions. I can sympathize with Tyrion's childhood and sympathize with the fact that he was born in a culture and position that might have made it difficult to be a dwarf. But my sympathy for Tyrion's past doesn't extend to his present. In the series, we have seen him being a vile piece of self-pitying shit who whores and drinks and envies and lusts since book one. I lose all sympathy when he doesn't acknowledge that he actually is what people think of him or when he decides that the one point he would stand up to his father would be to kill him.

There are a lot of characters who've had rough pasts. I can sympathize with the bad they've experienced, but I definitely do not accept that they can use it as an excuse for who they choose to be.

I just think it's very much implied that one of the reasons Tywin hates Tyrion is because of his dwarfism, his "imperfection". One time Tyrion recalls his father never wanted him to have any contact with other dwarfs in his past because of the shame. Here is the quote:

"Tyrion Lannister had scant experience with other dwarfs. His lord father had not welcomed any reminders of his son’s deformities, and such mummers as featured little folk in their troupes soon learned to stay away from Lannisport and Casterly Rock, at the risk of his displeasure."

[Currawong]

I think you forget that Tyrion could have escaped without killing anyone if he had just followed Varys like he was supposed to. It really wasn't like she was in the middle of the tunnel watching out for escaping prisoners. In his POV he never once reflects that he "had" to kill her because she would rat him out.

Exactly. He'd have been safe, and big brother Jaime would undoubtedly have seen that he received money from time to time to keep him going.

Tyrion is the source of his own misery. In his POV he attributes all of his problems to dwarfism and presents himself as a victim. His POVs are chock full of "good intentions," "rationalizations," and "victimization," but the reality is that Tyrion does a lot of terrible things and allows himself to wallow in his self-imposed prison because he can't decide between doing the "right thing" or satisfying his own selfish desires.

His whole "I'm a dwarf, and all my problems are because I'm a dwarf" is completely not the reality of the situation. He can't face the fact that he has been a willing participant in many acts he knows are "wrong," and hides behind the victim excuse in order to keep his conscience clear.

If you actually look at tyrion's problems, they have pretty much nothinbg to do with his dwarfism and pretty much everything to do with the fact that he does bad things and becomes a victimizer to many people.

Precisely. It was far more convenient for him to see himself as a continual victim, and much easier to do that than to actually DO anything about it. He chose to remain within the Lannister fold and dance to Tywin's tune, and if he had really wanted to clear out and go his own way, I have no doubt that even 'old' Jaime would have helped him as far as possible, because Jaime had loved Tyrion.

[greensleeves]

I'm not defending the slow rate of Tyrion's character growth. There are a lot of things about him that make me uncomfortable or outright disgust me, but the fact is that much of what Tyrion has experienced in life has been on account of dwarfism. That he has been a target of discrimination, humiliation, and even physical abuse for more than two decades of his life needs to be acknowledged and taken into account when evaluating the character and his actions.

We are all shaped and influenced by our environments. However, understanding the circumstances that helped make someone into a horrible person does not make them any less of a horrible person. Many of the worst characters in the series suffered from abuse of some kind. It's the same way in the real world.

[Sevumar]

Precisely. It was far more convenient for him to see himself as a continual victim, and much easier to do that than to actually DO anything about it. He chose to remain within the Lannister fold and dance to Tywin's tune, and if he had really wanted to clear out and go his own way, I have no doubt that even 'old' Jaime would have helped him as far as possible, because Jaime had loved Tyrion.

To a large degree Tyrion saw himself as a continual victim because he was one. No matter where he went, what he did, or what he accomplished, Tywin refused to recognize Tyrion's achievements and his rights, even when Tywin appealed to him to stop the madness in King's Landing. The world of Westeros continually reminds Tyrion of his deformity and of his inferiority in their society. The only time that he gets any respect for his intellect and his abilities is at the Wall, and even that is from a small subset of the men of the Night's Watch.

It's unreasonable to expect Tyrion to abandon his rights as the heir to Casterly Rock. He has good reason to try to earn what's his and part of what's so heartbreaking about him is that he keeps trying to win his father's respect while he's at it.

I think you forget that Tyrion has done a lot to better himself. In the absence of martial ability, Tyrion set himself the task of becoming a scholar and his knowledge is commented upon by almost every learned character he encounters. Perhaps you remember, "My mind is my weapon. My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer, and I have my mind . . . and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." He has made good on this his whole life, even taking time to browse the libraries of Winterfell for the short time he's there.

While the king's party goes back to comfort in King's Landing, Tyrion alone takes the time and effort to see the Wall and get to know the men of the Night's Watch. He's constantly learning and constantly applying that knowledge, because it's what he had to do to survive and it's the only way he knew to try to earn love and respect from those who withheld it for no good reason.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

I'm not defending the slow rate of Tyrion's character growth. There are a lot of things about him that make me uncomfortable or outright disgust me, but the fact is that much of what Tyrion has experienced in life has been on account of dwarfism. That he has been a target of discrimination, humiliation, and even physical abuse for more than two decades of his life needs to be acknowledged and taken into account when evaluating the character and his actions.

Yes, exactly, he has his own share of crimes but that doesn't excuse Tywin and Cersei in any way. Their excuses for hating Tyrion have nothing to do with the character unsympathetic traits (self-pitying, rape, murder, treason, etc) but extends to their own insecurities and less than flattening personal characteristics.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

We are all shaped and influenced by our environments. However, understanding the circumstances that helped make someone into a horrible person does not make them any less of a horrible person. Many of the worst characters in the series suffered from abuse of some kind. It's the same way in the real world.

Exactly. I'm very leery of excusing or otherwise rationalizing someone's behavior based on past abuse, because it ignores two things. 1. Many, many people are abused without becoming abusers themselves, and 2. there's always someone out there who has it worse than you do. An abused person becoming an abuser just continues a vicious cycle. You want someone in this series who actually knows what suffering is, look at a person like Pia. She ought to be a damn serial killer by a lot of the metrics used here.

[Castel]

Exactly. He'd have been safe, and big brother Jaime would undoubtedly have seen that he received money from time to time to keep him going.

Yes. Because Jaime Lannister could protect Tyrion from Tywin Lannister. The Tywin Lannister. You greatly overestimate Jaime.

So...Tyrion wanders around in a time where it's dangerous to go on the roads, and hopes that he gets paid off by a Kingsguard knight that has taken a vow of poverty (does Jaime even have any money?), while pissing off his father, who has shown himself to be a terrible monster. To do what? roam the streets as a dwarf?This is totally a full proof plan.

Honestly, the best option would be to join the Maesters, other than that...his future is bleak

Exactly. I'm very leery of excusing or otherwise rationalizing someone's behavior based on past abuse, because it ignores two things. 1. Many, many people are abused without becoming abusers themselves, and 2. there's always someone out there who has it worse than you do. An abused person becoming an abuser just continues a vicious cycle. You want someone in this series who actually knows what suffering is, look at a person like Pia. She ought to be a damn serial killer by a lot of the metrics used here.

People are not the same. Their circumstances are different and they react differently. And who excused Tyrion's actions? This always comes up, I can't recall anyone ever doing it.

I don't understand your criticism. It's true on a large scale, but we're talking about a scenario where we can see the effect abuse has had on a person or at least extrapolate it with some measure of confidence.

[raybeas]

Not having read any previous posts...

My initial thoughts for Tyrion were - he could rule the seven kingdoms, if not for his dwarfism.

Getting into the series, it seemed he was destined for a mentors role, advising (Jon, Stannis, Dany) on the how and whys of rule in Westeros.

I think he will win a one-on-one battle vs a major character (Jaime, LF, Theon, Arya) and become the King's Hand for whichever ruler comes out on top

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

People are not the same. Their circumstances are different and they react differently. And who excused Tyrion's actions? This always comes up, I can't recall anyone ever doing it.

I don't understand your criticism. It's true on a large scale, but we're talking about a scenario where we can see the effect abuse has had on a person or at least extrapolate it with some measure of confidence.

Yes , that's the whole point. Tyrion has lot to answer for. That's a fact. That he was abused, humiliated and unloved for reasons he had no control, which includes his dwarfism and his mother's "killing", by his father and sister is also a plain fact

[butterbumps!]

Yes, yes you did. Apologies, I'm getting sarcastic and it's not coming through well.

It seems odd to say "Everything is his fault..." oh, except for that one eensy time where he was accused of committing child murder whereupon he would've been killed if not for his wits to entice Bronn to his defense.

Ah, apparently you weren't making it clear. What you meant was:

"I am not saying that everything that is bad that has ever happened to him is exclusively his fault..." just everything bad that has happened to him in the last three years.

"Nearly all of the problems that face him are of his own creation" since we met him 3 years ago.

And... Ignoring the first twenty years's affect on the last three years.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at, except doing your absolute best to try to discredit me by some semantic technicality.

Tyrion has baggage, yet when we meet Tyrion, he's a grown man and responsible for his actions. Over the "past 3 years" we have seen Tyrion create problems and suffer the consequences of these self-created problems. With the obvious exclusion of the dagger incident, nearly all of the problems he faces and harm he comes to stem from problems he personally caused.

The abuse and dwarf-related suffering Tyrion faces comes almost entirely from Tyrion's recollection of past events; I don't discount the fact that Tyrion has been disadvantaged and treated quite poorly because of it, but given Tyrion's solipsism that we see, I'm not fully certain how that we can trust all of these memories perfectly, as we see events unfold where he attributes the cause to dwarfism despite the fact that we can see dwarfism played no role.

Beyond this, I do not understand why Tyrion's current actions are excused by virtue of the fact that bad things happened to him as a child. I hold Cersei accountable for her enormities despite her setbacks as I do Ramsay and Sandor and everyone else who has had a shitty childhood but are now adults and capable of knowing right from wrong. If Tyrion's actions are attributed solely to all the past abuse he's allegedly endured, where does his personal responsibility come into play?

Tyrion is extremely sympathetic, and as I first stated, this is the beauty of Martin's craft: he wraps us up in the head of Tyrion, where all of his actions are sympathetic and justified despite the fact that Tyrion is actually not a tremendously nice person and honestly very similar to Tywin in many ways. He's extremely compelling and well written, though I think there's a tendency to dwell too deeply in Tyrion's highly solipsistic thoughts and not realize, as he doesn't, how he's the architect of his own prison.

Why these people hold grudges is irrelevant no? The issue is what effect it had on Tyrion's psyche and what he would attribute it to. My position is that it's quite reasonable to attribute it to his dwarfism, especially if he heard nothing about any prophecies.

Let's just be clear here:Apple Martini, Butterbumps, Dr Pepper: Do you disagree with this position?

My point wasn't about debating whether dwarfism has affected Tyrion. My point was about the disconnect between what Tyrion believes is the source of people's hatred versus the reality of it. Tywin and Tyrion have multiple conversations before he kills his father; the Tysha incident and the "disgrace" it brought to House Lannister is what Tywin always goes back to. Tywin also holds it against Tyrion that Joanna died. The point here is not whether one can actually hold Tyrion responsible for killing his mother, but rather that there's disconnect between real and perceived cause of the hatred on Tyrion's part. I don't debate whether it's reasonable for Tyrion to believe his father hates him because he's a dwarf; what I've been trying to express is the fact that "dwarfism" has become Tyrion's go-to rationale every time someone is cold to him. It shows a lack of introspection and maturity in his thought process despite having highly developed cognitive skills in other areas.

[Sevumar]

Exactly. I'm very leery of excusing or otherwise rationalizing someone's behavior based on past abuse, because it ignores two things. 1. Many, many people are abused without becoming abusers themselves, and 2. there's always someone out there who has it worse than you do. An abused person becoming an abuser just continues a vicious cycle. You want someone in this series who actually knows what suffering is, look at a person like Pia. She ought to be a damn serial killer by a lot of the metrics used here.

Nobody has rationalized Tyrion's worst acts. What people who take issue with what you and those who agree with you are saying is that your view of Tyrion is reductionist and attempts to blame him for things that are often beyond his control. The simple fact of the matter is that the reaction of most people to Tyrion, Lannisters included, has been overwhelmingly driven by his physical appearance. Not only is he denied his rights as heir to Casterly Rock, he is humiliated and denied the avenues of advancement normally open to men of his station. All of that occurs on account of his dwarfism.

The fact that character exist who have a worse lot in life doesn't me that we shouldn't have sympathy for Tyrion's immense suffering, nor should we discount the kind of effect that this continual denigration would have on someone. Even a healthy, well-adjusted person would have profound psychological problems after two decades of abuse and rejection. Nobody is saying this excuses Tyrion's murder of Shae, nor his sexual behavior, but much of what people have tried to blame him for in this thread is simply absurd.

[Errant Bard]

Eh...Tyrion never ordered the deaths of children, or betrayed a close friendship.

Well, no character will match another 1:1. Theon didn't kill his own father, his own love, nor does he dream of raping and murdering his own sister.

Of course to betray a close friendship, he would have had to have a close friendship with someone to begin with. Though I suppose raping Tysha or spitting in Jaime's face can count as that, they were the ones coming closest to that status. As for the death of children, if Myrcella or Tommen fall into his hands, I think he will go full Richard III here, it's not the intent that he lacked, it's the opportunity.

Tyrion's far from the best guy in the series, but I don't necessarily think he's a villain. He has less blood on his hands than any number of characters, some of whom have considerable fan bases. A jerk he may be, but just about everyone is guilty of that one. It really doesn't set him apart from much of the cast of characters and it's not a particularly big offense.

Maybe so, and binary classifications are rather dumb too: there is not only "good guys" and "bad guys", but in the end I find him less sympathetic and less prone to do good things than most readers do. He's a jerk, out for himself, and will kill anyone in his way, when he's supposedly doing something good is only when it costs him nothing, or advantages him. That many other characters are worse than him is not really the point, though I already said that Theon, among other is a better man.

He is one of the most abused characters in the series and that abuse has had a profound effect on his development as a person. We should expect him to be damaged, but beyond that, we continue to see the abuse in evidence on the pages of the book.

Which is fairly irrelevant: knowing why you are what you are is interesting, but ultimately it does not change what you are.

He's also done a fair number of good things, which are often overlooked by those seeking to demonize him.

Can you give some examples, and explain how it negates his flaws?

I'm not sure what your "accessory to murder" accusation is about. Care to elaborate?

He knew who tried to kill Bran and why.

[Currawong]

To a large degree Tyrion saw himself as a continual victim because he was one. No matter where he went, what he did, or what he accomplished, Tywin refused to recognize Tyrion's achievements and his rights, even when Tywin appealed to him to stop the madness in King's Landing. The world of Westeros continually reminds Tyrion of his deformity and of his inferiority in their society. The only time that he gets any respect for his intellect and his abilities is at the Wall, and even that is from a small subset of the men of the Night's Watch.

It's unreasonable to expect Tyrion to abandon his rights as the heir to Casterly Rock. He has good reason to try to earn what's his and part of what's so heartbreaking about him is that he keeps trying to win his father's respect while he's at it.

Then get out of Westeros! Make a life somewhere else - come back and claim your inheritance if you still want it, by showing that you have made it elsewhere. Sure, he continues to try to earn Tywin's respect, but surely even Tyrion should have seen it was a useless struggle. It's like he keeps coming back and saying to Tywin: Beat me, beat me - you know I love it.

Yes. Because Jaime Lannister could protect Tyrion from Tywin Lannister. The Tywin Lannister. You greatly overestimate Jaime.

So...Tyrion wanders around in a time where it's dangerous to go on the roads, and hopes that he gets paid off by a Kingsguard knight that has taken a vow of poverty (does Jaime even have any money?), while pissing off his father, who has shown himself to be a terrible monster. To do what? roam the streets as a dwarf?This is totally a full proof plan.

You seem to forget that Tywin himself did not want Tyrion dead - he was planning to send him to the Wall, only he omitted to tell Jaime that. Hence Jaime's actions. If Tyrion had just escaped, Tywin wouldn't have looked too hard for him, and Varys, whom Jaime had persuaded, has clearly managed to out-manouevre Tywin before now. And Jaime himself doesn't seem to lack any money - he's obviously well-supplied with horses, weapons and armour beyond that of a KG knight, and he manages to supply Brienne with a nice little sum to assist her on her quest!

[Sevumar]

Tyrion has baggage, yet when we meet Tyrion, he's a grown man and responsible for his actions. Over the "past 3 years" we have seen Tyrion create problems and suffer the consequences of these self-created problems. With the obvious exclusion of the dagger incident, nearly all of the problems he faces and harm he comes to stem from problems he personally caused.

The biggest and most life-changing event that Tyrion has experienced during the course of the story has been the successful framing of him for the poisoning of Joffrey. Before that, he had engaged in some unsavory political murders and some petty vengeance, but nothing notably worse than most of the other political players in King's Landing at the time, and certainly not as bad as Cersei's later behavior when nobody is present to check her excesses.

Much of the Lannister family drama comes directly from Tywin's continuous maltreatment of Tyrion. From denying him his birthright to accusing him of killing his mother, to saying that the only thing standing between Tyrion and being disowned is some scrap of law, Tywin makes it clear that he's long wished for a way to dispose of Tyrion. This even goes to the point of trying to set him up to die in battle.

When Tyrion finally believes he's on the verge of receiving recognition for his intellectual abilities and scholarship by being sent to King's Landing to clean up Joffrey's mess, Tyrion does it because he craves a chance to show Tywin his worth. Despite the fact that he achieves quite a lot, he's never given any recognition for his efforts in administration or the defense of King's Landing. Again, Tyrion undertook many of these things at great personal risk, even leading sorties himself, and the only reaction of Tywin and Cersei is to continue shitting on him.

He has plenty of reason to be bitter and this goes far beyond his treatment as a child.

[Castel]

Tywin and Tyrion have multiple conversations before he kills his father; the Tysha incident and the "disgrace" it brought to House Lannister is what Tywin always goes back to.

So...you believe that this "disgrace" began when Tyrion started whoring and not when he was born? I mean, Oberyn pretty much tells us that the narrative was that the Lannisters had been cursed for being too proud.

what I've been trying to express is the fact that "dwarfism" has become Tyrion's go-to rationale every time someone is cold to him. It shows a lack of introspection and maturity in his thought process despite having highly developed cognitive skills in other areas.

Fair enough. I personally have seen only one example posted here of that.And even that doesn't prove to me that the man is unaware of his faults. The rest of the time Tyrion seems to be quite right about the impact his dwarfism has on people. But that's my opinion.

I'm not fully certain how that we can trust all of these memories perfectly, as we see events unfold where he attributes the cause to dwarfism despite the fact that we can see dwarfism played no role.

Could you provide an example?

As for the death of children, if Myrcella or Tommen fall into his hands, I think he will go full Richard III here, it's not the intent that he lacked, it's the opportunity.

Did Tyrion ever threaten Myrcella and Tommen? Didn't he go out of his way to protect them?

Though I suppose raping Tysha or spitting in Jaime's face can count as that, they were the ones coming closest to that status

Yes, your father getting you to have sex with what you thought was a whore is totally a betrayal. So is spitting in the face of the brother who helped get you to unknowingly rape your wife. What?

You seem to forget that Tywin himself did not want Tyrion dead - he was planning to send him to the Wall, only he omitted to tell Jaime that

Tywin said this with a crossbolt to is nuts.Totally trustworthy I bet. Also, how is Tyrion supposed to know this before he held said crossbow to his nuts? Tywin has proven that he'll react with disproportionate force when insulted.

Then get out of Westeros! Make a life somewhere else - come back and claim your inheritance if you still want it, by showing that you have made it elsewhere.

Make a life? Make a life being what? A circus freak? And yes, Tywin is totally just going to hand over the gold when he comes back with a new career.

No seriously,how is he supposed to make it? Is he going to be a scribe? How will that endear him to Tywin? There are probably plenty of scribes that aren't repugnant (from Tyrion's perspective) and the whole thing is so hit and miss anyway that I can see why he didn't want to risk his entire livelihood on it.

I'm sorry, I don't buy this romantic dream of a dwarf running around a medieval kingdom without his name and somehow making enough money to get his cold father to love him again.

Sure, he continues to try to earn Tywin's respect, but surely even Tyrion should have seen it was a useless struggle. It's like he keeps coming back and saying to Tywin: Beat me, beat me - you know I love it.

Welcome to abusive relationships.

And Jaime himself doesn't seem to lack any money - he's obviously well-supplied with horses, weapons and armour beyond that of a KG knight, and he manages to supply Brienne with a nice little sum to assist her on her quest!

What makes you think that he buys any of that himself? Also, what makes you think that whoever controls the spigot wouldn't turn it off if they knew Tyrion was on the other end. For that matter,can he provide money enough to live on indefinitely? Jaime has no income as far as we know.