Tyrion: Oh, What To Think

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Tyrion is still a BMF in my book. I didn't view him as going in a downward spiral at all in aDwD. He's definitely a strategist and survivor. I look forward to seeing what he does next.

Because being blind drunk much of the time and committing rape are totes evidence of being on top of stuff, right?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Funny how people are brushing off the false testimony Shae put forward. Slandering someone in a capital case, where the punishment could be painful death, for a good marriage? She deserved what she got.

That wasn't Tyrion's "lowest point."

[Lady Lea]

Right, but this is where you cross the line from not siding with Tyrion to save yourself, to lying about Tyrion to profit yourself, the latter of which I found far less forgiving.

See, Shae went back to Cersei after the trial, and basically asked for her fee (a husband for her lie). If she was motivated purely by fear of Cersei and survival instinct, I feel Shae would have never done this, and perhaps even left King's Landing. Instead she looked for a payday, and to do this she had lied at a trial to provide the smoking gun that would condemn an innocent person to death.

I don't think she deserved death, but she definitely broke a trust she had with Tyrion.

Well Shae was never presented by Martin as a good person - she treats Lollys horribly and talks about wanting to drug Sansa and have sex next to her. I think her testifying against Tyrion was a matter of necessity (she couldn't very well defend him when the Queen had decided she wanted everyone on her side) but her going "above and beyond" for a little extra reward was imo very in-character for her. Tyrion certainly knew her personality (though he perhaps refused to see). So I think her motivation was two-fold, and they were not mutually exclusive.

[Castel]

Right, but this is where you cross the line from not siding with Tyrion to save yourself, to lying about Tyrion to profit yourself, the latter of which I found far less forgiving.

See, Shae went back to Cersei after the trial, and basically asked for her fee (a husband for her lie). If she was motivated purely by fear of Cersei and survival instinct, I feel Shae would have never done this, and perhaps even left King's Landing. Instead she looked for a payday, and to do this she had lied at a trial to provide the smoking gun that would condemn an innocent person to death.

I don't think she deserved death, but she definitely broke a trust she had with Tyrion.

I assume that she knew that she would have had to give up Tyrion and decided that she would get something out of it. It's cold, but it's the kind of pragmatic thinking I expect from someone in that situation.

[franko99]

Tyrion was expecting to die for his alleged role in Joffrey's murder. His brother turns up and gives him the gift of life and freedom ... but it is Tyrion who absolutely insists that he wants to know what Jaime 'owes' him, despite Jaime's warning. And then he not only flips out at Jaime, but he goes off and murders his father and Shae. For me, that showed how underneath it he was basically a nasty and petty little man in so many respects, driven all along by little boy 'I want what is MINE, Daddy' thoughts, and not actually getting on with his own life. What was to stop him going to Oldtown and studying when he came of age? Or travelling? Just that Big Daddy Twyin wouldn't have paid the bills? Being a younger son didn't stop Gerion Lannister going off on a quest, and Gerion was supposedly Tyrion's favourite uncle, who even encouraged him. Tyrion liked all the privileges of being a Lannister and having plenty of money, and the safety net of knowing that his father would never let him get into such a mess that he would bring total disgrace on the family. But he wasn't prepared to cut the apron strings for himself. Sure, being a dwarf made it very hard - but if Tyrion was as capable and clever as supposedly he was / is, then he would have found a way. He's driven by money and envy, and "I want, I want".

ETA: I liked Tyrion to start with, even sympathised in many respects, and I enjoyed his wit. But as the books went on, I came to see how ruthless, dark and nasty he really is underneath all of that outer jesting and cleverness. Aunt Genna was right - Tyrion is definitely Tywin's 'true' son.

I believe Tytos paid for all of Gerions journeys, and later Tywin (he seems like he ws good to his brothers, and Gerion probably has some source of gold) he travel with Lannister money, when Tyrion ask his father, Tywin refuse, Tywin was a complete asshole. Yet I agree with the rest. What stop Tyrion to become a maestre, or become a merchant in the free cities (he even think about it in ASOS, going with sansa to Braavos)? Only the fact that he will stop enjoy the life and benefits of a Lannister if he did...

[Full-Faced Braavosi]

I assume that she knew that she would have had to give up Tyrion and decided that she would get something out of it. It's cold, but it's the kind of pragmatic thinking I expect from someone in that situation.

Sure, why not get some blood money after you wack somebody?

Pragmatism =/= morality.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Sure, why not get some blood money after you wack somebody?

Pragmatism =/= morality.

The way I see it, they both used each other throughout the relationship. And then they both tried to kill each other, but Tyrion succeeded where Shae failed

[The Mother of The Others]

Hey, if he can get the Essos mess figured out so it's not a total clusterfuck for another whole book, he'll be huge. The last poll showed that Essos has a lower approval rating than congress. We'll be metaphysically forced to like him again if he gets the Essos plot out of neutral gear. Subliminally we'll have no choice in the matter. What's weird is Daenerys might not be around to "listen", if she's off at Vaes getting the Dothraki to all fall into line. So..... Tyrion helps fill power vacuum? One possible path, it'd avoid Daynerys having to recognize him and raise him up as an advisor becauese he'd already be there waiting with the old man Selmy when she gets back.

[Lady Lea]

Funny how people are brushing off the false testimony Shae put forward. Slandering someone in a capital case, where the punishment could be painful death, for a good marriage? She deserved what she got.

That wasn't Tyrion's "lowest point."

As much as "a good marriage" might sound silly to us modern readers, it really was a big deal to her. She was a whore, a peasant, a nobody from nowhere with no useful skills (other than whoring). What would she do when she was too old to do that? So a good marriage meant, if effect, class ascention, it meant she would be secure for life AND never have to whore again. Sounds like a really good reward to me.

Perjury is of course a very serious crime, especially when the defendant might face capital punishment, but Shae did not deserve to be murdered.

[Ramsay Gimp]

As much as "a good marriage" might sound silly to us modern readers, it really was a big deal to her. She was a whore, a peasant, a nobody from nowhere with no useful skills (other than whoring). What would she do when she was too old to do that? So a good marriage meant, if effect, class ascention, it meant she would be secure for life AND never have to whore again. Sounds like a really good reward to me.

Perjury is of course a very serious crime, especially when the defendant might face capital punishment, but Shae did not deserve to be murdered.

My point was that she committed perjury in a capital case for a material reward. Oh, she wants to ascend class? I don't give a fuck, it doesn't justify helping someone get executed. That makes her lower than a whore. I don't think prejury merits the death penalty either in our current justice system, but I don't blame Tyrion at all for doing what he did. Of course, banging Tywin was ice on the cake (assuming Varys didn't plant her there)

[tsunad]

His brother turns up and gives him the gift of life and freedom ... but it is Tyrion who absolutely insists that he wants to know what Jaime 'owes' him, despite Jaime's warning. And then he not only flips out at Jaime, but he goes off and murders his father and Shae. For me, that showed how underneath it he was basically a nasty and petty little man in so many respects, driven all along by little boy 'I want what is MINE, Daddy' thoughts, and not actually getting on with his own life.

IMO, this is due to Tyrion's screwed up attitudes about women. His first wife was a whore, or so he thought, and the only reason she was with him was for his money. Tyrion generalized this to all women - and in the world of Ice and Fire, with its unenlightened attitudes, an ugly dwarf could find a lot of reinforcing evidence of this. Note also that Tyrion doesn't appear to be an alcoholic before Tysha. Tyrion doesn't have a madonna/whore complex, he just has a whore/whore complex. Then, despite what Tyrion thinks, he starts believing that Shae has genuine feeling for him. Even though he appears to warn himself what will happen - note how he starts to obsess about Tysha in the third book - as if reminding himself (maybe subconsciously) that women, despite what they say, are all whores - or perhaps reminding himself that even if the love is fake, it's a lie worth living.

Joffrey dies, Shae turns and lies to him, and it confirms everything he thought - women are only interested in him as a means to get things - Shae would be his whore for his coin, then abandon him for further benefit. Jaime comes along and reveals that the first woman he truly loved (as far as the reader knows) wasn't a whore at all. Tysha went from being a whore to being an angel. When compared to her, Shae was cast further into evil. So Tyrion killed her, and his father. Both betrayed him, and both, in their own way, betrayed the ideal of Tysha - Shae for being what Tyrion thought Tysha was, and Tywin for his part in the lie over Tysha.

Explaining it doesn't make Tyrion good. It doesn't make Tyrion evil either. It does make Tyrion a more complex character than many we find in fantasy.

Sure, why not get some blood money after you wack somebody?

Pragmatism =/= morality.

That's my reading of Shae. She's a woman in a world where that's held against you, and what's worse is that she's a whore - quite low on the social ladder. Her personality is shaped by this - rather callous to us, but typical of someone in her position. And she knows what is in store for her: Her beauty will fade with time. She has no future. She must grab everything she can hold.

[Lady Lea]

My point was that she committed perjury in a capital case for a material reward. Oh, she wants to ascend class? I don't give a fuck, it doesn't justify helping someone get executed. That makes her lower than a whore. I don't think prejury merits the death penalty either in our current justice system, but I don't blame Tyrion at all for doing what he did. Of course, banging Tywin was ice on the cake (assuming Varys didn't plant her there)

So should Tyrion murder everyone who lied in his trial or just Shae because she was the only one we know got a reward over her testimony?

She would have to testify either way, her getting a reward over it is neither here nor there. Or should she tell the truth and be killed (or seen as an accomplice) over a guy who was nothing but her employer, and one who hit her at that?

[Ramsay Gimp]

So should Tyrion murder everyone who lied in his trial or just Shae because she was the only one we know got a reward over her testimony?

Unless there is evidence they were coerced, yes. But who else lied? I remember a lot of people giving unflattering testimony, but very few lies until Shae appeared.

She would have to testify either way, her getting a reward over it is neither here nor there. Or should she tell the truth and be killed (or seen as an accomplice) over a guy who was nothing but her employer, and one who hit her at that?

How would she automatically be seen as an accomplice? Everyone at the trial, especially those who hate him and think he's guilty, are aware of Tyrion's cunning and wit. Only a fool would share his plans for regicide with his whore, and Tyrion is not a fool

[Lady Lea]

Unless there is evidence they were coerced, yes. Though who else lied? I remember a lot of people giving unflattering testimony, but very few lies until Shae appeared.

Yes? Really? Everyone should be murdered? I mean, I have no words.

How would she automatically be seen as an accomplice? Everyone at the trial, especially those who hate him and think he's guilty, are aware of Tyrion's cunning and wit. Only a fool would share his plans for regicide with his whore, and Tyrion is not a fool

Right, because Cersei would most definitely give her the benefit of the doubt.

[Sevumar]

So should Tyrion murder everyone who lied in his trial or just Shae because she was the only one we know got a reward over her testimony?

Readers know they can count on Tyrion to be brutally effective at disposing of those who have the power to harm or embarrass him, those who stand in his way, or those who have wronged him. There are a couple of notable exceptions, but Tyrion is absolutely his father's son in that regard. He is a man who yearns for power and respect, a man who destroys those (within his power to do so) who do not give him what he believes he has earned. Tyrion's treatment at the hands of his family and his social peers has only caused him to double down on this trait.

I think his time in captivity is meant to help transform him into a person more capable of empathy for others outside of himself. We can also hope that perhaps his tendency to speak unwisely has been tempered as well. His treatment of Penny and Jorah shows us that transformation as it happens. He has never been the most powerful nor the most respectable man at the table, and being a slave has put him in a position where it's much harder to use his talent for psychological bullying to get his way. As Dance comes to a close, he seems to have found a path out of that situation and time will tell whether he manages to land on his feet in Dany's court.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Yes? Really? Everyone should be murdered? I mean, I have no words.

Right, because Cersei would most definitely give her the benefit of the doubt.

A story arc where Tyrion returned and tracked down those who screwed him at the trial would be awesome. I don't see how that's so horrifying. Why do you have such pity for those who lie in capital cases? And you haven't answered who else actually lied at his trial.

Besides, after what she pulled at the trial there is no way Tyrion could trust her not to alert the guards or somehow impede his escape once he found her in bed. Killing her was pre-emptive

[DraculaAD1972]

Tyrion is a good man who has done questionable things. A tragic hero who deserves to win in the end.

Shae was a manipulative bint who did not deserve to be murdered however.

[Lady Lea]

A story arc where Tyrion returned and tracked down those who screwed him at the trial would be awesome. I don't see how that's so horrifying. Why do you have such pity for those who lie in capital cases? And you haven't answered who else actually lied at his trial.

Besides, after what she pulled at the trial there is no way Tyrion could trust her not to alert the guards or somehow impede his escape once he found her in bed. Killing her was pre-emptive

How about a story arc where one of Tysha's brothers track him down and kill him? Or that slave girl he raped? Still awesome?

People who lied: Osmund Kettleblack, Pycelle, Taena Merryweather.

Now her murder was preemptive. A thousand and one uses, I see.

[DraculaAD1972]

Killing Shae seemed necessary from Tyrion's perspective. Revenge and the need to silence her made it inevitable. Horrible but inevitable.

[Ramsay Gimp]

How about a story arc where one of Tysha's brothers track him down and kill him? Or that slave girl he raped? Still awesome?

It wouldn't be awesome, since I don't care about their characters. But it might be justified (certainly if the slave or Tysha killed him as part of an escape, it would be). I think castration would be more appropriate for rape, though. Remember, we're talking a medieval setting here

People who lied: Osmund Kettleblack, Pycelle, Taena Merryweather.

All such upstanding honorable folks. You would shed a tear if Tyrion got his vengeance on them?

Now her murder was preemptive. A thousand and one uses, I see.

So she can try to kill Tyrion to (supposedly, though we never actually hear the threat) save her own ass, but Tyrion can't kill her to save his?