Finding bits of LOTR influences in ASOIAF

[mrunderhill]

Thranduil, Thorin, Lobelia? We're not discussing Tolkien's whole legendarium, just LOTR. The Silmarillion and such are a different question, though I would still say they adhere primarily to black and white morality. I would have to explain things a bit further than I would for LOTR to justify that, though.

Lobelia is in LOTR and the other two play a part a big part in the lead up to the War of the Ring. How is Maedhros or even Maglor primarily a black of white character? Feanor too. Even Galadriel is not so very white herself, withouth discussing Celebrimbor. Or the whole history of the Numenoreans.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Lobelia is in LOTR and the other two play a part a big part in the lead up to the War of the Ring. How is Maedhros or even Maglor primarily a black of white character? Feanor too. Even Galadriel is not so very white herself, withouth discussing Celebrimbor. Or the whole history of the Numenoreans.

Or the history of the Noldor.

[mrunderhill]

The reason why I don't find that a compelling moral question is because the answer is hammered home repeatedly: they shouldn't use the ring. There is never any moral doubt about that. The correct course of action is unambiguous and any sliding on that point is presented as a bad thing.

Have you thought about why they should not use the Ring? There is moral doubt over it, because the likes of Galadriel, Boromir and Denethor believe it should be used. Saruman believes the same. Galadriel is able to change her mind, but the other three are never completely free from it.

Even Gimli and Legolas are beginning to change their minds slightly. Instead of keeping their eyes on the destroying the Ring, they vote to take it to Minas Tirith.

Nor would Gandalf with the Ring become some evil dark lord like Sauron. He would be more like a strange cross between Stannis and Tywin. He would be a "just and wise" ruler.

EDIT

The racism of the Numenoreans and the Rohirrim is pretty dickish too. The Dundlendings have pretty valid reasons for fighting against them.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Not to mention both Turin and Jaime slew an evil dragon.

That means that Jaime will kill himself?

[The Pain Yak]

No we are discussing all of them not just Lotr

Tolkien's work contains a number of 'grey' characters, especially in the Silmarillion, but his work itself is not at all grey. That is to say, characters may do bad things out of good intentions, but there is never the slightest ambivalence when those things are bad. We are told in no uncertain terms when an action is wrong.

We'll take Feanor as our example, since I've seen him cited most often as 'grey' in Tolkien. His vow to regain the silmarils is not presented as questionable; it's presented as bad. He is directly described as being tainted by Morgoth in taking this course of action and everything related to that action results in tragedy for him and others. That he opposes Morgoth and has a legitimate grievance makes him a greyer character. It does not mean he lives in a grey world.

Likewise, the Numenoreans. When they find themselves influenced by Sauron to attacking Valinor, it is bad. There is no ambiguity about it. We know they're doing the wrong thing and we know it because Tolkien isn't shy in telling us they're doing the wrong thing.

When evil is done, tragedy results. When good is done, things work out for the best. In its essence, LOTR is Catholic in its morality, and whatever else may be said about it, Catholicism isn't meant to be ambiguous about right and wrong.

Contrast that to SoIaF. Ned Stark refuses to make a move against Cersei as Robert lays dying, as he does not want to dishonor Robert's memory by dragging frightened children from their beds. He even warns Cersei, so as to spare the children Robert's wrath. As a consequence of the desire to prevent murdered children, Ned Stark loses his head, virtually his entire family is destroyed, and the Seven Kingdoms plunge into a civil war which has likely killed tens of thousands of people.

Did he do the right thing in not telling Robert? Did he do the right thing in attempting to protect two innocent children (we're not counting Joffrey), even at tremendous risk to himself and his family? Or would he have done the right thing if he had told Robert and seen Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella's heads mounted atop the city gate?

See the difference?

[The Pain Yak]

Have you thought about why they should not use the Ring? There is moral doubt over it, because the likes of Galadriel, Boromir and Denethor believe it should be used. Saruman believes the same. Galadriel is able to change her mind, but the other three are never completely free from it.

All of the characters named are seduced by the ring. Being tempted to vice does not make said vice an alternate virtue, worthy of moral consideration. Of the above four, only Galadriel ultimately finds the will to resist the ring's influence, whereas Boromir goes to his grave regretting what he did and Denethor dies a madman, trying to burn his own son alive. And Saruman is...well, Saruman.

[mrunderhill]

Tolkien's work contains a number of 'grey' characters, especially in the Silmarillion, but his work itself is not at all grey. That is to say, characters may do bad things out of good intentions, but there is never the slightest ambivalence when those things are bad. We are told in no uncertain terms when an action is wrong.

We'll take Feanor as our example, since I've seen him cited most often as 'grey' in Tolkien. His vow to regain the silmarils is not presented as questionable; it's presented as bad. He is directly described as being tainted by Morgoth in taking this course of action and everything related to that action results in tragedy for him and others. That he opposes Morgoth and has a legitimate grievance makes him a greyer character. It does not mean he lives in a grey world.

All the Noldor are described as being tainted by Morgoth and you should look at the quote by Feanor, where he says even if they all die, the Noldor shall accomplish great deeds. Being tainted is a perfect example of being grey. As for his fight with Fingolfin, I actually tend to support Feanor here. Fingolfin is trying to usurp his brother's place at his side. The question his sons face of when you must break an oath is a grey one. Should you keep an oath even if it means you must kill innocent people?

Likewise, the Numenoreans. When they find themselves influenced by Sauron to attacking Valinor, it is bad. There is no ambiguity about it. We know they're doing the wrong thing and we know it because Tolkien isn't shy in telling us they're doing the wrong thing.

Of course attacking Sauron is wrong, but that is right at the end. How about when they first returned to Middle Earth to teach men: agriculture, industry and morals? Were they wrong then? How about when they first starting chopping down the trees so they could raise fleets to defeat Sauron? Was that wrong? How about when they started mowing down the misguided men, who thought for Sauron? How about when they started making themselves Kings of Men. They were taking over different groups of people by force, but life under the Numenoreans would have been several times better than life under other men?

How about when they were scared and worried about death? Even Arwen at the end understands their struggle.

When evil is done, tragedy results. When good is done, things work out for the best. In its essence, LOTR is Catholic in its morality, and whatever else may be said about it, Catholicism isn't meant to be ambiguous about right and wrong.

LOTR is Catholic in it's morality, but the SIlmarillion takes place in a very different world. Hurin is honourable, heroic and brave. Look at what befalls him? Look at the best of friends Beleg? You cannot get a better man than Beleg, but in the end he is killed by the man, whom he loved the most. There are many other examples. Not to mention for thousands of years Sauron rules most of the world.

Contrast that to SoIaF. Ned Stark refuses to make a move against Cersei as Robert lays dying, as he does not want to dishonor Robert's memory by dragging frightened children from their beds. He even warns Cersei, so as to spare the children Robert's wrath. As a consequence of the desire to prevent murdered children, Ned Stark loses his head, virtually his entire family is destroyed, and the Seven Kingdoms plunge into a civil war which has likely killed tens of thousands of people.

Ned is an idiot. However, just look throughout the LOTR history to find many heroic men causing trouble. Look at the kinstrife in Gondor. Because one Prince decided to marry a foreigner, the racist Numenoreans started a civil war. I have already given the examples of Hurin, Beleg and Finrond, who are great men.

Did he do the right thing in not telling Robert? Did he do the right thing in attempting to protect two innocent children (we're not counting Joffrey), even at tremendous risk to himself and his family? Or would he have done the right thing if he had told Robert and seen Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella's heads mounted atop the city gate?

Yes we know he did not do the right thing in telling Robert. Ned constantly compromised his honour for his family. Compare that to Turin's argument about building the bridge. Aldarion's argument with Erendis.

See the difference?

No, if I am honest Tolkien, though Catholic has more complex issues. He delves into racism, colonialism, does the "greater good" exist or not? For instance how about the treatment of orcs. The orcs are digusting, vile creatures, but they are still under the "Laws" the West must observe. The West are not supposed to torture or execute them when captured, but it's a law they break often.

[mrunderhill]

All of the characters named are seduced by the ring. Being tempted to vice does not make said vice an alternate virtue, worthy of moral consideration. Of the above four, only Galadriel ultimately finds the will to resist the ring's influence, whereas Boromir goes to his grave regretting what he did and Denethor dies a madman, trying to burn his own son alive. And Saruman is...well, Saruman.

No they are not seduced by the ring. The Ring is not just some vice. Denethor has never come into contact with the Ring and either has Saruman. Galadriel up until her temptation had not come into contact with the Ring either. Denethor makes a decision, that he would rather use the Ring and defeat Sauron, than see Gondor fall. In victory Denethor plans to become a tyrant with or without the Ring. Galadriel is too proud to humble herself and go back to Valinor.

As for Boromir he is the only one of the four, who is really seduced.

How about the moral question of making the Rings? Elrond and Gil-galad reject the Sauron, but Celebrimbor and possibly even Galadriel accept him in.

[Ygrain]

When evil is done, tragedy results. When good is done, things work out for the best. In its essence, LOTR is Catholic in its morality, and whatever else may be said about it, Catholicism isn't meant to be ambiguous about right and wrong.

First, I don't think that LOTR should be considered separately from Silmarillion, they are part of a single mythology.

Second, do the Beleriand wars against Morgoth count as good or evil? Because ever since Dagor Bragollach, tragedy follows upon tragedy. Or Túrin, the very epitome of tragedy despite his best intentions (and, BTW, a pretty grey character in a lot of his actions)

As Galadriel was mentioned above: even from her brief description in LOTR, further confirmed by Silmarillion, it is clear that she is not immune to the lure of power. Refusing the Ring costs her a lot of willpower and strain, and the outcome was not clear before she was put to the test. Add to it the description of her that Sam gives Faramir from which he concludes that she is dangerous, and the way she messes with the Fellowship's minds when testing their loyalty (and it has been argued that it was actually her messing which set Boromir off) - although she is not evil, there is greed for power in her, pride and ruthlessness.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No they are not seduced by the ring. The Ring is not just some vice. Denethor has never come into contact with the Ring and either has Saruman. Galadriel up until her temptation had not come into contact with the Ring either. Denethor makes a decision, that he would rather use the Ring and defeat Sauron, than see Gondor fall. In victory Denethor plans to become a tyrant with or without the Ring. Galadriel is too proud to humble herself and go back to Valinor.

:agree: the ring wasn't the only evil. People were evil and had done some greyish things.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I believe Martin likes LOTR and the beauty of its details, but the story is not at all similar.. Just because there are some details alike doesn't mean it influences in scenario..Imo Martin's whole idea of writing these books are breaking the prejudge on "good side - bad side" stuff.. But LOTR is full of it...

I think Martin's initial goal was to make a much more complicated and less language based Lord of the Rings. The thing Martin didn't like about Lord of the Rings is it's near absolutism in good and evil and the fact that sex wasn't really a part of the universe. So basically Martin took Middle Earth, got rid of the simplified evil, and added more realistic conflict between men, and the universe evolved from there. Basically every fictional world has Tolkein to thank for it, since before then they all had some connection to our own world. GRRM would be the first to tell you that LOTR was a heavy inspiration for ASOIAF. I just find it laughable when fans of this series try to put down LOTR, when GRRM himself says they're among his favorite novels.

[Fire Eater]

Denethor, having gone mad, burning himself and his son on a pyre by time the rightful king, Aragorn arrived. Aerys tried to do the same thing with KL, and Cersei will succeed where Aerys failed in burning KL in a giant pyre by the time Jon arrives.

[Morienthar]

There is a bit of a parallel more than an influence,It is here for scrutiny.

The Tragedy at Summerhall is the Ring in ASoIaF and it should appear in a prequel.

It is generally accepted as the start of Aery's madness which lead to all the major events of the south and east we see in the books.

[Queen of Whores]

I was rereading The Fellowship of the Ring, and this speech by Aragorn during the Council of Elrond struck me as particularly reminiscent of the Night's Watch:

'If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, we have played another part. Many evil things there are that your strong walls and bright swords do not stay. You know little of the lands beyond your bounds. Peace and freedom, do you say? The North would have known them little but for us. Fear would have destroyed them. But when dark things come for their houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods, they fly from us. What roads would any dare tread, what safety would there be in quiet lands, or in the homes of simple men at night, if the Dunedain were asleep, or were all gone into the grave? And yet less thanks have we than you. Travellers scowl at us, and countrymen give us scornful names. "Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise.'

I thought this was quite a powerful passage that shows the sacrifice these men make, and can also be applied to the men of the Night's Watch.

[mrunderhill]

I was rereading The Fellowship of the Ring, and this speech by Aragorn during the Council of Elrond struck me as particularly reminiscent of the Night's Watch:

'If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, we have played another part. Many evil things there are that your strong walls and bright swords do not stay. You know little of the lands beyond your bounds. Peace and freedom, do you say? The North would have known them little but for us. Fear would have destroyed them. But when dark things come for their houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods, they fly from us. What roads would any dare tread, what safety would there be in quiet lands, or in the homes of simple men at night, if the Dunedain were asleep, or were all gone into the grave? And yet less thanks have we than you. Travellers scowl at us, and countrymen give us scornful names. "Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise.'

I thought this was quite a powerful passage that shows the sacrifice these men make, and can also be applied to the men of the Night's Watch.

Always thought the Night's Watch was a combination of the FFL and the Northern Rangers. Aragorn could be said to have had the experiences of every wannabe king in Westeros.

[Fire Eater]

Dany will bringing Dothraki and corsairs with her in a form of a reference to Sauron. The Dothraki are skilled archers and horsemen like the Haradrim, and Gerion Lannister is a corsair like the corsairs of Umbar.

[Frey family reunion]

I've been mulling over a possible reference to LOTR albeit a very vague one. Is it possible that Jojen/Meera/Hodor are serving as Bran's Gollum (mainly Jojen)? Jojen serves as Bran's guide, as Gollum was Frodo's. Jojen has some inkling as to Bran's powers and burdens as Gollum had with Frodo's addiction to the ring. Jojen starts to show some envy towards Bran's ability to become a Greenseer while Gollum's envy towards Frodo possessing the ring was much more obvious. Meera is a fisherman as was Gollum before he found the ring. Meera references the knights that are found under the Neck while Gollum takes Frodo past the Dead Marshes where what appears to be dead warriors lie under the waters.

Finally Gollum is named after the sound he makes, while Hodor is likewise named after the word he repeats.

[Bartimus Stone]

The Reeds sound like Hobbits or elves.

[James Sucellus]

ASOIAF is largely a subversion of, and answer to, LOTR's take on the fantasy genre. Particularly morality.

So LOTR's biggest influence is by being the thing GRRM tries his best to subvert. In the process, he's made what will likely be seen as the second best fantasy series behind Tolkien's works. Well played.

[Dragonmag170]

I've always seen the parallels.

The most obvious one, I think, is Samwell Tarley, aka "Sam"