R+L=J v.40

[MtnLion]

Technically the term is "fait accompli." I only bring this up because, leaving aside the lack of gender agreement between the two words, the term you used technically means "completed party," which made me laugh a little bit. :)

Kind of the intention. ;)

[Dragonfish]

Kind of the intention. ;)

Should've spelled it "fête accomplie," then. ;)

[Budj]

Hi everyone. Figured I'd try to add some fresh blood to those who might be tired and all. Quick background. December '12 GoT s1+s2 X2 then 5 books were read because I couldn't wait to four months for S3 of GoTs.

so long story short before finishing the books, I'd thought R+L=J plus a few other predictions(like Arya joining the FM) that turned out to be true, and some that turned out not to be true.

I've read this thread since v38 before joining the forum. I'm sure I probably can't add much to anything that has been throw out here before but I figured why not.

There's one thing I noticed people were forgetting about Ned's journey of returning the sword and going home. Did he not also return a horse to the widow, Lady Dustin? I guess that's not too much out of the way so it doesn't add too much time to the trip.

It has been brought out a bit under various circumstances. What were you thinking about it in relation to it?

[MtnLion]

Should've spelled it "fête accomplie," then. ;)

Yes, but I thought if anyone got wise they would figure that missing accent out, and I think the first draft was accomplis. ;)

ETA: My French is very bad and disused, though.

[Dragonfish]

Yes, but I thought if anyone got wise they would figure that missing accent out

Clearly you figured wrong. ;)

and I think the first draft was accomplis. ;)

Not sure what you mean, here. What first draft are you talking about, and what does the masculine plural "accomplis" have to do with anything?

Also, here is the requisite emoticon, because that is apparently how we now end our replies to each other: ;)

[Techelles]

Not sure what you mean, here. What first draft are you talking about, and what does the masculine plural "accomplis" have to do with anything?

More importantly, what does this have to do with R+L=J?

[Dragonfish]

More importantly, what does this have to do with R+L=J?

Quiet, you. You cannot begin to grasp the importance of the relationship between French orthography and R+L=J.

[Ser Creighton]

If Jon is not present, why would the Kingsguard stay and not go to guard Viserys? Why would these highly respected guys fight to the death?

Now, when Lyanna has the fever take her, what falls from her hand? Jon is the blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice filling the air with sweetness. Jon is at the tower, Jon is Lyanna's son. Rhaegar is his father, and Lyanna was married to him. There is no other way that the Kingsguard behave as they do, and Jon gets to the Wall.

Of course, you need not believe it, but there it is.

Not saying Jon is not their kid, just saying I don't think he was there. Why were they guarding Lyanna? Cause R told them too. Why did they fight to the death? They are the KG, the king is dead, that's actually there job. You got RT dead, and his best friend is standing front of you. You don't Arthur has a problem with his best friend getting killed? You think the KG is happy about RT being dead, losing the war, and the king being murdered. Reread what they said to Ned those are not happy guys. That's the don't #### with us crew.

Not to mention, Wylla is a wet nurse right? Maybe she is there maybe she isn't. But I would think RT would want a Measter there to deliver his kid. Arthur could snap his fingers and get a Measter. There hideout is not so secret that they supposedly had a nurse, Hightower had no problem finding, over the 8-10 months they would have been their they would need food and supplies on a regular basis.

No lets say Lyanna had Jon there, and when Ned finds her she is bleeding out right. So when the fight started she was giving birth. She only screamed once. A 16 year old girl is giving birth and she screams once, a birth that is killing her. Okay so maybe she passes out, a wet nurse did that delivery? Did the nurse cut Jon out? If so why no mention of wounds. The bed is covered in blood.

Not to mention the KG is getting in a fight with Ned while she is in labor? Ned does not even try to talk to them about his sister. If that's the convo, in order for the whole plot to work, everyone has to become an idiot. I am talking from day one. None of it makes much sense.

[Ser Leftwich]

What prompted Rhaegar's actions concerning the "kidnapping?"

Was he pressed for time because of prophecy?

Was he pressed for time because Lyanna was going to have to get married?

Was it just a time that the "kidnapping" would work?

Was he pressed for time because Brandon was getting married?

Thoughts?

Also, a completed party would be the same as winning a party, right? ;)

[Dr. Pepper]

Not saying Jon is not their kid, just saying I don't think he was there.

Why wouldn't he be there?

There hideout is not so secret that they supposedly had a nurse, Hightower had no problem finding, over the 8-10 months they would have been their they would need food and supplies on a regular basis.

I don't think it's a matter of it being super hidden. It's in the middle of a heavily travelled pass after all. It seems more a matter of being a place where no one would think to look for them.

No lets say Lyanna had Jon there, and when Ned finds her she is bleeding out right. So when the fight started she was giving birth. She only screamed once. A 16 year old girl is giving birth and she screams once, a birth that is killing her. Okay so maybe she passes out, a wet nurse did that delivery? Did the nurse cut Jon out? If so why no mention of wounds. The bed is covered in blood.

No, she wasn't bleeding out. She has a fever. She was lying in her bed of blood. Bed of blood is a figure of speech to refer to child birth. Child birth is everything, from the start of labor pains, to the recovery (or death) of mother and child. For example, Dany's bed of blood lasted from the moment she falls over with contractions to the when she finally recovers.

None of it makes much sense.

I think it doesn't make much sense to you because you are trying to make it more difficult than necessary.

[Jon Icefyre]

Not saying Jon is not their kid, just saying I don't think he was there. Why were they guarding Lyanna? Cause R told them too. Why did they fight to the death? They are the KG, the king is dead, that's actually there job. You got RT dead, and his best friend is standing front of you. You don't Arthur has a problem with his best friend getting killed? You think the KG is happy about RT being dead, losing the war, and the king being murdered. Reread what they said to Ned those are not happy guys. That's the don't #### with us crew.

Not to mention, Wylla is a wet nurse right? Maybe she is there maybe she isn't. But I would think RT would want a Measter there to deliver his kid. Arthur could snap his fingers and get a Measter. There hideout is not so secret that they supposedly had a nurse, Hightower had no problem finding, over the 8-10 months they would have been their they would need food and supplies on a regular basis.

No lets say Lyanna had Jon there, and when Ned finds her she is bleeding out right. So when the fight started she was giving birth. She only screamed once. A 16 year old girl is giving birth and she screams once, a birth that is killing her. Okay so maybe she passes out, a wet nurse did that delivery? Did the nurse cut Jon out? If so why no mention of wounds. The bed is covered in blood.

Not to mention the KG is getting in a fight with Ned while she is in labor? Ned does not even try to talk to them about his sister. If that's the convo, in order for the whole plot to work, everyone has to become an idiot. I am talking from day one. None of it makes much sense.

Sorry I'm gonna have to agree with MtnLion on this one. I think his argument of why the kg would be there is a lot stronger than your "They were just simply following a dead Rhaegar's orders and were pissed about his death" argument. Those three kg were the last left with Ser Barristan injured/captured and Darry being with Dany and Viserys. Rhaegar wasn't a stupid man by any means and if he would have hid Jon somehwere else I'm sure he would have sent at least 1 KG with Jon to protect his son. But he didn't because those kg were at the TOJ which leads most to suspect that's aslo where Jon was. There's just no way Rhaegar doesn't leave at least one kg with his newborn son when he himself cannot be there to protect Jon. Regardless of how discrete Rhaegar wanted to be he's not foolish enough to not leave at least one capable warrior to defend his son.

[Ser Leftwich]

Sorry I'm gonna have to agree with MtnLion on this one. I think his argument of why the kg would be there is a lot stronger than your "They were just simply following a dead Rhaegar's orders and were pissed about his death" argument. Those three kg were the last left with Ser Barristan injured/captured and Darry being with Dany and Viserys. Rhaegar wasn't a stupid man by any means and if he would have hid Jon somehwere else I'm sure he would have sent at least 1 KG with Jon to protect his son. But he didn't because those kg were at the TOJ which leads most to suspect that's aslo where Jon was. There's just no way Rhaegar doesn't leave at least one kg with his newborn son when he himself cannot be there to protect Jon. Regardless of how discrete Rhaegar wanted to be he's not foolish enough to not leave at least one capable warrior to defend his son.

Also have to go with MtnLion on this one.

In the conversation that Jaime recalls, Rhaegar expected to win and come back. No reason to believe he did not expect to go back to pick up Lyanna and co after the battle with Robert. This goes into the question of how much forethought did Rhaegar put in his orders. It can become farcical very quickly.

Rhaegar: If a son is born, Arthur, take him to Starfall and the other two come back to KL.

Rhaegar: Guards, make sure the prince doesn't leave this room until I come and get him.

Arthur: Not to leave the room... even if you come and get him.

Oswell: (hiccup)

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

It has been brought out a bit under various circumstances. What were you thinking about it in relation to it?

Just trying to re-trace Ned's steps home and all. Returns a sword and a horse. I mean there's so much emphasis put into his journey through RR(because it's more critical to the time-line obviously) but we might as well take all the info about his journey home the books give us as well.

[Roza Ahai]

Those three kg were the last left with Ser Barristan injured/captured and Darry being with Dany and Viserys.

Willian Darry was not KG, he was a brother of Jonothor Darry KG killed on Trident. Viserys and Dany did not have any KGs. 3 KGs were with Rhaegar, Darry and Martell died on Trident, Selmi injured, Jaime was in KL, and 3 KGs were present at ToJ.

[Techelles]

Not saying Jon is not their kid, just saying I don't think he was there. Why were they guarding Lyanna? Cause R told them too.

So why aren't they with Jon? Why would Rhaegar order three knights of the kingsguard to watch over Lyanna at all costs, but not to worry about the helpless baby, his son, and quite possibly their king? It couldn't be a feint to draw attention away from Jon's actual location, because you have already stressed repeatedly that you don't think secrecy was important. I disagree with that entirely, as you know, for all the reasons I've been stating over the past couple days.

Why did they fight to the death? They are the KG, the king is dead, that's actually there job.

I thought their job was to protect the king. If Jon is Rhaegar's son, that's what they're doing.

Not to mention, Wylla is a wet nurse right? Maybe she is there maybe she isn't. But I would think RT would want a Measter there to deliver his kid. Arthur could snap his fingers and get a Measter. There hideout is not so secret that they supposedly had a nurse, Hightower had no problem finding, over the 8-10 months they would have been their they would need food and supplies on a regular basis.

1) Wylla could easily have been a midwife, too.

2) I expect Hightower knew where to look.

3) I don't think getting supplies would be that difficult. Maybe they were even sent over periodically from Starfall. Lots of possible answers here, and none of them makes or breaks the case for...well, anything.

Now lets say Lyanna had Jon there, and when Ned finds her she is bleeding out right. So when the fight started she was giving birth. She only screamed once. A 16 year old girl is giving birth and she screams once, a birth that is killing her. Okay so maybe she passes out, a wet nurse did that delivery? Did the nurse cut Jon out? If so why no mention of wounds. The bed is covered in blood.

Dr. Pepper explained the "bed of blood" line perfectly. Nowhere does the book say the bed is "covered." Also, births are bloody even without any cutting and wounds.

I don't think analyzing the number of Lyanna's screams is going to produce any new insights.

Not to mention the KG is getting in a fight with Ned while she is in labor? Ned does not even try to talk to them about his sister. If that's the convo, in order for the whole plot to work, everyone has to become an idiot. I am talking from day one. None of it makes much sense.

Actually, I think it's a very pointed conversation that has all kinds of subtext. Lots of analysis of that floating around.

And as others have stated before, the birth wasn't necessarily occurring during the fight. Not that this makes a real difference.

I think Ned was pretty focused on the three highly skilled knights right in front of him. You know, the ones with swords and deadly intentions. If they are willing to fight him, I think Ned can assume that they won't be answering any of his questions about his sister, and he is not a man to waste words.

But I'm curious. Ned's dream does not involve Ned questioning the kingsguard about Lyanna. So you think this means...what, exactly?

[Jon Icefyre]

Willian Darry was not KG, he was a brother of Jonothor Darry KG killed on Trident. Viserys and Dany did not have any KGs. 3 KGs were with Rhaegar, Darry and Martell died on Trident, Selmi injured, Jaime was in KL, and 3 KGs were present at ToJ.

I'm not saying those three were the last alive i'm saying they were the last unaccounted for until Ned found their location. And ya your right Darry wasn't a Kg member it was his older brother my point was he was a known by the realm.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Willian Darry was not KG, he was a brother of Jonothor Darry KG killed on Trident. Viserys and Dany did not have any KGs. 3 KGs were with Rhaegar, Darry and Martell died on Trident, Selmi injured, Jaime was in KL, and 3 KGs were present at ToJ.

They should call themselves Princeguards. Only one was guarding the King

This timeline just doesn't make sense though does it?

Aerys dies in throne room. Ned is the first one to find Jaime on the throne. He lives KL after the ordeal with dead children. Lifts the seige at Storm's End. Then goes to Lyanna.

Lyanna dies shortly after giving birth right? 0-2 weeks? News would've already given the KG facts that their prince and king had been slain.

They can't know that Lyanna is going to have a boy, so don't they have to go guard Viserys? When they hear that Aerys has been slain?

What order could Rhaegar give them that would supercede that?

[Roza Ahai]

I'm not saying those three were the last alive i'm saying they were the last unaccounted for until Ned found their location. And ya your right Darry wasn't a Kg member it was his older brother was my point was he was a known by the realm.

I only wanted to mention that Vyseris and Dany didn't have any KGs. I agree with your post

[Jon Icefyre]

I only wanted to mention that Vyseris and Dany didn't have any KGs. I agree with your post

:cheers:

[Roza Ahai]

They can't know that Lyanna is going to have a boy, so don't they have to go guard Viserys? When they hear that Aerys has been slain?

What order could Rhaegar give them that would supercede that?

I think they followed Rhaegar's order to protect princess Lyanna. Regardless, they were supposed to wait until her birth because that baby was a potentional king. I believe they had to stay with her until she gives a birth to a baby. I don't think they were supposed to leave Lyanna after the birth even if the baby was a girl because Rhaegar needed a 3rd head of dragon.

Rhaegar might didn't take care about Rhaella and Vyseris because they weren't heads of a dragon, or he might simply think that Dragonstone is safe enough for them.