Varys poisoned Tywin Lannister (a theory)

[A wilding]

... and that's why Tyrion was so shocked that the Viper and a Tyrell break bread with Tywin: ...

Wasn't it Jaime who was shocked? And he was shocked that they were all sitting down together - the "breaking bread" was a flippant assumption on his part.

[FittleLinger]

Wasn't it Jaime who was shocked? And he was shocked that they were all sitting down together - the "breaking bread" was a flippant assumption on his part.

Maybe, yeah :) But didn't someone actually tell him they were having dinner?

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Just found this. I now completely reject the Oberyn theory in favour of this one. Awesome! :)

[ckal]

This explicitly suggests that Varys' little birds are listening and would have gotten this information to Varys. If Oberyn had truly poisoned Tywin, I doubt he would have been so liberal in his conversation. Also, Oberyn knows, and admits as much, that any poisoning would sound suspiciously like the work of the Red Viper. It wouldn't be the brightest way for Oberyn to murder Tywin Lannister.

In reference to the underlined portion of the quote:

This conversation took place after the murder of Joffrey, not Tywin, and also Oberyn died before Tywin died, so it seems like your sentence here doesn't make much sense.

[Loon Lord]

This is amazing but what is the purpose of this discovery? George has a reason for every little plot device in the books but what is the reason behind poisoning someone if they were to get shot anyway? If this is to be true then this must have some impact later on in the books, maybe Tywin would not have died of the crossbow bolt by itself or maybe he just wants Varys to add another murder to his resume of scheming.

[tyrionsparamour]

Maybe I missed somethin but what evidence is there that tywin was poisoned other then him taking a crap (which is a normal human function) with the mountain the poison took affect almost immediately and was painful tywin was fine enough to get it in with shea and why put In all this effort for clues about a poisioning for him to be killed by a shot if someone could help me understand I would truely apperciate it

[Beric Zoolander]

This theory is tempting and interesting I thought about it for a while and I'm not fully convinced, neither with this or Oberyn poisoning Tywin.

If we look a the final paragraphs of ADWD with Kevan dying Varys lays much of it out for him. First of all it is something to know that most who die tend to make one final bowel movement.

A gust of wind blew up. Ser Kevan shivered violently. “Are you cold, my lord?” asked Varys. “Do

forgive me. The Grand Maester befouled himself in dying, and the stink was so abominable that I

thought I might choke.”

Furthermore Varys goes on to say

“I thought the crossbow fitting. You shared so much with Lord Tywin, why not that?"

Now he does elaborate and explain it will cause confusion as to who is to blame. That being said it doesn't go so far as to say Tywin's true means of death or dying was poison and that Tyrion expedited it.

But with Kevan dying and no one around but his little birds and him laying out his plans don't you think this would have been a nice time for a I or someone poisoned Tywin reveal?

I do wonder why GRRM would go so far as to mention that single poison in detail and not the others, although we already had witnessed Tears of Lys and it's properties. It is curious but not compelling enough for me to think it 100% true.

[tyrionsparamour]

I thought he described it cause that was what's oberyn used on the mountain

[Lady Arya's Song]

I also believe Vary's poisoned Tywin to create more chaos among the Houses after being given a report from a little bird regarding what Oberyn said to Tyrion in the dungeon. The hair on the back of Tyrion's neck stood up and he tried to caution Oberyn about those who might be listening! Vary's never lets an opportunity go to waste. One comment also stood out when Cersei goes into Tywin's room, there is a mention that a cup is sitting beside Tywin's bed. My guess is a little bird dropped the poison in Tywin's nightly drink. The body of Tywin is not reacting like other kings who also were given a seven day funeral. We have no one speaking of Joff's body stinking to this extent. Martin really goes into great detail to mention how much Tywin stinks from many different POV's. What really sold me on the idea that Tywin was poisoned though is what happens to Tyrion later in his story. This clinched it for me. Martin is writing Tyrion's story in a redemption arch. See below..how Tyrion reacts to a new "father" figure.

As to one possible reason that Martin wrote it this way in regard to Tyrion killing Tywin with the cross-bow. Much later in Tyrion's story arch..we now see him as a slave, with Penny and he is now cleaning the bottom of his new " father" figure the Yellow Whale who stinks to high heaven because he is dying slowly. Eventually the Yellow Whale becomes deathly ill due to the pale mare and its Tyrion's job to clean his bottom. This is so like George Martin.

[PrimeRhaegar]

+++ REP my word my mind = blown away i do like this and it makes so much sense

[Cersei of the Kingsguard]

im sure i missed something but how did Red Viper know Varys poisoned him ?

he saw it in Tywins eyes ? he heard Varys say so ? or did Varys told him

mainly im refering to this part

"Your father," said Prince Oberyn, "may not live forever."

Something about the way he said it made the hairs on the back of Tyrion’s neck bristle. Suddenly he was mindful of Elia again, and all that Oberyn had said as they crossed the field of ashes. He wants the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword. "It is not wise to speak such treasons in the Red Keep, my prince. The little birds are listening."

which seems to imply that Tywin is / or will be dead

if Red Viper didnt plan to poison him how could he say such thing

"Your father," said Prince Oberyn, "may not live forever."

[Inquisitor Glokta]

I like it!

It fits very well with Aegons planned conquest as well. If Varys wanted to destroy the relations between Dorne and the Lannisters/Tyrells, the best way to achieve that would be to poison Tywin with the Red Viper in KL, since he would clearly be the main if not only suspect.

I don't think he intended for Tyrion to kill him, but is using the incident and Cersei's paranoia to further destabilize the relations between the Lannisters and the lords of the Reach.

With Dorne and possible Targ loyal Reach lords + GC, Aegons numbers should be close to the Tyrells+Lannisters.

After all the shit that's been going down since Joff began his short reign, i can also see the common people supporting him.

Looks like Varys laid a pretty good foundation for Aegons second conquest.

[A wilding]

if Red Viper didnt plan to poison him how could he say such thing

Oberyn was planning to destroy Tywin to get revenge for Elia, I think we all agree on that. He basically tells Tyrion as much when they first meet in ASoS. He intended to first deal with Gregor, the man who did the deed, and in the process get him to say that Tywin gave the orders. Then he would go after Tywin.

This is why he said that Tywin would not live forever. It is not any sort of evidence that he had already poisoned Tywin.

That Oberyn was aware of some of Varys' plans is I suppose possible, but certainly not definite.

[Light a wight tonight]

My personal belief is that his motivation for killing Tywin is much the same as his motivation for killing Ser Kevan. Destabilization of the Lannister/Tyrell rule. A fractured, weak seven kingdoms are easier for Aegon's successful invasion.

Eliminating any competent Lannisters could well be Varys's motivation, if the basic permise that he poisoned Tywin is true.

I do like this better than Oberyn poisoning Tywin, though I'm far from convinced that he was poisoned at all.

[King Robert's Warhammer]

Would being hit by the quarrel and the physical reaction to death be enough to undo the effect of the poison?

We know that the poison shuts down the bowels and the bladder and we also know that his bowels opened as he died.

[Breastplate Stretcha]

Would being hit by the quarrel and the physical reaction to death be enough to undo the effect of the poison?

We know that the poison shuts down the bowels and the bladder and we also know that his bowels opened as he died.

The bolt "slammed into him above the groin and he sat back down with a grunt"

I think where the bolt hit Lord Tywin is what relieved his bowels.

EDIT: Spellin'

[Reginald blackfield]

I don't get it, if it was poison that killed Tywin then how comes we saw (or read) Tyrion shooing him with a crossbow?

[The Iron Banker]

:bowdown:

[Mithras]

This explicitly suggests that Varys' little birds are listening and would have gotten this information to Varys. If Oberyn had truly poisoned Tywin, I doubt he would have been so liberal in his conversation. Also, Oberyn knows, and admits as much, that any poisoning would sound suspiciously like the work of the Red Viper. It wouldn't be the brightest way for Oberyn to murder Tywin Lannister.

Joffrey's death and Tyrion's trial were completely unknown to Oberyn while he was coming to KL. But he came for justice and that means he wanted to kill Gregor and Tywin. They should know the death of Amory because it happened several months before than the purple wedding.

Oberyn wanted to be heard of speaking treason and murder. He poisoned Tywin (and made sure that the death of Tywin looks unnatural) and wanted to be charged by murder after Tywin's death. If it would have happened like this, he would again have his fight with Gregor. The Lannister cannot find a more suitable man other than Gregor in a trial by combat. This time Oberyn would be defending his innocence not Tyrion's. I think this is exactly how he planned to take his revenge. Oberyn didnot fear anything. I think given enough time, he could have poisoned more Lannisters too.

[RedShirt47]

I don't hink Varys did it.
I think the poisoning is more like an easter egg in the books and not really an important plot device. As such it make more sense to be Oberyn.

Also Varys kills Kevan when Aegon is landing in Westeros to sow chaos giving Aegon more chance of forming a foothold. When Twyin died Aegon was not on a direct course to invade, so killing Tywin at that time didn't really have any strategic benefit.