Some respect for Lady Catelyn

[Lion of Judah]

So I owe Lady Catelyn Stark of Winterfell an apology, I have said some egregious things about her in the past, for releasing the King Slayer and kidnapping Tyrion. But she made more good decisions than bad ones and I feel inclined to share a few.

Walder Frey sent Robb Stark 1000 mounted knights and 3000 foot soldiers, he never seemed to think about that when he married Jeyne Westerling, but his mommy did.

"Dare I ask how many swords come with your bride, Robb?"

"Fifty. A dozen knights."

Catelyn was the one who had a problem with the way Robb began to treat Grey Wind.

As they started up the steps, Catelyn asked the question that had been troubling her since she entered the hall. "Robb, where is Grey Wind?"

"In the yard, with a haunch of mutton. I told the kennelmaster to see that he was fed."

"You always kept him with you before."

"A hall is no place for a wolf. He gets restless, you've seen. Growling and snapping. I should never have taken him into battle with me. He's killed too many men to fear them now. Jeyne's anxious around him, and he terrifies her mother."

And there's the heart of it, Catelyn thought. "He is part of you, Robb. To fear him is to fear you."

Catelyn was the one who saw that Grey Wind's change in attitude was due to to the treachery of the Westerlings.

"I saw Bran's wolf tear out a man's throat at Winterfell," she said sharply, "and loved him for it."

"That's different. The man at the Crag was a knight Jeyne had known all her life. You can't blame her for being afraid. Grey Wind doesn't like her uncle either. He bares his teeth every time Ser Rolph comes near him."

A chill went through her. "Send Ser Rolph away. At once."

Ser Rolph Spicer, pardon me Lord Rolph Spicer plotted with his sister Sybell, Jeyne Westerlings mother against Robb and was rewarded with Castamere for his part in the betrayal. Interesting point of note, the Spicers are descendants of Maggy the Frog the woods witch who prophesied over Cersei.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Sticking to this point, I was pleasantly surprised at how she believed in the direwolves when Ned, who is a Stark and Northman to the core, looked at them as just pets.

MILF in the North ftw!

[Lyanna Stark]

Yep, Catelyn may have released Jaime as a last desperate measure to save her crumbling family, but she is normally very astute and as a rule makes good judgements and good decisions. She was spot on with Stannis and Renly as well, that they would be far better off not fighting each other. And she pointed out that Theon was not necessarily to be trusted, too. That Catelyn is normally astute gets lost in the fact that she released Jaime and made a snap decision to take Tyrion to the Kings Justice (not a kidnapping actually, on that technicality, only once they got to the Eyrie, Lysa was bonkers, but Cat didn't know that.)

Good idea for a thread btw. It's interesting to view the flipside and see the other side of a character like Cat. :)

Sticking to this point, I was pleasantly surprised at how she believed in the direwolves when Ned, who is a Stark and Northman to the core, looked at them as just pets.

Yeah it's funny how characters like Cersei somehow sees Cat as meek and southron (Cersei thinks Cat must be like a mouse at one point, hehe), when she realised the value of the direwolves more than Neddard did. Plus her words on how she appreciated Summer killing Bran's would be murderer are definitely proof that Cat realises there is something out of the ordinary between her children and the direwolves.

I had forgotten that Cat was so adamant to send Rolph Spicer away as well. Neat.

EDIT: I always appreciated Cat's pragmatic side, especially when they are discussing how to cross the Trident at the Twins and after some back and forth and reasoning (Theon being especially thick) Cat volunteers to go speak with Walder Frey, partly because she is "expendable". It's just a very pragmatic stance to take, I think. Her question to Robb about how many swords Jeyne Westerling brought is also very politically astute. She may not be Littlefinger, Tywin Lannister or Olenna Tyrell, but she's certainly not a stranger to political reality and what it means. Nor how it can hurt people who are not aware of it, as when she feels for Mya Stone and her hopeless love for Mychel Redfort.

[Lion of Judah]

Yep, Catelyn may have released Jaime as a last desperate measure to save her crumbling family, but she is normally very astute and as a rule makes good judgements and good decisions. She was spot on with Stannis and Renly as well, that they would be far better off not fighting each other. And she pointed out that Theon was not necessarily to be trusted, too. That Catelyn is normally astute gets lost in the fact that she released Jaime and made a snap decision to take Tyrion to the Kings Justice (not a kidnapping actually, on that technicality, only once they got to the Eyrie, Lysa was bonkers, but Cat didn't know that.)

Yeah it's funny how characters like Cersei somehow sees Cat as meek and southron (Cersei thinks Cat must be like a mouse at one point, hehe), when she realised the value of the direwolves more than Neddard did. Plus her words on how she appreciated Summer killing Bran's would be murderer are definitely proof that Cat realises there is something out of the ordinary between her children and the direwolves.

The thing about her releasing the King Slayer that I overlooked...Rickard Karstark was the one who was really upset about her releasing Jamie and got into her face about it. The interesting thing was the person who defended her was GreatJon who up to this point had lost sons as well if I'm not mistaken. So it seems to me that even though many of the men weren't happy with what she did, for the most part the understood why she did it.

[Lion of Judah]

Sticking to this point, I was pleasantly surprised at how she believed in the direwolves when Ned, who is a Stark and Northman to the core, looked at them as just pets. MILF in the North ftw!

Yes, she knew the wolves were not a mistake or just pets, they were more important and she tried reminding Robb of that.

[Darkstar For King]

I had always liked Cat and even now as Lady Stoneheart killing the bloody Freys (though I want to see more of her!). It's cool how she appreciates the Direwolves so much even though she isn't a Stark by blood. Her council to Robb has always been good and maybe the release of Jaime might still be a good thing as he went through a lot of changes when travelling with Brienne.

Edit: It was sad to see her go mad just before her death though...

[Papa Stark]

I've always appreciated Catelyn, even through her moments bitterness, and silly/bad decisions, because she is only human. Catelyn was a good daughter, wife, and mom (to her own children at least), and she seemed to always try to do what she felt was right at the time. Plus it's hard not to have an appreciation for a woman who has gone through so many terrible things, one after another...

[Rolex Baratheon]

I was always surprised Lady Stonecat wasn't extremely famous. Kills Freys, that should be like a 1-way ticket to fame on the boards.

[Lyanna Stark]

The thing about her releasing the King Slayer that I overlooked...Rickard Karstark was the one who was really upset about her releasing Jamie and got into her face about it. The interesting thing was the person who defended her was GreatJon who up to this point had lost sons as well if I'm not mistaken. So it seems to me that even though many of the men weren't happy with what she did, for the most part the understood why she did it.

I think you are right in that there is an understanding of that when your children are prisoners, you want them exchanged. There also seem to be an understanding that people die in wars, and that it is not necessarily the same thing as trying your utmost to get back your living children from a dire situation. Maege Mormont also seemed understanding of Cat's position in this regard, and she's hardly a meek little weakling.

[Lion of Judah]

I think you are right in that there is an understanding of that when your children are prisoners, you want them exchanged. There also seem to be an understanding that people die in wars, and that it is not necessarily the same thing as trying your utmost to get back your living children from a dire situation. Maege Mormont also seemed understanding of Cat's position in this regard, and she's hardly a meek little weakling.

:agree:

[Ducks in a Field]

All of Cats mistakes are very human - All the hard decisions she makes are well thought out and understandable. WhilstI do not agree with the result of some of those decisions, I am happy to say that Cat is one of the best written characters in the series.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I have the utmost respect for Lady Catelyn and I will not take criticisms of her that well, especially when it's about her being the greatest evil there ever was, is and will be. Hands off of Lady Catelyn, you pricks. She is one of the strongest women in the whole series. Releasing Jaime was, considering the whole situation, a bad thing. It may have been a rash decision of her - but not one which has endangered Robb's cause. If anything, his whole stay with the Starks and his release have been a great wake-up call for Jaime, and resulted in that Brienne was now looking for Sansa on Jaime's orders, and that Jaime finally got some common sense in his head.

[The Drunkard]

Releasing Jaime and nabbing Tyrion were things I don't believe she should've done, but they hardly compare to the good intentions and advice she's had and given throughout the series.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Agreed.

Another reason people hate her because of the whole Jon Snow thing. She said one horrible thing, once, when she was wracked by grief and sadness about Bran's fall and subsequent coma, and this makes her the root of all that is evil? I call bullshit on that.

Her mistakes are consistently amplified and her achievements consistently overlooked.

While i hope she eventually does find some peace and rest from her current Stoneheart incarnation, i hope she hangs every bloody Frey she can get her hands on before this happens.

All hail the MILF in the North!

[Axrendale]

I have the utmost respect for Lady Catelyn and I will not take criticisms of her that well, especially when it's about her being the greatest evil there ever was, is and will be. Hands off of Lady Catelyn, you pricks. She is one of the strongest women in the whole series. Releasing Jaime was, considering the whole situation, a bad thing. It may have been a rash decision of her - but not one which has endangered Robb's cause. If anything, his whole stay with the Starks and his release have been a great wake-up call for Jaime, and resulted in that Brienne was now looking for Sansa on Jaime's orders, and that Jaime finally got some common sense in his head.

I agree completely with the general sentiment of admiration for Catelyn, but releasing Jaime truly was a terrible decision that had awful consequences for the Starks - and for reasons that could not possibly have been anticipated. As soon as Tywin learned that Jaime was out of captivity, there was nothing to stop him from plotting the Red Wedding with no fear of retaliation against his favorite child.

[Lyanna Stark]

I agree completely with the general sentiment of admiration for Catelyn, but releasing Jaime truly was a terrible decision that had awful consequences for the Starks - and for reasons that could not possibly have been anticipated. As soon as Tywin learned that Jaime was out of captivity, there was nothing to stop him from plotting the Red Wedding with no fear of retaliation against his favorite child.

But the start of the Red Wedding planning took place before Tywin knew Jaime wasn't dead? In Arya ACOK we see Roose Bolton getting some "news" in Harrenhal that seem awfully suspicious plus Roose organises the Duskendale fiasco then too, and it's not until Roose gets his hands on Jaime when the Bloody Mummers bring him in that Tywin should know Jaime is safe. Before that, Jaime is not safe and had Tywin thought the Red Wedding hung on Jaime being safe, then I am not convinced by the time scale.

Tyrion also thinks that Tywin has left Jaime for dead as early as late AGOT/early ACOK, if I remember correctly, so the link between releasing Jaime - cause of Red Wedding I think is tenuous at best, and most likely not supported. Probably a topic for another thread, but it's interesting all the same to try and figure out the time line.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

I have the utmost respect for Lady Catelyn and I will not take criticisms of her that well, especially when it's about her being the greatest evil there ever was, is and will be. Hands off of Lady Catelyn, you pricks. She is one of the strongest women in the whole series.

Sticking to this point, I was pleasantly surprised at how she believed in the direwolves when Ned, who is a Stark and Northman to the core, looked at them as just pets.

MILF in the North ftw!

Yep, Catelyn may have released Jaime as a last desperate measure to save her crumbling family, but she is normally very astute and as a rule makes good judgements and good decisions. Good idea for a thread btw. It's interesting to view the flipside and see the other side of a character like Cat. :)

I agree, Cat is one of the best of GRRM's characters (and pretty much the perfect woman :wub: )

[therealbando]

Sticking to this point, I was pleasantly surprised at how she believed in the direwolves when Ned, who is a Stark and Northman to the core, looked at them as just pets.

MILF in the North ftw!

I was surprisefd as well that she was the only one who believed in the direwolves, especially when she tells Robb to keep Grey Wind close and Robb refuses

[Scipio Africanus]

But she made more good decisions than bad ones and I feel inclined to share a few.

Well. I don't know about that. But I'd say her judgement and actions were pretty sound than most people give her credit for.

- advices that Bobby B is a changed man as the king to her husband

Spot on there. Still Eddard was right not being enthousiastic going to that viper's nest.

- believing Lysa's message that Jon Arryn had been murdered by the Lannisters

She had not seen her sister in years and had no info on what happened at KL. No reason not to mistrust her sister's words.

- after Bran's "accident" refuses to leave his bedside

Nothing abnormal here.

- her legendary hate remark to Jon while the latter came to say goodbye to Bran

While it was pretty nasty its understandable considering she hadn't slept in a while.

- left Winterfell after the assassination attempt on Bran

Considering the lines of communication in the world of ASOFAI going in person with such sensitive news/info seems the right thing to do. Unless you have a network of little birds...

- her meeting with LF at KL

She just wanted to meet up with Eddard, but instead was intercepted by Varys and brought to LF.

- believing LF's story about the dagger used in the assassination attempt on Bran

She didn't know how much our buddy LF had changed. I don't believe he was the "criminal mastermind" back when he was a ward at Riverrun. Was a long time (15-16 years) since she last saw LF. Back then she considered LF like a brother and when she met him again had no reason not to trust him.

- kidnapping Tyrion and taking him to the Eyrie

She gets a lot of flack for this, but remember, a lot of people were stearing for war between lion and wolf at that moment, manipulating everyone to that goal. Based on the info she had and coming from what she thought was reliable info, she took Tyrion hostage so he could stand trial, in a world where there was no courts of law but justice spoken by the king or fellow lords. The war would've come whatever Cat did or did not do.

Her decision to take him to the Eyrie was smart on paper. Again she didn't know Lysa was on psycho mode and actually against her own family. You could say that taking a small party through Mountain Clan territory was dangerous, but the Clans seem to have been less active for years until the recent death of Jon Arryn. Besides, her uncle mr. Blackfish, would be there at the Bloody Gate. If she had gone back to KL, west, or north along the King's Road, Cat and her party would've likely been caught.

It did however give Tywin the excuse to unleash mr. Mountain for a nice bit of Riverland raping. Not under Lannister banners of course.

- Tyrion's release

Entirely Lysa's fault.

- her mistrust of the Late Lord Frey and her subsequent negotiation with him

Well. She was right not trusting him that's for sure. As for her dealings with ol' Walder Heffner, well, it seems a steep price to pay and I wonder if it could've been solves in another matter but at any rate, Walder wasn't exactly in a hurry to help out his liege lord, and Robb was in a hurry to extract Riverrun's besieged army.

- her resistence to naming Theon an envoy to Balon

Spot on there. But Robb trusted his friend (and Theon confirmed Robb was his best friend) and Theon's behaviour is pretty astonishing if you think about it.

- her diplomatic mission

The result was a failure, but not something that was caused by her. The Baratheons were never going to reconcile, due to various (plot driven) circemstances.

- Renly's assassination

Well it's kind of hard acting against bloodmagic. Did she do the right thing by running away with Brienne? Well considering Loras' mood I'd say so. How was she going to explain Renly's death? Who'd believe her Renly just had his throat slit by thing air?

She gets flack too for not going to Bitterbridge and the Tyrells. I find that it was the right thing to do considering Loras' mood. Do people honestly thing Loras would just start dealing with someone harbouring who he thought killed Renly? I doubt it, I think Loras would've killed Brienne and held Cat hostage.

- her mistrust of Edmure's "brilliant strategy" of pulling troops from the Twins and attacking Tywin

Spot on there.

- her release of the Kingslayer

You know I really can't find any excuses for this. Yes we can understand why she did it. But up till now she was the so called elder statesman and thought and handled like that. Yet in this case a lot of senses left her. Releasing Westeros' most notorious oathbreaker on an oath doesn't seem like the smartest thing to do. But the way she did it defies logic as well. Not coordinating the release with someone at KL seems insanity, as she covertly released Jamie with only Brienne (a woman she barely knew) and Cleos (he man she entirely didn't trust and the enemy) in a war zone. Parties could only travel with strong escorts accross the Riverlands, and large sections of the Riverlands were occupied by the enemy (and Jamie's friends). What are the odds of I) them surviving (Cleos ended up dead) and II) that Jamie would find friends and snub at the oaths he made (which he eventually did)? Releasing a major bargaining chip for uncertain results on such low odds is pretty dim.

It goes far worst than that. She released the Kingslayer on some vague statement made by Cleos (who she didn't trust) that the Imp (who she didn't trust) would release her daughters if the Kingslayer was returned. She also undermined Robb's authority. What she did was technically treason and punishable by death, but of course Robb couldn't go around hacking off his mother's head, thus making him a hypocrite on default. As Cat showed that the treatment of prisoners was open to anyone's descretion. Rickard Karstark used this precedence to murder of a few Lannisters, with disasterious results for the morale of Robb's army and his authority. You can't say Cat didn't know what she was doing. She released almost immediately of the consequences, and during the Karstark episode she knew it was her fault.

Her biggest mistake and its something which has trashed her legacy, and unfortunately contributed to her own family's downfall.

- her unenthousiastic reaction of Robb's marriage to Jeyne

Well spot on there. The only thing which is kind of hypocrite of her, is that she was hanging out the elder statesman again, yet she herself made a massive "unprofessional" error by releasing the Kingslayer.

- her resistence to naming Jon heir

Faulty judgement based on that she projected her fears that Jon would steal from her children that had nothing to do with Jon himself. Still, the situation of Jon was unusual and I suppose that would make a highborn noblewoman like Cat mistrustful.

- her insistence that Grey Wind stays close to Robb

Spot on there.

To conclude: her decisions have often proved to be less than favourable, but she made them often on the basis of faulty intel and trusting people she had no reason of not trusting considering the past. Her judgement is mostly sound I find. The massive enormity of releasing the Kingslayer aside. That leaves her little hate remark to Jon, which did make me not particulairly like her for a while, but it's understandable if you think about the backdrop of which that little remark was made.

So long live the MILF in the North! ;)

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Can the MILF in the North become Catelyn's nickname? Along the lines of kingslayer, halfman, the mountain that rides etc? please please please, those exceedingly "ripe" breasts deserve more recognition.