Some respect for Lady Catelyn

[Frey Pie]

You're considerably overestimating the amount of damage that Robb and his host were able to do during their brief harrying of the Westerlands. Apart from routing Stafford Lannister's host at Oxcross, the sum total of what the Young Wolf and his men were able to accomplish was thus: they captured two minor castles (Ashemark and the Crag), took temporary control of three gold-mines (Castamere, Nunn's Deep, Pendric Hills), burned some villages along a section of the coastline, and stole several thousand cattle. That's it. Although that might sound like a lot on paper, if you actually look at the Westerlands on a map (this is as good as anything: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/e/e7/Map_of_westeros.jpg), that's nothing. The whole campaign after Oxcross was essentially confined to a medium-sized section of the Westerlands around Ashemark and the Crag, with large parts of the north and the entirety of the south remaining untouched. None of the most important castles - Casterly Rock, the Golden Tooth (after CR the site of the richest gold mines), Silverhill, Crakehall, Kayce, Faircastle, the Banefort - or the city of Lannisport were attacked, or even threatened (because Robb lacked the manpower and engineering capabilities to assault any of them). The Lannisters may have suffered several reverses in the field, but at that point in the conflict they had taken less damage to their powerbase than the North (which had just lost Winterfell), and far, far less than the Riverlands, where all but three of the major castles had been sacked at least once, and scarcely a single field remained unburnt except for the lands around Seaguard and the Twins.

You're also downplaying the benefits that the Tyrells derived from their alliance to the Lannisters, at least while Lord Tywin was alive. In addition to a guarentee of a marriage to the king for Margaery and a spot in the Kingsguard for Loras, as long as they were dealing with Tywin, the Tyrells recieved or were promised four seats on the Small Council (for Mace, Rowan, Redwyne, and Garth the Gross), as well as royal appointments for Garth's sons and other Tyrell relatives, grants of lordships and knighthoods to a multitude of Tyrell vassals (including Brightwater Keep for Garlan Tyrell), possession of some of the finest lands in the Stormlands, and remission of certain royal taxes. As much as relations may of deteriorated in the aftermath of his murder, as long as Tywin was alive, the Lannisters did not skimp on their allies.

The amount of damage caused by Robb has always been one of the things id like to no more. However, i would prefer to lose WF, and it not be held against me, then thousands of men in the field. The slain at Oxcross are thought to be in the many thousands of men. When does it say Ashemark is a small castle? Marbrand is one of Tywins key bannermen, commanding his right in the battle of the GF and one of Jaimes best friends. I wouldnt call it unsubstantial, nor would i the whole raiding of the west. As i already pointed out it seems comparable to the North, more detrimental to the man power, but less symbolic as the capital is intact. However, the real evidence of its efficacy is Tywin giving up a strong position to go to the rescue

I dont recall the parcelling out of land in the Stormlands but land and titles are easy to give out during war and often change hands. Im sure if Mace sided with Robb and they defeated Tywin, Robb would have no prolem surrendering part of the gold of the west to Mace, and would be equally generous in other ways as Tywin was, but more of an equal to Mace. IIRC Tywin never planned to give Garth the job. Im not saying the Lannisters skimped but that the prize is equal on the other side, if not better. That said, it depends on what Mace wants-a ubited realm or fractured. Tbh we both no the realm was going to be fractured no matter what decision he made. In Dance we have the mostly independant North, Vale and Dorne, and partly rebellious Riverlands, and thats with Mace supposedly going for unity

In any case this isnt the place to talk about such matters

[Axrendale]

The amount of damage caused by Robb has always been one of the things id like to no more. However, i would prefer to lose WF, and it not be held against me, then thousands of men in the field. The slain at Oxcross are thought to be in the many thousands of men. When does it say Ashemark is a small castle? Marbrand is one of Tywins key bannermen, commanding his right in the battle of the GF and one of Jaimes best friends. I wouldnt call it unsubstantial, nor would i the whole raiding of the west. As i already pointed out it seems comparable to the North, more detrimental to the man power, but less symbolic as the capital is intact. However, the real evidence of its efficacy is Tywin giving up a strong position to go to the rescue

Losing Winterfell was a blow for the North that was far worse than any number of losses in battle could possibly have been. Losing 20,000 men in battle is one thing. Losing the seat of your House is something else altogether - it delivers a shattering moral blow to your entire cause. It was after Winterfell was taken that people started calling Robb "the King who lost the North", and the Freys and Boltons started plotting to defect to the Lannisters.

I dont recall the parcelling out of land in the Stormlands but land and titles are easy to give out during war and often change hands. Im sure if Mace sided with Robb and they defeated Tywin, Robb would have no prolem surrendering part of the gold of the west to Mace, and would be equally generous in other ways as Tywin was, but more of an equal to Mace. IIRC Tywin never planned to give Garth the job. Im not saying the Lannisters skimped but that the prize is equal on the other side, if not better. That said, it depends on what Mace wants-a ubited realm or fractured. Tbh we both no the realm was going to be fractured no matter what decision he made. In Dance we have the mostly independant North, Vale and Dorne, and partly rebellious Riverlands, and thats with Mace supposedly going for unity

How could Robb have given the Tyrells anything comparable to what Tywin is offering? Robb has no Small Council to offer seats on, no prestigious royal titles to bestow upon his allies. He has no immediate capacity to offer Mace the lands after which he really hungers: Brightwater Keep, and choice parts of the Stormlands. Robb has nothing that will ever compare with the awe of Aegon's Iron Throne in the eyes of the Southroners.

Mace Tyrell values the trappings of power more than anything else. The North simply does not have the capacity to satiate this hunger of his.

[Frey Pie]

Losing Winterfell was a blow for the North that was far worse than any number of losses in battle could possibly have been. Losing 20,000 men in battle is one thing. Losing the seat of your House is something else altogether - it delivers a shattering moral blow to your entire cause. It was after Winterfell was taken that people started calling Robb "the King who lost the North", and the Freys and Boltons started plotting to defect to the Lannisters.

How could Robb have given the Tyrells anything comparable to what Tywin is offering? Robb has no Small Council to offer seats on, no prestigious royal titles to bestow upon his allies. He has no immediate capacity to offer Mace the lands after which he really hungers: Brightwater Keep, and choice parts of the Stormlands. Robb has nothing that will ever compare with the awe of Aegon's Iron Throne in the eyes of the Southroners.

Mace Tyrell values the trappings of power more than anything else. The North simply does not have the capacity to satiate this hunger of his.

Losing WF was a symbolic blow i agree. Losing two armies, one led by your invincible golden warrior, and the other in your homeland supposedly untouchable, both with little to no casualties to your enemy, is also a devastating blow. It was exactly so people didnt start talking about Tywin that he started for the west. I dont agree that losing the capital is in anyway more devastating than army after army in the field. The damage done in the North was superficial more then anything else

The Tyrells received none of that until they had joined and pretty much settled the war, so there were spoils to share. Seats in the small council are nice but nothing more then symbolically powerful. The Tyrells army is huge. Added to Robbs it dwarfs Tywin and Stannis and neither could do anything to stop them. Robb could help deliver Aegons throne to Mace if Mace wanted it, which would never happen with the Lannisters. He could have given Darry and Harrenhal to two of Maces men-Garlan and the younger Redwyne perhaps. Both worth far more then any number of seats. They can take Brightwater Keep for there own. They can do as they please and not have to bow to the most hated man in the realm, and a pouty kid with a crown, who likes to beat women. This causes any number of problems and divisions in the realm but to me is better then waiting a generation to see a boy with half my blood sitting on a throne which may rule over only a portion of the land still. They have an allied kingdom, a West with a huge power vaccum to be filled, as in the Stormlands, and the usual lip service of the Dornish and Vale men. If they want the Throne, they can take it, but this time for themselves and not for someone else

I reiterate this is going far off topic so if you wish to continue this we should bring it somewhere else

[Angmar]

If anything Catelyn is one of the strongest and most realistic characters in the series. I like how even she objects at times of her role in the story as a mother- in other novels the mother would be a secondary character, her son being the more important member. But funny, Catelyn gets the most screentime and POV, whereas Robb disappears for an entire book!

Thing like this always make me smile; Martin's ability to change tropes over their head completely and turn the story more unexpected.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

Lion Of Judah - Thank you for creating a positive Catelyn Stark thread, she deserves it. The first several pages had some outstanding comments, I wish I could like them all.

I read a comment from another poster that said Catelyn Stark's biggest flaw is that she is much smarter than the readers and doesn't bother to always explain herself to them. Seems rather accurate.

...

Catelyn is one of the most complex characters in the entire series. Her words may be family, duty, honor, yet her story line puts those exact words in opposition to each other. I don't expect everyone to love her (well, I do, but....), but the negativity heaped towards her is baffling.

I would like your post 100 times if I could. I relate to Cat more than any of the other characters as well and her story and her POV are heart-breaking and chilling. I love GRRM for writing such a complex, utterly human, intelligent female character.

[Frey Pie]

If anything Catelyn is one of the strongest and most realistic characters in the series. I like how even she objects at times of her role in the story as a mother- in other novels the mother would be a secondary character, her son being the more important member. But funny, Catelyn gets the most screentime and POV, whereas Robb disappears for an entire book!

Thing like this always make me smile; Martin's ability to change tropes over their head.

She is very easy to relate to. Shes a very strong figure, who is shown to have extremely strong family values. Shes also a key POV to many momentous moments:

The saving of Bran

Tyrions arrest

Bronns duel

The WW and the Battle of the Camps

Robbs Crowning

The meeting of the Baratheons

The slaying of Renly

The allegiance of the Beauty

The Battle of the Fords

The Unchaining of the Kingslayer

The beheading of Lord Karstark

And finally......the Red Wedding

Jeez a lot happens in her chapter...shes a great character. Its a pity what has happened to her. Uncat isnt the Cat i remember

[Blue Winter Roses]

I have a lot more respect for a character who makes occasional stupid decisions with the best of intentions (for example Cat), than for a supposedly intelligent character (Roose Bolton for example) who uses 'clever' lies and deception to gain the advantage. But hey, I'm a softy ;)

[Angmar]

She is very easy to relate to. Shes a very strong figure, who is shown to have extremely strong family values. Shes also a key POV to many momentous moments:

The saving of Bran

Tyrions arrest

Bronns duel

The WW and the Battle of the Camps

Robbs Crowning

The meeting of the Baratheons

The slaying of Renly

The allegiance of the Beauty

The Battle of the Fords

The Unchaining of the Kingslayer

The beheading of Lord Karstark

And finally......the Red Wedding

Jeez a lot happens in her chapter...shes a great character. Its a pity what has happened to her. Uncat isnt the Cat i remember

Catelyn is fantastic. If not for her, most of the plot would have gone to ashes. And this may sound sadistic, but her grim thoughts as tragedies keep occuring around her become more and more depressing, and I feel so much for her in her mourning. Much more than Jon's self doubts or Tyrion's hatred, imo, which were rooted at their own selves. Catelyn thought of others as much as her.

No lies, the one time where I really teared up was in Catelyn's final thoughts: Oh Ned, all of our sweet children...

Sad as hell.

[StarkRedrum]

She seems like a very real human to me.

When my cousin died, my aunt has gone really mad with grief, so I really sympathize with most of Cat's actions.

[Éadaoin]

She seems like a very real human to me.

When my cousin died, my aunt has gone really mad with grief, so I really sympathize with most of Cat's actions.

That's what I may love most about Cat - how real she was. Wonderfully written.

[jarl the climber]

Mace Tyrell, in Highgarden.

The whole thing with Littlefingers negotiations and the situation at Bitterbridge have always been a little confusing to me. We know that Petyr was dispatched with a modest retinue, 300-350 men including 20 knights and as many squires. We have to assume that ravens were sent ahead to both Bitterbridge and Highgarden informing them of Littlefingers mission. I always thought it was possible that Mace sailed up the Mander and met LF at Bitterbridge along with Garlan and Ollenna in tow. This would account for them(Garlan and Mace) being present at the Blackwater and some of the other events that occured such as Tarly meeting Tywins army at the headwaters of the Blackwater with rafts to transport his army. LF says some things that led me to beleive that Ollenna was present but he never specifies where they happen.

I also suppose its possible that LF arrived at Bitterbrige and got the OK to sail down the Mander to Highgarden but this seems like it would have slowed down the negotiations and the implementation of the alliance.

[Ran]

Littlefinger does say he was in Highgarden, and that that's where the negotiations took place. If Littlefinger went to Bitterbridge, I guess he was basically ushered on to Highgarden. Mace wasn't budging.

[Lion of Judah]

Lion Of Judah - Thank you for creating a positive Catelyn Stark thread, she deserves it. The first several pages had some outstanding comments, I wish I could like them all.

I read a comment from another poster that said Catelyn Stark's biggest flaw is that she is much smarter than the readers and doesn't bother to always explain herself to them. Seems rather accurate.

And because I'm lazy, copying a post I put together on another Catelyn thread a couple months ago:

To go back to the OP, Cat is very much a protagonist. Some of Martin's comments about her even support this. He has stated, more than once, that he very deliberately added a character who was a mother to the series. All to often, the mother in the series is already dead or irrelevant. He felt Cat needed to be in the story.

Second, to state that she isn't really a protagonist, is to assert that she exists for nothing more than to be a passive observer in the entire series. If we are going to look for a POV who qualifies for that role, I'd like to introduce you to Areo the Ax Man. It's a bit amusing that a claim is being made that she is not a protagonist in a thread where the usual complaints against her are ones that very much show that her role is to do more and she very obviously changes the plot of the series.

As to the usual complaints, I look at her taking of Tyrion and release of Jaime in a very different way. Catelyn is a tragic character. Her chapters are dark and very ominous at times. We see her thoughts as she loses her family members one by one, her despair over her daughters, and her love for what she believes is her only child not yet permanently lost to her. It's grief, one of our most primal emotions, and I can understand how some would find it a slog to get through. Personally, I respond to it. Maybe it is the fact that I am also a wife and mother, but there are many points at the story where I have an intense emotional response to her. But, back to the point of Catelyn's storyline. It's tragic and it's painful. Cat, as a character, is not able to win. The difference with her and other characters is that when she is forced to gamble and play her hand, she' is going to lose. It's not about bad decisions or lack of foresight or "she should have known...". The decked is stacked against her in a way it is not with every other single POV in the series. Tyrion, in the Vale with no allies, manages to win a trial by combat. Arya, in her escape from Harrenhal, happens to be saved by the wolves. Sansa, about to be beaten for saving Ser Dontos, is suddenly saved by the Hound. All of the above are examples of other characters playing their hand and actually being able to win. Catelyn does not.

Finally, it's a bit of a simplification to look at the situation between Cat and Jon as her being mean to him. Personally. I suspect at times that the negative feelings about their (lack of a) relationship is because she is in conflict with one of the most popular character in the fandom. But, this is not just a matter where Catelyn could have been "nicer" to him. The dynamics of this situation are much more complex than that. First, Ned, very deliberately I would add, created the situation between Jon and Cat. Ned made the decision to keep Jon in Cat's presence, recognizing that by doing so, he was publicly shaming her. Yet, he still did it anyway. He also, again his choice, kept Jon ignorant of his mother and kept him close to WF, again something that is rather in contrast with other bastards in Westeros. This situation is tragic for both Jon and Cat and, I believe, meant to be viewed this way. Ned, when he made that promise, did not just decide that he would pay the price for it. He made Cat and Jon do so as well, which I think is a form of abuse too.

As to bastards, I'd say better examples of their lives can be found in other places than the Sand Snakes or even Edric Storm. We have Gendry, who doesn't not know anything of his father and was being sent to the wall. Mya up in the Vale, who does know her father and has needed to find her own means to survive in the world. Another one of Robert's bastards turned in to a prostitute. We also have a great example through a Victarion chapter. One lord had his bastard daughter turned in to a servant in his own home. Ned, when he raised Jon in his own home, put himself on the same level as Walder Frey, hardly a glowing comparison.

Catelyn is one of the most complex characters in the entire series. Her words may be family, duty, honor, yet her story line puts those exact words in opposition to each other. I don't expect everyone to love her (well, I do, but....), but the negativity heaped towards her is baffling.

No problem Kitty, I was actually trying to eat some crow for the misguided things I said about her. I love the points you brought up in this post and I should let you know that I'm saving it, no copyright infringement intended. :drunk: