Some respect for Lady Catelyn

[Frey Pie]

Seems to me they made the same mistake-trusting Petyr

[TalalOfDorne]

Seems to me they made the same mistake-trusting Petyr

But did they really have a reason not to trust him?

[Castel]

But did they really have a reason not to trust him?

Yes. He gives them one whenever he opens his mouth.

[Lyanna Stark]

Seems to me they made the same mistake-trusting Petyr

Catelyn only went with LF's story about the dagger because she thought Lysa had confirmed the story independently. She had no way of knowing that LF and Lysa were in cahoots about Jon Arryn's murder and tried to pin it on the Lannisters.

In fact, both Cat and Ned are wary of LF but they have no choice as there were few other alternatives.

Tyrion didn't trust LF at all, but instead he went ahead and put his trust in Varys. Better or worse choice is the question.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

But did they really have a reason not to trust him?

Well, it was a long time ago since Catelyn saw Petyr Baelish, and she knew he was madly in love with her - he had fought a duel with a grown man for her. Now, she may have thought that 15 years is a long time, in which she is right, but still...

[werewolf]

Tyrion didn't trust LF at all, but instead he went ahead and put his trust in Varys. Better or worse choice is the question.

He didn't put his trust in Varys: he thought the heads of all three (Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle) belonged on spikes. But to govern as Hand he had to employ Varys. He also employed Littlefinger (e.g., to convey the marriage proposal to House Tyrell). Tyrion was one of the few capable of piercing the webs of deceit and manipulation that LF and Varys spun but he was keenly aware of how little he really knew.

[werewolf]

Yeah - I did a double take at that. Ned is one of my favorites, and I love him dearly, but I don't think he's sharper than Catelyn.

What's the argument that he's not? One argument that he is sharper is how he gradually picks up the threads of Arryn's investigations into the legitimacy of Cersei's children. This is something Catelyn could probably never have done. What does Ned in is his integrity. Even so, without Sansa running to Cersei, the Lannisters would not have prevailed.

[A wilding]

Even so, without Sansa running to Cersei, the Lannisters would not have prevailed.

Very doubtful, as LF had already sold the City Watch to Cersei.

[Lyanna Stark]

He didn't put his trust in Varys: he thought the heads of all three (Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle) belonged on spikes. But to govern as Hand he had to employ Varys. He also employed Littlefinger (e.g., to convey the marriage proposal to House Tyrell). Tyrion was one of the few capable of piercing the webs of deceit and manipulation that LF and Varys spun but he was keenly aware of how little he really knew.

No, that was Tywin's words, not Tyrion's.

As we have seen in the Tyrion reread, Tyrion puts a lot of trust in Varys, even when he tells himself to be wary. He ends up relying on Varys for an immense amount of things and gets disappointed when he sends for Varys when he is put on trial and Varys doesn't show.

What's the argument that he's not? One argument that he is sharper is how he gradually picks up the threads of Arryn's investigations into the legitimacy of Cersei's children. This is something Catelyn could probably never have done. What does Ned in is his integrity. Even so, without Sansa running to Cersei, the Lannisters would not have prevailed.

You missed the part where Ned told Cersei about what was going to happen and let her have lots and lots of time to prepare? Seriously, Sansa made herself a prisoner and told Cersei more about the exact timing of events, but Ned was the one who told Cersei initially. If you mean without Ned AND Sansa, then yes it would have been much harder, although that ignores completely Littlefinger's betrayal with the Gold Cloaks.

Especially since LF asked Cersei for Sansa's hand in marriage, LF already had his goal clear and only needed to remove Ned.

[David Selig]

What's the argument that he's not? One argument that he is sharper is how he gradually picks up the threads of Arryn's investigations into the legitimacy of Cersei's children. This is something Catelyn could probably never have done.

Come on, Ned kept getting hints left, right and centre - the genealogy book, "the seed is strong", meeting two of Robert's bastards, etc, yet it still took him months and Sansa saying "He's a stag, not a lion" about Joffrey to figure it out. Hardly an extraordinary achievement.

[Frey Pie]

Catelyn only went with LF's story about the dagger because she thought Lysa had confirmed the story independently. She had no way of knowing that LF and Lysa were in cahoots about Jon Arryn's murder and tried to pin it on the Lannisters.

In fact, both Cat and Ned are wary of LF but they have no choice as there were few other alternatives.

Tyrion didn't trust LF at all, but instead he went ahead and put his trust in Varys. Better or worse choice is the question.

She still trusts him, and she knows him better than most. If its a mistake for Ned, its a mistake for her, especially considering Ned trusted him in part because of what Cat tells him. They need not have trusted anyone and instead continued on with there own investigation-the book, the dagger and so forth

[werewolf]

No, that was Tywin's words, not Tyrion's.

Where does Tywin say this? He leaves it unsaid -- it's Tyrion who says "Spikes, heads, walls." From what I read, Tyrion reflect that this would have been "Tywin's way" -- meaning his way with treacherous people. I don't recall Tywin ever saying the heads of the three belonged on stakes. Indeed, later on (SoS), Tyrion had to caution Tywin about not trusting any of these people

As we have seen in the Tyrion reread, Tyrion puts a lot of trust in Varys, even when he tells himself to be wary. He ends up relying on Varys for an immense amount of things and gets disappointed when he sends for Varys when he is put on trial and Varys doesn't show.

Agreed. But he knew to be wary.

You missed the part where Ned told Cersei about what was going to happen and let her have lots and lots of time to prepare? Seriously, Sansa made herself a prisoner and told Cersei more about the exact timing of events, but Ned was the one who told Cersei initially. If you mean without Ned AND Sansa, then yes it would have been much harder, although that ignores completely Littlefinger's betrayal with the Gold Cloaks.

Yes, but Cersei didn't know what Ned would do were Robert to die. She didn't know the pace of Ned's plans and that Ned was sending a missive to Stannis. For this she needed Sansa and LF (Ned just couldn't think deviously and so couldn't understand characters like LF). For all Cersei knew, Ned didn't have anything up his sleeve were Robert to die -- she knew Ned meant her no good but that was about it (as far as I recall).

[werewolf]

Come on, Ned kept getting hints left, right and centre - the genealogy book, "the seed is strong", meeting two of Robert's bastards, etc, yet it still took him months and Sansa saying "He's a stag, not a lion" about Joffrey to figure it out. Hardly an extraordinary achievement.

Sansa's comment that "Joff wasn't like the drunken old king" gave Ned his epiphany ("stag not a lion" is said by Arya, incidentally). The patient investigation that Ned conducted is something Catelyn would never have done -- patiently going through the geneology book, finding Robert's bastards. Easy to say in retrospect that the deduction was a piece of cake -- one could just as easily say this about the cases of Hercule Poirot and Sherlock Holmes.

[jarl the climber]

With her son and family fighting, putting their lives on the line everyday, i dont think it is too much to ask for Cat to at least attempt talks. Even send in one of her attendants while camping a fair ride away to see what the feeling in the camp was or to make intial contact with Mace would have been more then what she did. I honestly dont think that Cat is in so much danger and as i said to anyone who takes time it is obvious that it wasnt Cat, and very unlikely to have been Brienne.

I had forgetten that Olenna was still in HG.

I thought Littlefinger went to Highgarden to arrange the alliance. Mace was not at Bitterbridge either. He also remained at Highgarden with 10,000 men as a reserve. Marge was at Bitterbridge and her and Ollenna seemed to have arrived in Kings Landing at the same time. Even if the negotians were held at Bitterbridge she was probaly there. From what she said to Sansa she did not seem to be grerat supporter of either Renly or the Lannisters.

IMO she is a player but Mace is her peice and he has a mind of his own. Shes more like a guardian angel for him. Fortunately for him he is her son and a poisoning is out of the question.

[Frey Pie]

I thought Littlefinger went to Highgarden to arrange the alliance. Mace was not at Bitterbridge either. He also remained at Highgarden with 10,000 men as a reserve. Marge was at Bitterbridge and her and Ollenna seemed to have arrived in Kings Landing at the same time. Even if the negotians were held at Bitterbridge she was probaly there. From what she said to Sansa she did not seem to be grerat supporter of either Renly or the Lannisters.

IMO she is a player but Mace is her peice and he has a mind of his own. Shes more like a guardian angel for him. Fortunately for him he is her son and a poisoning is out of the question.

Who commanded the men at Bitterbridge so? I was under the impression Mace did. He was at the BW wasnt he? Either way, Cat passed up a great opportunity to try and get an alliance for her son, or at least slow down the Tyrell/Lannister alliance

[Ran]

Mace wasn't there. Randyll Tarly, who was chopping off the heads of anyone who talked maybe-sorta they should do something other than what he said, was, and Loras, who killed his friends and sworn brothers because he blamed them for Renly's death.

Sorry, Catelyn going to Bitterbridge would have been folly. You're asking her to march toward what would likely be her death.

[David Selig]

Sansa's comment that "Joff wasn't like the drunken old king" gave Ned his epiphany ("stag not a lion" is said by Arya, incidentally). The patient investigation that Ned conducted is something Catelyn would never have done -- patiently going through the geneology book, finding Robert's bastards. Easy to say in retrospect that the deduction was a piece of cake -- one could just as easily say this about the cases of Hercule Poirot and Sherlock Holmes.

You have got to be kidding. The case really wasn't that complicated and LF and Varys kept dropping hints and helping Ned. Anyone with a decent intellect could've done solved. What was Ned's "careful investigation"? Talk to Pycelle once, send Jory to Ser Hugh, read the book and visit a smithy and a brothel?

[Castel]

The case was difficult to solve not because it was complex but because it was insane and strange enough that you wouldn't immediately think that it was the likely explanation.

[Frey Pie]

The who commanded at Bitterbridge? Garlan? Who was it that LF talked to? Randyll killed the men Stannis sent to claim the men at Bitterbridge. Im not sure that he would have done the same thing at Bitterbridge. Perhaps Mace could have been called up to mediate. Im fairly certain LF didnt broker the deal with just Randyll and Loras, but instead talked it out with Mace. Randyll at least is an old Targ loyalist. He has no reason to love Tywin Lannister more then Robb Stark after what Jaime and Tywin did

[Kittykatknits]

Lion Of Judah - Thank you for creating a positive Catelyn Stark thread, she deserves it. The first several pages had some outstanding comments, I wish I could like them all.

I read a comment from another poster that said Catelyn Stark's biggest flaw is that she is much smarter than the readers and doesn't bother to always explain herself to them. Seems rather accurate.

And because I'm lazy, copying a post I put together on another Catelyn thread a couple months ago:

To go back to the OP, Cat is very much a protagonist. Some of Martin's comments about her even support this. He has stated, more than once, that he very deliberately added a character who was a mother to the series. All to often, the mother in the series is already dead or irrelevant. He felt Cat needed to be in the story.

Second, to state that she isn't really a protagonist, is to assert that she exists for nothing more than to be a passive observer in the entire series. If we are going to look for a POV who qualifies for that role, I'd like to introduce you to Areo the Ax Man. It's a bit amusing that a claim is being made that she is not a protagonist in a thread where the usual complaints against her are ones that very much show that her role is to do more and she very obviously changes the plot of the series.

As to the usual complaints, I look at her taking of Tyrion and release of Jaime in a very different way. Catelyn is a tragic character. Her chapters are dark and very ominous at times. We see her thoughts as she loses her family members one by one, her despair over her daughters, and her love for what she believes is her only child not yet permanently lost to her. It's grief, one of our most primal emotions, and I can understand how some would find it a slog to get through. Personally, I respond to it. Maybe it is the fact that I am also a wife and mother, but there are many points at the story where I have an intense emotional response to her. But, back to the point of Catelyn's storyline. It's tragic and it's painful. Cat, as a character, is not able to win. The difference with her and other characters is that when she is forced to gamble and play her hand, she' is going to lose. It's not about bad decisions or lack of foresight or "she should have known...". The decked is stacked against her in a way it is not with every other single POV in the series. Tyrion, in the Vale with no allies, manages to win a trial by combat. Arya, in her escape from Harrenhal, happens to be saved by the wolves. Sansa, about to be beaten for saving Ser Dontos, is suddenly saved by the Hound. All of the above are examples of other characters playing their hand and actually being able to win. Catelyn does not.

Finally, it's a bit of a simplification to look at the situation between Cat and Jon as her being mean to him. Personally. I suspect at times that the negative feelings about their (lack of a) relationship is because she is in conflict with one of the most popular character in the fandom. But, this is not just a matter where Catelyn could have been "nicer" to him. The dynamics of this situation are much more complex than that. First, Ned, very deliberately I would add, created the situation between Jon and Cat. Ned made the decision to keep Jon in Cat's presence, recognizing that by doing so, he was publicly shaming her. Yet, he still did it anyway. He also, again his choice, kept Jon ignorant of his mother and kept him close to WF, again something that is rather in contrast with other bastards in Westeros. This situation is tragic for both Jon and Cat and, I believe, meant to be viewed this way. Ned, when he made that promise, did not just decide that he would pay the price for it. He made Cat and Jon do so as well, which I think is a form of abuse too.

As to bastards, I'd say better examples of their lives can be found in other places than the Sand Snakes or even Edric Storm. We have Gendry, who doesn't not know anything of his father and was being sent to the wall. Mya up in the Vale, who does know her father and has needed to find her own means to survive in the world. Another one of Robert's bastards turned in to a prostitute. We also have a great example through a Victarion chapter. One lord had his bastard daughter turned in to a servant in his own home. Ned, when he raised Jon in his own home, put himself on the same level as Walder Frey, hardly a glowing comparison.

Catelyn is one of the most complex characters in the entire series. Her words may be family, duty, honor, yet her story line puts those exact words in opposition to each other. I don't expect everyone to love her (well, I do, but....), but the negativity heaped towards her is baffling.