Some respect for Lady Catelyn

[Frey Pie]

You may not, but Catelyn had no reason to think otherwise.

No she isn't. Mace is. He's the one who was involved in Renly's plot, who wanted to be Hand, who wanted his daughter to be queen. All these things have happened because of him.

All the Queen of Thorns can do, way out in Highgarden, is try to influence things behind the scenes. She actually has very limited power, if you actually look at things. I mean, her great show of power is... secretly plotting to murder Joffrey with poison because of a marriage she could not undo that her son had arranged. She's reacting to stuff that the more powerful people do as best she can, but that means she's reacting, not acting.

And let me emphasize her being in Highgarden. She is far away from Bitterbridge. She couldn't influence the grieving, enraged, quick-tempered Loras.

With her son and family fighting, putting their lives on the line everyday, i dont think it is too much to ask for Cat to at least attempt talks. Even send in one of her attendants while camping a fair ride away to see what the feeling in the camp was or to make intial contact with Mace would have been more then what she did. I honestly dont think that Cat is in so much danger and as i said to anyone who takes time it is obvious that it wasnt Cat, and very unlikely to have been Brienne.

I had forgetten that Olenna was still in HG. I wouldnt write her off though as a whole to the story, as we see her in the Sansa/Wyllas plot also. In that case is there anything Cat can offer Mace to sway him Robbs way? IMO yes, quite alot. Garlan i believe is in Bitterbridge and could act to calm Loras. If nothing else it gives Mace something to chew on, taking away the precious time that Robb and Edmure need to ensure KL falls and that Stannis stays in the game, keeping Tywin busy

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

I'll take that as confirmation that Ned's mother is Skaagosi :cool4: . You know you want to tell us Ran.

Paternal grandmother IMO is the Skagos connection.

Sorry, offtopic.

[Frey Pie]

That was because it was a marriage to a third or second son or something. Robb is the eldest, he gets to marry the woman HE chooses. It's a different dynamic. And let's not mention that there might have been better houses to marry into at the time, that might not have been the case for Robb.

It's not only the Tyrells that are there. Cat was there, the King died. I don't think that people will be inclined to listen to rumors about a shadow. Cat would surely not want to expose herself with that as her defense, envoy or no.

And let's not forget that these are superstitious people. Renly usurped the position of his brother. His brother arrived and fought against all reason. Renly died. Not a good sign.

True, that is the only time that Cat could have won the army. The Tyrells otherwise would go to the person who could guarantee their power: and the only person was Tywin Lannister. Stannis would take everything and Robb wouldn't be able to stop him, busy as he was. But I don't see Cat going there to negotiate with people who think that she killed their king.

There are plenty of other houses for Robb to marry into. Not so long ago he was bethrothed to Myrcella. I agree the curcumstances are different but as far as i know it wasnt the fact that Genna didnt choose her husband, but that she could do better, not only because Emmon wasnt heir but because it was a lower house. Im not saying Robb should feel the same, but there is precedent. Rickon and Arya would have been good matches for Walder, along with the squires and everything else

Anyone who thinks for a moment would see that Cat didnt kill Renly:

His armour was cut up in an unbelievable way-couldnt possibly have been Cat

Cat had been his guest and shown no animosity towards him for days-not everyone feels that guest rights can be so easily thrown away

Brienne loved him

Cat tried to negotiate a truce between the brothers

She came to make an ally, not an enemy-whats her motive? To give Tywin or Stannis more men?

Cats a Tully and a Stark, both known to be honourable houses. Additionally her husband was Renlys brothers best friend, known to be honourable to a fault and also known to Renly

Cats men stayed with Renly and had no animosity between them, showing willingness to cooperate

Stannis threatened Renly, he is in all cases the most likely and easily blamed. Cat believes it was Stannis, as does Brienne. Would the Tyrells not swallow this?

[RenlySupporter16]

Like all separatists, the Northmen and Catelyn Stark view their cause as one of singular importance. They are so hung up on carving out a free and autonomous kingdom that they lose sight of realities on the ground. I know she is sent as an emissary to Renly, but she comes as a pauper with not much to offer. She has no daughters to offer in a marriage pact, and neither she nor Robb thinks of offering Sansa to Loras (I know Robb regrets not having done this in Storm of Swords but that is much later and hindsight is 20/20) in the event they liberate Kings Landing. Instead of offering her sons medium sized host to aid Renly in his movements she instead tries to treat as an equal which we know would be singularly ineffective to a man like Renly with a host 100,000 strong. And when Renly falls, does she think to make treat with Stannis? I know she had to flee, but once to a safe location she could have ridden under a peace banner to him. She and Brienne know Stannis's power better than most. With a large portion of Renly's army in tow how could her son and the north think to stand against a battle tested am. Like Stannis? But like all separatists and freedom fighters they view the sanctity of their cause as more paramount than the realities on the ground. This ideological freeze makes it impossible for Robb, Catelyn, and the north to truly make common cause with anyone.

[Castel]

There are plenty of other houses for Robb to marry into. Not so long ago he was bethrothed to Myrcella. I agree the curcumstances are different but as far as i know it wasnt the fact that Genna didnt choose her husband, but that she could do better, not only because Emmon wasnt heir but because it was a lower house. Im not saying Robb should feel the same, but there is precedent. Rickon and Arya would have been good matches for Walder, along with the squires and everything else

At that moment? If they don't cross their cause is irreparably set back. The deal with Lord Walder was deceptively good. By saving the riverlanders Robb earned points with them and cements himself as their ally on top of being the son of their lord's daughter. He doesn't need to marry them for that, they already had close ties and he just saved their ass. Lysa should also have joined them, given her relation to the riverlands, but even if she didn't there's no one he can marry to fix that.

Myrcella is no longer an option. That's just the reality.

Dorne is a no-go. The Tyrells are the only other important house. But they won't matter if Robb cannot beat Jaime. It's the prestige of that victory that gave him the ability to actually secede. Without it he's an outnumbered rebel with no (active) allies.

Without Walder's opening, Robb is in a bad position.His allies are being sieged out and he's stuck on one side of the river with an experience commander with superior numbers bearing down on him. He knows it, Walder Frey knows it. He's not going to budge for anything less than a full pot. Lord Walder had every advantage when it came to bargaining here. IT was a great position.

Maybe during Tywin's time there were better strategic prospects, but that was peace and a different era, That said,the insult was definitely compounded by the fact that it wasn't Walder's eldest son. They do marry into lower houses, but usually in their realm to shore up alliances, that was what pissed off the Westerlanders, they wanted Gemma for themselves just like the hightowers want the Tyrells.

[Frey Pie]

At that moment? If they don't cross their cause is irreparably set back. The deal with Lord Walder was deceptively good. By saving the riverlanders Robb earned points with them and cements himself as their ally on top of being the son of their lord's daughter. He doesn't need to marry them for that, they already had close ties and he just saved their ass. Lysa should also have joined them, given her relation to the riverlands, but even if she didn't there's no one he can marry to fix that.

Myrcella is no longer an option. That's just the reality.

Dorne is a no-go. The Tyrells are the only other important house. But they won't matter if Robb cannot beat Jaime. It's the prestige of that victory that gave him the ability to actually secede. Without it he's an outnumbered rebel with no (active) allies.

Without Walder's opening, Robb is in a bad position.His allies are being sieged out and he's stuck on one side of the river with an experience commander with superior numbers bearing down on him. He knows it, Walder Frey knows it. He's not going to budge for anything less than a full pot. Lord Walder had every advantage when it came to bargaining here. IT was a great position.

Maybe during Tywin's time there were better strategic prospects, but that was peace and a different era, That said,the insult was definitely compounded by the fact that it wasn't Walder's eldest son. They do marry into lower houses, but usually in their realm to shore up alliances, that was what pissed off the Westerlanders, they wanted Gemma for themselves just like the hightowers want the Tyrells.

I agree, but this is all on the assumption that Lord Walder demanded Robb hand. TBH to have a proper discussion i wish we knew more of what was said between them. Did Walder demand this, and did Cat haggle. Guess we dont know for sure. Walder did have Robb in a bad position, but had Robb made it without giving away his hand, then there are many houses he can marry into. Of course he doesnt and marries an insignificant house but for the sake of it:

Possibly Margaery

Possibly a Royce or other strong Vale house to get them on side and possibly sway the Vale to them

Possibly a Hightower

Possibly a stronger Western house to get a foothold there etc etc

Of course none of this happened, some of it would likely never have, and tbh im more hung up on my other point about Cat going to Bitterbridge then this

[Ulrik1312]

I agree, but this is all on the assumption that Lord Walder demanded Robb hand. TBH to have a proper discussion i wish we knew more of what was said between them. Did Walder demand this, and did Cat haggle. Guess we dont know for sure. Walder did have Robb in a bad position, but had Robb made it without giving away his hand, then there are many houses he can marry into. Of course he doesnt and marries an insignificant house but for the sake of it:

Possibly Margaery

Possibly a Royce or other strong Vale house to get them on side and possibly sway the Vale to them

Possibly a Hightower

Possibly a stronger Western house to get a foothold there etc etc

Of course none of this happened, some of it would likely never have, and tbh im more hung up on my other point about Cat going to Bitterbridge then this

If I remember right, Lord Walder heavily implied what he wanted, saying that Edmure (a heir of a Great House) rejected his daughters, and how nobody wanted to foster his children or marry them (the last part could not be true I don't have my books). So he expected that at least he could get a one or two good marriages out of this situation.

And since Sansa (already betrothed to JoFfrey) ,Rickon (he is to young) and Bran (crippled) were not available, Robb and Arya become the prospects for his children.

[Ran]

Catelyn outright says that she and Walder "haggled":

The rest was only haggling.

So, there you go. They bargained, work out a deal that both sides would accept, and it just so happened that Robb marrying a Frey daughter (which is, I should repeat, not in fact a bad match -- the Freys are one of the more powerful houses of the riverlands) was part of that final bargain. You can argue about who got the better end of the stick, but the fact is that the Starks had no real choices and Catelyn seems to have done all she could do to make the best possible deal.

[Frey Pie]

Catelyn outright says that she and Walder "haggled":

So, there you go. They bargained, work out a deal that both sides would accept, and it just so happened that Robb marrying a Frey daughter (which is, I should repeat, not in fact a bad match -- the Freys are one of the more powerful houses of the riverlands) was part of that final bargain. You can argue about who got the better end of the stick, but the fact is that the Starks had no real choices and Catelyn seems to have done all she could do to make the best possible deal.

Alright fair enough. Id love to see more of the talk-the rest was haggling doesnt give us much to work on. I agree the Freys arent a bad match, but looking from another perspective they should be natural allies already, as Tywin has invaded their homeland and Robb is here to help. Theyve also hung a few Lannister already IIRC. But this is Walder, and he does have a familial connection to Tywin so im guessing we are correct to assume he required the Northern heir to seal the deal and open his gates

In any case does anyone want to respond to my other question on Bitterbridge? Specifically how things could have gone down there, given what i said in my earlier post as to the obvious innocent Cat, and the availability of the Northern/Riverland Kingdom for a powerful ally? I really do think this decision not to go and at least try to talk is overlooked

Repeating what i said for ease:

Anyone who thinks for a moment would see that Cat didnt kill Renly:

His armour was cut up in an unbelievable way-couldnt possibly have been Cat

Cat had been his guest and shown no animosity towards him for days-not everyone feels that guest rights can be so easily thrown away

Brienne loved him

Cat tried to negotiate a truce between the brothers

She came to make an ally, not an enemy-whats her motive? To give Tywin or Stannis more men?

Cats a Tully and a Stark, both known to be honourable houses. Additionally her husband was Renlys brothers best friend, known to be honourable to a fault and also known to Renly

Cats men stayed with Renly and had no animosity between them, showing willingness to cooperate

Stannis threatened Renly, he is in all cases the most likely and easily blamed. Cat believes it was Stannis, as does Brienne. Would the Tyrells not swallow this?

Or does Loras have such sway that he can force Mace and all his bannermen to overlook all this and kill/imprison Cat against all the evidence and character analysis? I cant imagine Cat being in real danger, unless Loras goes berserker again

[Castel]

I agree, but this is all on the assumption that Lord Walder demanded Robb hand. TBH to have a proper discussion i wish we knew more of what was said between them. Did Walder demand this, and did Cat haggle. Guess we dont know for sure. Walder did have Robb in a bad position, but had Robb made it without giving away his hand, then there are many houses he can marry into. Of course he doesnt and marries an insignificant house but for the sake of it:

Of course, it would help if he didn't have to marry a Frey but his bargaining position,combined with Lord Walder's shrewdness and his knowledge of his own power here makes me think that Cat got what she could. Of course, this depends on how you feel about Cat.

Possibly Margaery

Possibly a Royce or other strong Vale house to get them on side and possibly sway the Vale to them

Possibly a Hightower

Possibly a stronger Western house to get a foothold there etc etc

Now we're descending into "shoulda,coulda, woulda" territory but it's interesting so we off we go. Of those only the Tyrells are a good prospect. No one sane is going against Tywin to support some northerner that will leave and drop the whole mess on them once the war is over. Are there any Hightowers or Royces? With the Royces though, it's still Lysa that rules the Vale and she's not budging. Why would they risk being on the wrong side of this?

Anyone who thinks for a moment would see that Cat didnt kill Renly:

His armour was cut up in an unbelievable way-couldnt possibly have been Cat

Cat had been his guest and shown no animosity towards him for days-not everyone feels that guest rights can be so easily thrown away

Brienne loved him

Cat tried to negotiate a truce between the brothers

She came to make an ally, not an enemy-whats her motive? To give Tywin or Stannis more men?

Cats a Tully and a Stark, both known to be honourable houses. Additionally her husband was Renlys brothers best friend, known to be honourable to a fault and also known to Renly

Cats men stayed with Renly and had no animosity between them, showing willingness to cooperate

Stannis threatened Renly, he is in all cases the most likely and easily blamed. Cat believes it was Stannis, as does Brienne. Would the Tyrells not swallow this?

But Cat did have a reason to kill Renly, Renly did in fact say that he'd fight to reincorporate the new Northern Kingdom.Her mission was a failure by that point, Renly had refused an alliance.

But now Cat has to convince the men that Robb is a better ally than Stannis. This might be easier for the Tyrell men but the Stormlands men? How do they know that she didn't kill Renly precisely for this? And if Stannis killed Renly what if it was a sign?

I honestly can't tell how it would go.

[SeanSnow]

To me, her attitude towards Jon has never been an issue, it rather adds to her humanity. Nothing wrong with two good guys that cannot go along due to circumstances.

What she said to Jon was horrible

Its the same to me, but a lot of Jon fanatics despise her because of what she said to him in AGOT

Dislike towards Cat originates from what she said to Jon but its more because it was so early in the book and we did not know Cat well that it gave her character a lasting cold impression.

So I was never really a fan of Cat but I respected her wisdom in ASoS.

[PatrickStormborn]

So what is the difference then?

I think it's because she doesn't leave you with any fist pumping moments. For many of us there is that moment when we fall in love with a character. That moment or line where you just say yes, I'm in. In this way Cat doesn't win over many readers because she never really gets a chance to make up for her few mistakes.

But I think with this thread, we can officially put the theory of general Cat hate to bed.

Wait, defending your son from a hired assassin doesn't count as a "fist pumping" moment? It's far more badass than most of the frequently cited "best moments" by the more popular characters, IMO.

[Castel]

Wait, defending your son from a hired assassin doesn't count as a "fist pumping" moment? It's far more badass than most of the frequently cited "best moments" by the more popular characters, IMO.

I assume that such actions are taken for granted in fantasy.

[PatrickStormborn]

I assume that such actions are taken for granted in fantasy.

Perhaps... But one of the most popular moments in the series appears to be "Edd, fetch me a block". It was an awesome moment, I agree, but I fail to see how it's any more worthy of a "fist pump" than what Catelyn does, particularly when we consider that Jon's execution of Janos Slynt would be seen as standard in that time period.

[Castel]

Perhaps... But one of the most popular moments in the series appears to be "Edd, fetch me a block". It was an awesome moment, I agree, but I fail to see how it's any more worthy of a "fist pump" than what Catelyn does, particularly when we consider that Jon's execution of Janos Slynt would be seen as standard in that time period.

*shrugs*

Slynt was an asshole,who hurt two protagonists who had avoided his just desserts for five book. The assassin was a random fool. As for Jon's actions being standard, do women in Westeros just step aside when their kids are about to be killed? Do they have some strange sort of brain that makes them different from women in the real world?

Perhaps Cat's actions should be considered as heroic.But I've found that talking about "should" with fanbase reactions will simply drive you crazy. People like what they like. Some characters make a greater impression and so their actions take on a bigger meaning. "Should" has little to do with it, people like what they like.

[Frey Pie]

Of course, it would help if he didn't have to marry a Frey but his bargaining position,combined with Lord Walder's shrewdness and his knowledge of his own power here makes me think that Cat got what she could. Of course, this depends on how you feel about Cat.

Now we're descending into "shoulda,coulda, woulda" territory but it's interesting so we off we go. Of those only the Tyrells are a good prospect. No one sane is going against Tywin to support some northerner that will leave and drop the whole mess on them once the war is over. Are there any Hightowers or Royces? With the Royces though, it's still Lysa that rules the Vale and she's not budging. Why would they risk being on the wrong side of this?

But Cat did have a reason to kill Renly, Renly did in fact say that he'd fight to reincorporate the new Northern Kingdom.Her mission was a failure by that point, Renly had refused an alliance.

But now Cat has to convince the men that Robb is a better ally than Stannis. This might be easier for the Tyrell men but the Stormlands men? How do they know that she didn't kill Renly precisely for this? And if Stannis killed Renly what if it was a sign?

I honestly can't tell how it would go.

As i said im not really interested in the whole marriage thing, although i do think word of Robb hand up for grabs would tempt a few Vale Lords. We know they already want to go to him, this is an added incentive.

In any case moving on. A sign of what? What happens to those who go against Stannis? If they were afraid of that they wouldnt side with the Lannisters either would they? And Cat is a likely assassin? The wife of the most honorable man on the continent, from a noble house whos very words have honour in them? And she could have cut through his armour? Or gotten Brienne to kill him and then saw through it? It doesnt add up and this is evident

If Cat wants to weaken her enemies shes better off letting them fight. The battle would have left thousands dead on both sides due to Renlys stupidity in battle. Then she can attempt to assassinate those who are left.

If you think it could go either way, is it not then at least worth it for Cat to go and talk? The potential gains far outweigh the risks

[werewolf]

Sticking to this point, I was pleasantly surprised at how she believed in the direwolves when Ned, who is a Stark and Northman to the core, looked at them as just pets.

MILF in the North ftw!

Sticking to this point, I was pleasantly surprised at how she believed in the direwolves when Ned, who is a Stark and Northman to the core, looked at them as just pets.

MILF in the North ftw!

When Catelyn tells him of the assassin's attack on Bran, Ned realises that the Gods might have sent the direwolves and that he may have made a grave mistake by killing Lady. Ned is sharper than Catelyn on the whole.

[Ran]

Ned sharper than Catelyn? :lol:

[Éadaoin]

Ned sharper than Catelyn? :lol:

Yeah - I did a double take at that. Ned is one of my favorites, and I love him dearly, but I don't think he's sharper than Catelyn.

[Winter's Knight]

When Catelyn tells him of the assassin's attack on Bran, Ned realises that the Gods might have sent the direwolves and that he may have made a grave mistake by killing Lady. Ned is sharper than Catelyn on the whole.

Well, now I've heard everything.