imbs Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Only thing i don't (or rather didn't) like about cat (who i believe is a fantastic and interesting character) is the way she argues for Ned to go be Robert's hand. IIrc she does this because of superstition based on the dead direwolf n stag. On the one hand superstition is lame and on the other we have self-fulfilling prophecies. But yea considering it's westeros we are talking about the superstition is fine (since you know, there are actually old powers like magic that are evident enough, hell even the wall is pretty convincing in that respect) but i still don't like that she didn't stop and think maybe just maybe it will be Ned's presence so close to KL that validates the omen from the first chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Yes, I like the subtle way gender questions are raised in her arc. I always thought that the whole Jon story was also so troubeling to her because it was the first time she deeply and openly felt the constraints of being a woman in Westeros. In that respect, it's interesting that Hoster apparently treated her much like a son in many ways, teaching her about tactics and logistics and so on, until Edmure was born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 In that respect, it's interesting that Hoster apparently treated her much like a son in many ways, teaching her about tactics and logistics and so on, until Edmure was born.Perhaps not so strange. Balon treated Asha like a son after Theon left. The Lord of Tarth let Brienne follow martial training eventually. The Mormont women tend to train in arms. I guess if some fathers don't have sons available they tend to treat their eldest daughters more like sons to groom them as heirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falling Snow Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Respect to Cat as the brave mother defending her offspring... still I cannot forgive her decision to take Tyrion prisoner. It may retain some logic, but how is it possible she wasn't able to foresee that kidnapping the Imp, a Lannister, would put Ned in such risky waters?As for her other decisions, I'm fine with them, and love her as Lady Stoneheart as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 but how is it possible she wasn't able to foresee that kidnapping the Imp, a Lannister, would put Ned in such risky waters?Because she could forsee, based on the information she had, that leaving him to go to King's Landing would put Ned in even riskier waters.Remember, she didn't want to confront him, to have to make that choice. She was glad that she was well-hidden from his sight and could, with luck, simply slip out of the inn without his realizing she was there. Marillion took that from her, and she had to make a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Because she could forsee, based on the information she had, that leaving him to go to King's Landing would put Ned in even riskier waters.Remember, she didn't want to confront him, to have to make that choice. She was glad that she was well-hidden from his sight and could, with luck, simply slip out of the inn without his realizing she was there. Marillion took that from her, and she had to make a choice.I've always thought that was a stupid decision on Catelyn's part (particularly, in view of its consequences), but do you think that's just being wise with hindsight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falling Snow Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Because she could forsee, based on the information she had, that leaving him to go to King's Landing would put Ned in even riskier waters.Remember, she didn't want to confront him, to have to make that choice. She was glad that she was well-hidden from his sight and could, with luck, simply slip out of the inn without his realizing she was there. Marillion took that from her, and she had to make a choice.I have to admit I am a little biased (well probably more than just a little) about how the whole thing affected Ned's fate. I am pretty sure I will always despise Cat for this decision, but it's something more linked to how I feel about it rather than complaining her for her choices being overtly dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I've always thought that was a stupid decision on Catelyn's part (particularly, in view of its consequences), but do you think that's just being wise with hindsight?I think so. A lot of the reaction to Cat is about hindsight, because a lot of her decisions work out badly. But often that's through no fault of her own: she's put in a situation of choosing between two bad options. Whatever she does, it'll work out badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Judah Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 Yep, see also Maege Mormont for this who pretty much admits that she would have done the same. I honestly always thought that exchanging Jaime for Sansa from the beginning would not have been that stupid. Jaime might be a great warrior but as general he is not that good. Besides, given his membership of the KG Tywin would not have been able to use him to secure an marriage alliance. Sansa on the other hand could have been instrumental to secure an alliance with one of the great houses.I really love this thread. There is so much Cat hate on this board that I really enjoy to find one place where we Cat lovers can gather. I also like her pragmatism and her strength so much and I never thought her character was "whiny" and that she was "stupid". Even when she did things that left me a bit uncomfortable as modern feminist (like first evaluating Jeyne´s hips and ability to bear children) I totally got where she was coming from (in this case from the insight that only the birth of a heir could mend some of the damage Robb´s wedding had done)Ohh sweet summer child...I hope you never have to encounter the Cat=Great Other, or Tully Blood= pollution of awesome Stark gene pole threads.Besides, I do not get the argument that Cat´s resurrection was a good thing for her. Being undead she cannot move on and has to deal with the torturous grief of losing most of her family all of the time. If this is not hell, then I do not know....Robb used releasing the King Slayer to his advantage as well, he conveniently sprung news about his marriage to Cat when he knew she had no strong position to speak against the marriage. Cat's action were not to blame for the RW, that was 100% Robb who gave up 4000 Frey men for maybe 60 Westerling men of questionable allegiance. Strange how at the end his last thought was not about his wife, it was about Grey WInd. I would love to get into some more in-depth discussion about that, maybe another thread though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Judah Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 I think so. A lot of the reaction to Cat is about hindsight, because a lot of her decisions work out badly. But often that's through no fault of her own: she's put in a situation of choosing between two bad options. Whatever she does, it'll work out badly.I admit, I used to judge her along these lines which was completely unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 It's rare on this board to see someone admitting he's been wrong, kudos for this, Lion of Judah. Catelyn is awesome, of course. Most of her decisions were sound at the time she made them. If she had half the luck of someone like Tyrion or Jon Snow, she'd be seen in much better light here by all those who only judge by result and with the benefit of hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I think so. A lot of the reaction to Cat is about hindsight, because a lot of her decisions work out badly. But often that's through no fault of her own: she's put in a situation of choosing between two bad options. Whatever she does, it'll work out badly.Also, all my sympathies were with Tyrion, at that point, which naturally made me even more unsympathetic towards Catelyn.I think that even in her points of view, Catelyn comes over as a bit of a cold fish, which led me to judge her unfairly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Only thing i don't (or rather didn't) like about cat (who i believe is a fantastic and interesting character) is the way she argues for Ned to go be Robert's hand. IIrc she does this because of superstition based on the dead direwolf n stag. She does? I thought she argued that it would be an honour and that Ned could not refuse. Not due to a dead stag. Plus that Robert had offered a betrothal between Joffrey and Sansa, effectively promising to make Ned's daughter the next Queen. In that situation, refusing the position as Hand would be rude and discourteous.After Bran's fall she argued that Ned needed to stay instead though. So there are both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imbs Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 She does? I thought she argued that it would be an honour and that Ned could not refuse. Not due to a dead stag. Plus that Robert had offered a betrothal between Joffrey and Sansa, effectively promising to make Ned's daughter the next Queen. In that situation, refusing the position as Hand would be rude and discourteous.After Bran's fall she argued that Ned needed to stay instead though. So there are both sides.Erm I don't wanna commit here it has been a while since i read this part, but iirc Catelyn was at least partly motivated to argue because of the stag thing. It's in her thoughts, she deliberately leaves it out of her arguments to Ned because she knew it wouldn't hold any weight with him. I don't have the books around so i can't check; I could easily be wrong here. I just remember thinking those thoughts as I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therealbando Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Sorry, did not want to imply that. English is my second language and sometimes I am a bit clumsy with my wording :-)Well I could have specified that I like Cat in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Storm Queen Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Robb used releasing the King Slayer to his advantage as well, he conveniently sprung news about his marriage to Cat when he knew she had no strong position to speak against the marriage. Cat's action were not to blame for the RW, that was 100% Robb who gave up 4000 Frey men for maybe 60 Westerling men of questionable allegiance. Strange how at the end his last thought was not about his wife, it was about Grey WInd. I would love to get into some more in-depth discussion about that, maybe another thread though.What about a Catelyn re-read project? I really enjoyed the ones for Sansa, Arya and Tyrion, so why not one for our Lady Stark?Imho analysis of Catelyn often suffers of the fact that it happens in the usual threads thus the discussion is often limited to her treatment of Jon and/or her actions towards Jaime and Tyrion. A more in-depth reading would be fantastic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Erm I don't wanna commit here it has been a while since i read this part, but iirc Catelyn was at least partly motivated to argue because of the stag thing. It's in her thoughts, she deliberately leaves it out of her arguments to Ned because she knew it wouldn't hold any weight with him. I don't have the books around so i can't check; I could easily be wrong here. I just remember thinking those thoughts as I read it.I'm pretty sure that Ned argues in the opposite direction because of the stag. The scene that they find the direwolves is pretty tense, everyone knows what it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 There seems to be a lack of acknowledgement that Catelyn has always been put in the worst positions and is never given any breaks. The story itself, intentional on the part of the author, is written in a way that works against her at every turn. Her decisions and assumptions, always well reasoned under her circumstances and the working knowledge she has at the time, do turn out to be wrong of course. That said, we are not supposed to actually pin the blame on her for that fact. See, the point of her story is that it's a tragedy, and that's how how tragedy goes. Isn't that point obvious?Alternatively, when the author wants us to read a character who is making bad decisions and bad assumptions, he is pretty explicit about it (see Lannister, Cersei). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 What about a Catelyn re-read project? I really enjoyed the ones for Sansa, Arya and Tyrion, so why not one for our Lady Stark?Imho analysis of Catelyn often suffers of the fact that it happens in the usual threads thus the discussion is often limited to her treatment of Jon and/or her actions towards Jaime and Tyrion. A more in-depth reading would be fantastic!Winter's Knight and I were pondering one, but I think we sort of ran out of time. Maybe once the Arya and Tyrion re-reads are done Catelyn could be of interest? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Éadaoin Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Wow, a Cat thread that hasn't devolved into utter nonsense? This warms my cold dead heart, and just made my afternoon.eta: and Cat is awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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