Some respect for Lady Catelyn

[MotherAnduin]

I love Catelyn as a character but i do not agree with her actions at all. She made too many mistakes too many times. I can understand why she did some of them but the other mistakes were baffling. I was tearing my hair out when she went from one folly to other. I hated the way she treated Edmure.

This was the Imp's work, Catelyn suspected; it stank of the same sort of cunning he had displayed at the Eyrie. Once, she would have named Tyrion the least dangerous of the Lannisters. Now she was not so certain

And in the very next chapter she thinks

the way Tyrion Lannister had somehow seduced that sellsword from her service to his own. The dwarf is too clever by half. She could not imagine how he had survived the high road after Lysa had sent him from the Vale, yet it did not surprise her. He had no part in Ned's murder, at the least. And he came to my defense when the clansmen attacked us. If I could trust his word . . .

I could never understand this. She released Jaime on the oath of two oathbreakers.

In addition i could never understand why she asked Ned to trust Littlefinger when

I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off.

If she believed that people do not change then why did she admonish Ned that Robert would be a changed man?

Catelyn has her moments where she is very sweet and witty.

"Another nephew?" The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house.

Robb stood a little taller. "Put one man in the sickroom, night and day, one outside the door, two at the bottom of the stairs. No one sees Bran without my warrant or my mother's."

"As you say, m'lord."

"Do it now," Catelyn suggested.

She has her moments and moments of utter failure. But her failings vastly overshadow her victories. I love the MILF for this imperfection One of the best characters in the series. However, i found Lady Stoneheart to be a vast improvement over Catelyn.

[therealbando]

Can the MILF in the North become Catelyn's nickname? Along the lines of kingslayer, halfman, the mountain that rides etc? please please please, those exceedingly "ripe" breasts deserve more recognition.

I think it`s better than Lady Stoneheart...

[TalalOfDorne]

Respect and love her vey much. She shows that she is one of the strongest women in the series without having to hold a sword or be a warrior, and shows that she is one of the smartest characters in the series without being a king. She has always tried to do her best to keep her family together and safe. For a person who saw her family rumble in front of her she handled it very well. coping with her losses and still trying to strengthen her sons cause.

She will always be my favorite character.

[Axrendale]

But the start of the Red Wedding planning took place before Tywin knew Jaime wasn't dead? In Arya ACOK we see Roose Bolton getting some "news" in Harrenhal that seem awfully suspicious plus Roose organises the Duskendale fiasco then too, and it's not until Roose gets his hands on Jaime when the Bloody Mummers bring him in that Tywin should know Jaime is safe. Before that, Jaime is not safe and had Tywin thought the Red Wedding hung on Jaime being safe, then I am not convinced by the time scale. Tyrion also thinks that Tywin has left Jaime for dead as early as late AGOT/early ACOK, if I remember correctly, so the link between releasing Jaime - cause of Red Wedding I think is tenuous at best, and most likely not supported. Probably a topic for another thread, but it's interesting all the same to try and figure out the time line.

There is a difference between the establishment of the tacit alliance between Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton, and the moment when they began plotting the Red Wedding.

When Jaime returns to King's Landing and meets with his father, Tywin tells him that he learned about his release from Riverrun very shortly after he got out, by virtue of Varys' spy network. It wasn't until after Jaime was gone from Riverrun that Walder Frey learned about Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling, and thus agreed to murder the Young Wolf. If Jaime had still been a captive, it seems fairly certain that Tywin would not have been so eager to order an assassination that would have left his son in the hands of the Tullys, who would have been free to exact vengance on him.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

I think it`s better than Lady Stoneheart...

Pretty much anything would have been better than Lady Stoneheart, but now she's here I just hope she culls plenty of Freys.

[Lyanna Stark]

There is a difference between the establishment of the tacit alliance between Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton, and the moment when they began plotting the Red Wedding.

When Jaime returns to King's Landing and meets with his father, Tywin tells him that he learned about his release from Riverrun very shortly after he got out, by virtue of Varys' spy network. It wasn't until after Jaime was gone from Riverrun that Walder Frey learned about Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling, and thus agreed to murder the Young Wolf. If Jaime had still been a captive, it seems fairly certain that Tywin would not have been so eager to order an assassination that would have left his son in the hands of the Tullys, who would have been free to exact vengance on him.

The point is though, that just because Jaime was not in a dungeon in Riverrun doesn't mean he was anywhere near *safe*. In fact, it would have been more likely that he would have been captured again.

The Freys also came up with the idea to the Red Wedding, but the betrayal of Roose Bolton and the Freys thoughts of switching sides most likely came when Stannis lost at the Blackwater and the Tyrell-Lannister alliance was created. The only question was which form it would take, which was something Walder Frey came up with. However, I think people are placing far too much import on Jaime. If anything, Tywin is a big fan of realpolitik. If Tyrion thought he'd given up on Jaime than maybe he had, more or less. The fact that Jaime managed to come back was a bonus, surely, and made it easier for Tywin, but to think the entire Red Wedding hangs on Cat's shoulders is just wrong.

If Robb had still agreed to marry a Frey, then the issue would have had to be resolved in another way if Roose and the Freys wanted to switch sides. And Cat had nothing to do with Robb's decision. So I'd say blaming Cat for the Red Wedding is definitely barking up the wrong tree. Tywin already had betrayal in motion before Jaime was released, with Roose and the whole Duskendale fiasco. The Red Wedding itself was cooked up by the Freys due to Robb's actions with Jeyne Westerling, which themselves happen late ACOK. Cat tells Jaime that Robb has taken the Crag from the Westerlings in the same chapter she hears that Bran and Rickon are dead. In the chapter where Arya hears the same from Roose Bolton we also have Elmar crying since the Freys are "dishonoured". This should be around a similar time, and that's when Cat releases Jaime, too. Hence Roose's and the Freys turncloaking comes pretty early, and well before Jaime is "secured" in Harrenhal.

In this, Tywin is taking a huge, huge risk in that he's then betting everything on that Jaime will be returned to him despite being lost in the Riverlands. Plus at this point, Robb has already taken the Crag and the Westerling plot to have Robb sleep with Jeyne has already taken place. Jaime is then released *after* the Westerling plot was hatched and carried out.

[Mr Hodor]

She released Jamie because she trusted Tyrion to send her daughters back. Tyrion had earned her trust in Vale and by sending Ned's bones back.

And i dont think that Jamie's release was the point when tywin started plotting RW. it started when Robb married Jeyne. However Tywin would have gone through RW with or without jamie. Jamie would be in riverrun and not in twins during RW

[Brienne Of Bombay]

I've always loved Catelyn. She is pragmatic and level headed. The mistakes she made were due to grief about her children and I can't blame her for that. I can't even imagine how tragic it would be for a mother to lose her children. She trusted LF as she hadn't ever interacted with him after Riverrun and had no reason not to trust him. Naive I understand, but LF has fooled many a seasoned players.

I've said it before that I think Lady Stoneheart is essentially the same person as Catelyn. Cat has learnt from her past mistakes and is trying to get some justice for her losses as Stoneheart. We don't enough about Stoneheart to assume that she has none of Cat's kindness and compassion left in her.

I respect Catelyn.

[PatrickStormborn]

Can the MILF in the North become Catelyn's nickname? Along the lines of kingslayer, halfman, the mountain that rides etc? please please please, those exceedingly "ripe" breasts deserve more recognition.

No. Catelyn should not just be reduced to her appearance or sexuality.

[Mr Hodor]

I've always loved Catelyn. She is pragmatic and level headed. The mistakes she made were due to grief about her children and I can't blame her for that. I can't even imagine how tragic it would be for a mother to lose her children. She trusted LF as she hadn't ever interacted with him after Riverrun and had no reason not to trust him. Naive I understand, but LF has fooled many a seasoned players.

I've said it before that I think Lady Stoneheart is essentially the same person as Catelyn. Cat has learnt from her past mistakes and is trying to get some justice for her losses as Stoneheart. We don't enough about Stoneheart to assume that she has none of Cat's kindness and compassion left in her.

I respect Catelyn.

i find them very different. Catelyn was always warm and caring woman. Lady stoneheart is a creature of vengeance from her treatment of Brienne and Pod.

ETA: BTW i like Lady stoneheart more than i liked Cat. Death has improved her a lot. Though what she do once all freys are dead remains to be seen.

[Axrendale]

If Robb had still agreed to marry a Frey, then the issue would have had to be resolved in another way if Roose and the Freys wanted to switch sides. And Cat had nothing to do with Robb's decision. So I'd say blaming Cat for the Red Wedding is definitely barking up the wrong tree. Tywin already had betrayal in motion before Jaime was released, with Roose and the whole Duskendale fiasco. The Red Wedding itself was cooked up by the Freys due to Robb's actions with Jeyne Westerling, which themselves happen late ACOK. Cat tells Jaime that Robb has taken the Crag from the Westerlings in the same chapter she hears that Bran and Rickon are dead. In the chapter where Arya hears the same from Roose Bolton we also have Elmar crying since the Freys are "dishonoured". This should be around a similar time, and that's when Cat releases Jaime, too. Hence Roose's and the Freys turncloaking comes pretty early, and well before Jaime is "secured" in Harrenhal.

In this, Tywin is taking a huge, huge risk in that he's then betting everything on that Jaime will be returned to him despite being lost in the Riverlands. Plus at this point, Robb has already taken the Crag and the Westerling plot to have Robb sleep with Jeyne has already taken place. Jaime is then released *after* the Westerling plot was hatched and carried out.

The Red Wedding might have been cooked up and carried out by the Freys, but it never would have happened if Tywin hadn't been at least tangentially involved. As Tyrion says, there is no doubt that Walder Frey was perfectly capable of hatching this ugly chicken by himself, but he never would have lifted a finger if he hadn't recieved a promise of protection from Tywin - anymore than Roose Bolton would have carried out his own plot to undermine the Starks if he hadn't been confident of recieving Lannister backing to assume control of the North in the aftermath.

Even before Jaime arrived at Harrenhal, Tywin knew that he had esacaped from Riverrun. The fact that he was not yet safe was not so important as the fact that he was no longer in the hands of the people who would be the primary victims of the Red Wedding, which meant that Tywin had no need to fear retaliation of any kind. It was not a decisive factor in the proceedings, but it was an important one - just as Theon Greyjoy's return to Pyke removed the last obstacle from his father's plans to invade the North, the release of Jaime eliminated the one thing that might have stayed Tywin's hand.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

No. Catelyn should not just be reduced to her appearance or sexuality.

No she shouldn't.

But at the same time, her appearance and sexuality should not go unappreciated!

[Lyanna Stark]

Even before Jaime arrived at Harrenhal, Tywin knew that he had esacaped from Riverrun. The fact that he was not yet safe was not so important as the fact that he was no longer in the hands of the people who would be the primary victims of the Red Wedding, which meant that Tywin had no need to fear retaliation of any kind. It was not a decisive factor in the proceedings, but it was an important one - just as Theon Greyjoy's return to Pyke removed the last obstacle from his father's plans to invade the North, the release of Jaime eliminated the one thing that might have stayed Tywin's hand.

But that makes no sense if we assume that Tywin was behind the Westerling plot which led to the Freys being really pissed off. He was clearly working on some heavy handed betrayal before Cat let Jaime out. The only thing that wasn't in place was the form. That Tywin was planning to have something done about Robb was clear, and also that he was better served doing something that did not involve battle, since Robb had defeated Tywin a lot in the field. Tywin is switching tactics earlier than people give him credit for, and the seed of the betrayal is planted with the Westerlings and with Roose, and via the Westerlings the Freys are brought along.

While Tywin certainly wanted Jaime as his heir, he does not *need* him as such. He already has Cersei's children there to inherit the Rock should he choose to.

[Theda Baratheon]

I bloody love Catelyn, her bad decisions (albeit very bad) are often exaggerated to the point of cartoon villain/or absolute idiot whereas all her good judgement and advice are almost always completely ignored. Thank you for making this thread. Catelyn deserves more love.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

i find them very different. Catelyn was always warm and caring woman. Lady stoneheart is a creature of vengeance from her treatment of Brienne and Pod.

ETA: BTW i like Lady stoneheart more than i liked Cat. Death has improved her a lot. Though what she do once all freys are dead remains to be seen.

Most people find them different! :)

I think the reason she treated Pod and Brienne that way is because she thought Jaime had a hand in the RW and she believes Brienne has turned Lannister. She is trying to punish those involved in the RW and is misguided about Brienne and Pod IMO.

[Mladen]

The strangest thing about direwolves is that Catelyn noticed how attached they are to her kids, long before Eddard. She was even worried about stag killing the female direwolf, something that neither Ned or anyone else cared.

Cat`s release of Jaime is why I respect her. Come on, what mother wouldn`t do that?

[Ran]

Tywin was clearly already plotting the Red Wedding before he knew Jaime was freed. Lets remember what Tyrion said way, way back in AGoT: his father had given Jaime up for dead. He no longer considered him part of his plans. He would not be held emotionally hostage. It's just not the Lannister way.

She trusted Tyrion's word in good part because he made his statement in public, before the court. A Lannister might lie in private, but they care too much about appearances to lie before the whole realm (or so she thought). And she was right as far as that goes. Appearances matter a lot to them.

The only difference Jaime remaining imprisoned would have made is that the mad Lady Catelyn would probably have been put in a padded cell and kept alive in her insanity and misery to try and trade her for Jaime.

[Axrendale]

@ Lyanna Stark and Ran -

I think that I'll concede the point on this. Jaime's continued captivity would not have dramatically altered events - though it would have led to differences in some small, important ways (like the effective truncation of his storyline).

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Huge respect for Lady Catelyn!

"Robb will set aside his crown if you and your brother will do the same," she said, hoping it was true.

She would make it true if she must; Robb would listen to her, even if his lords would not.

"Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them."

Some really avant-guard political thinking.

Catelyn for president!

[Theda Baratheon]

The only difference Jaime remaining imprisoned would have made is that the mad Lady Catelyn would probably have been put in a padded cell and kept alive in her insanity and misery to try and trade her for Jaime.

I don't know what would have been more heart-breaking to me. A completely maddened, grief-stricken Lady Catelyn, or her death+Lady Stoneheart.