Some respect for Lady Catelyn

[Frey Pie]

Catelyn is one of the most complex characters in the entire series. Her words may be family, duty, honor, yet her story line puts those exact words in opposition to each other. I don't expect everyone to love her (well, I do, but....), but the negativity heaped towards her is baffling.

Agreed

[Ran]

The who commanded at Bitterbridge? Garlan?

Garlan was at Highgarden. It was Tarly and Loras, basically.

Who was it that LF talked to?

Mace Tyrell, in Highgarden.

Randyll killed the men Stannis sent to claim the men at Bitterbridge.

Not that we know of. Parmen Crane was imprisoned, probably Errol Florent as well. But what we're told specifically is that Tarly put "quite a few" to the sword -- almost certainly the members of the army at Bitterbridge who wanted to go over to join Stannis, or to join their lords. Remember, Renly took almost all his cavalry, but left his foot behind.

[Frey Pie]

There must have been many men killed at Bitterbridge. Id love to know numbers

In that case then a detour to HG is needed, if indeed time allows for it. LF seems to always have time so im think Cat might be able to get there aswel. This in fact is probably a better option as she aviods Randyll and Loras, has a chance to talk straight to Mace, who was treated well and fairly by Ned, and Olenna may have a chance to influence her son

[Ran]

You're still ignoring the fact that she and Brienne are prime suspects 1 and 2 for the murder of Renly. Anyone who heard any of the rumors who came across them might want to go and murder them!

It'd be insanity to go waltzing off to Highgarden, and I can't understand why you just seem to wave your hand at it as if it doesn't matter. Look, in the end, Catelyn's thought process is explicitly clear. That she and Brienne were suspected is explicitly clear. You might think that even despite all that she should have risked it, and that's fine. But to me (and, I can see, to others) it simply wasn't a reasonable thing to do. Going back to Riverrun was her soundest course.

And, the other thing you're ignoring in your scenario? She would have failed!. Mace wanted a grandson on the Iron Throne. That was his ambition. Robb and the Starks cannot offer him that. The Lannisters could. The end.

[The Wolves]

I have a lot of respect for Catelyn Tully, I dislike her but I respect her and she broke my heart when she died so I have nothing but respect for her and some dislike. I think she gave Robb some great advice and I hold a lot against Catelyn but she was a great character and her story was a great(sometime irritating)read.

[Frey Pie]

And yet nobody has looked, or answered the points i made on this matter other then Castel who rightly thought that had Cat wanted to get the Tyrell alliance, she may have seen killing Renly as both a way to do this, and also keep her son safe.

Anyone who thinks for a moment would see that Cat didnt kill Renly for the following reasons:

His armour was cut up in an unbelievable way-couldnt possibly have been Cat, or even Brienne

Cat had been his guest and shown no animosity towards him for days-not everyone feels that guest rights can be so easily thrown away

Brienne loved him-obvious to many. Loras certainly knew about it

Cat tried to negotiate a truce between the brothers, not war. She wants to work together. Stannis and Renly dont

She came to make an ally, not an enemy-whats her motive? To give Tywin or Stannis more men?

Cats a Tully and a Stark, both known to be honourable houses. Additionally her husband was Renlys brothers best friend, known to be honourable to a fault and also known to Renly

Cats men stayed with Renly and had no animosity between them, showing willingness to cooperate

Cats no assassin, not by any stretch of the imagination

Stannis threatened Renly, he is in all cases the most likely and easily blamed. Cat believes it was Stannis, as does Brienne. Would the Tyrells not swallow this? Loras IIRC shifts his views to Stannis being the killer quickly

In HG this will be thought of unless they are willfully shutting their eyes to the matter. I know its a dangerous course, but war is always dangerous. Its a risk that i feel is worth taking, and so although i know Cats thought process in this i dont agree with her. When Loras was given the chance to talk to Brienne he changed his views and i feel calm heads may prevail if given the chance

And over the last few days i have given great thought to the matter, and i believe that the Starks have more to offer the Tyrells then the Lannisters do, so no i dont believe im overlooking this aspect, respectfully. Mace may want his daughter on the Throne but to get their she must marry a young psycho, or marry him, kill him, and then marry his brother, which in fact happened. The Starks and Tullys have a lot to offer, which does match up well against what the Tyrells actually get for their part in the alliance

Ran i am well aware your knowledge is superior to mine in everything ASOIAF, and so i appreciate your taking part in this discussion. Id like to reiterate that i find Cat one of the most able characters in the book, and one which is excellently written and relatable. This is just one thing that i have always been a bit confused about

[werewolf]

The case was difficult to solve not because it was complex but because it was insane and strange enough that you wouldn't immediately think that it was the likely explanation.

I agree. It required a flash of insight to assemble very indirect clues to the explanation (incest between brother and sister). I have yet to see any argument that Catelyn had more brains than Ned; all I've sen so far is dismissive statements along the lines of "You've got to be kidding." Some arguments ....

Meanwhile, with regard to Catelyn's stupidity -- her abduction of Tyrion still has me gasping with amazement. Was she incapable of reasoning out the long-term implications of abducting a member of one of the most powerful families? Did she think the Lannisters would stand still? Did she try to figure out a motive for why Tyrion might want to murder Bran? And why Tyrion would be stupid enough to lend his own Valyrian dagger to the assassin? One wonders, aye, one wonders ....

[Castel]

His armour was cut up in an unbelievable way-couldnt possibly have been Cat, or even Brienne

This is not a defense, it's the opposite. When reasoning outside of CSI people rarely jump to "couldn't have been". They jump to "was most likely" in this case that it was most likely Brienne.She's the strongest person there.It was most likely her.

Cat had been his guest and shown no animosity towards him for days-not everyone feels that guest rights can be so easily thrown away

True. But a good viper will not strike until the perfect moment. Cat was a good guest when she thought that she had something to gain from Renly, when she didn't...

Brienne loved him-obvious to many. Loras certainly knew about it

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned and all that...

Cat tried to negotiate a truce between the brothers, not war.

And she failed.

She came to make an ally, not an enemy-whats her motive? To give Tywin or Stannis more men?

To create confusion in the ranks and so try to dissolve the army? To aid Stannis, who may have decided to help her after all (highly unlikely but for the head of Renly...who knows?).

Stannis threatened Renly, he is in all cases the most likely and easily blamed. Cat believes it was Stannis, as does Brienne. Would the Tyrells not swallow this? Loras IIRC shifts his views to Stannis being the killer quickly

Maybe Cat and Stannis were in league? Maybe Cat wanted to frame Stannis and thus use the Tyrells for her own purposes?

And over the last few days i have given great thought to the matter, and i believe that the Starks have more to offer the Tyrells then the Lannisters do, so no i dont believe im overlooking this aspect, respectfully. Mace may want his daughter on the Throne but to get their she must marry a young psycho, or marry him, kill him, and then marry his brother, which in fact happened

Is Joff's psychopathy common knowledge? From afar he seems like a pretty handsome and charming guy.

The Starks just don't have the power in the South. Perhaps if Robb keeps the Riverlands he'll be forced to be more involved but it seems to me that as soon as he won he'd be gone, he hasn't seceded yet so he's not a permanent presence. The Lannisters can provide both legitimacy and support.

[mormont]

2) Her arrest of Tyrion was rash, she arrests him with no plan. Cat brings him to the vale for what? A trial by combat.

This was never Cat's plan. She had no intention that Tyrion should be tried in the Vale at all, and it's his idea to go for trial by combat.

She never should have let Lysa/Tyrion control that situation.

Also, she shouldn't have let Stannis kill Renly by sorcery right in front of her.

It's made explicitly clear that Cat has no choice about Lysa taking her prisoner from her: she's infuriated by it, but powerless to prevent it. She protests: what else can she do? She's not in a position to threaten Lysa or march out of there with Tyrion in tow.

[Frey Pie]

This is not a defense, it's the opposite. When reasoning outside of CSI people rarely jump to "couldn't have been". They jump to "was most likely" in this case that it was most likely Brienne.She's the strongest person there.It was most likely her.

True. But a good viper will not strike until the perfect moment. Cat was a good guest when she thought that she had something to gain from Renly, when she didn't...

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned and all that...

And she failed.

To create confusion in the ranks and so try to dissolve the army? To aid Stannis, who may have decided to help her after all (highly unlikely but for the head of Renly...who knows?).

Maybe Cat and Stannis were in league? Maybe Cat wanted to frame Stannis and thus use the Tyrells for her own purposes?

Is Joff's psychopathy common knowledge? From afar he seems like a pretty handsome and charming guy.

The Starks just don't have the power in the South. Perhaps if Robb keeps the Riverlands he'll be forced to be more involved but it seems to me that as soon as he won he'd be gone, he hasn't seceded yet so he's not a permanent presence. The Lannisters can provide both legitimacy and support.

Brienne is constantly overlooked, and scoffed at just because shes a woman. While i agree the screw may turn on her, this doesnt involve Lady Cat. If they go down the scorned lover route then it is even less likely. I agree on face-value it may look like Cat employed Brienne or at least helped her, but this stands completely contrary to her, and her two families. Character profiles are also extremely important in judging

It doesnt matter that she failed. The best thing for Robb was for Stannis and Renly to kill eachother so he can deal with Tywin and Balon. Cat tries to stop this and was more reasonable and less war-mongering then either. And really Cat isnt an assassin-she doesnt even have full mobility in her hand. This is clear. In any case why would she be stuipid enough to cut the head of a snake when another will appear-Mace, Loras etc?

Stannis was never going to support the Starks, or even allow Robb keep his crown which is a must for Cat. Even the slightest bit of thought on this matter would sho this unless they thought Cat was a complete imbecile. As for Joff, im sure there are rumours and a little digging would uncover alot. Im sure his rep isnt pristine

Thanks for posting back with well articulated arguments though Castel. I agree that many of your points may be brought up in a hypothetical trial of sorts, but that with any amount of thought the judges would find that ot just doesnt all add up. Now, wether they takle the time to think is another issue, but im thinking Cats position as a High Lady, and as an envoy would secure her some rights

As for the Lannister they offer around 15000 men fresh from defeat, and a few thousand city guards who run from battle. They offer an invaded homeland and no gold mines. They offer a history of harsh ruling, and regocide. They offer a starving city and the Starks, Tullys and Baratheons as enemies. They offer a meaningless seat on a council and a lesser role in a partnership where the Tyrells are always going to take the brunt of the work and losses. Robb may be a Northerner, but he has as much support in the South as Tywin does. Even some smallfolk of KL shouted his name, while cursing Joff and all Lannisters, people who have never seen him. Add to this the military and financial power he has and hes a worthy ally. Mace wouldnt even have to bend his knee to Robb, who only wants what he already has. Theres also the spoils of war to consider, which given what the Tyrells received, im certain Robb could have done far better.

And yes i know he wanted his daughter as Queen, but there are other ways he could have managed this, or even forget about this and go on to greater things for his family

[mormont]

Anyone who thinks for a moment would see that Cat didnt kill Renly for the following reasons:

His armour was cut up in an unbelievable way-couldnt possibly have been Cat, or even Brienne

Who could it have been, then?

The trouble here is that when someone dies by apparently 'unbelievable' means, it can no longer be an alibi to say 'it would be impossible for me to have done it that way'. This doesn't rule anyone out. And yet it must have been someone.

Think of it this way: if it was done by sorcery, Cat is as likely a suspect as anyone else. (If it was done by brute strength, of course, Brienne is as likely a suspect as you'll find.)

Cat had been his guest and shown no animosity towards him for days-not everyone feels that guest rights can be so easily thrown away

Somewhat thin as an alibi also. OK, eyewitnesses place Cat and Brienne alone on the scene with Renly at the time he died, but obviously it couldn't have been them because Cat has such tremendous respect for guest right? Social conventions just aren't going to carry that much weight.

Brienne loved him-obvious to many. Loras certainly knew about it

And nobody ever murdered someone they loved?

Cat tried to negotiate a truce between the brothers, not war. She wants to work together. Stannis and Renly dont

So she said, at least. She might have had a plan B, or it might have been a cover story.

Again, her word on this is not going to carry much weight against the extremely strong circumstantial evidence.

She came to make an ally, not an enemy-whats her motive? To give Tywin or Stannis more men?

Motive is important, but not everything. Cat certainly says she had no motive - but again, someone did it, and to believe she had no motive the Tyrells have to take her at her word. Meanwhile, it seems that they don't know who might have had the means, but they do know that nobody else had the opportunity.

The thing is this: somebody killed Renly. Cat and Brienne are the only suspects. They were with him when he died. Nobody else was there. Are you really suggesting that a disinclination by the Tyrells to believe that a mysterious shadow killed him is 'willfully shutting their eyes to the matter'?

[Frey Pie]

Who could it have been, then?

The trouble here is that when someone dies by apparently 'unbelievable' means, it can no longer be an alibi to say 'it would be impossible for me to have done it that way'. This doesn't rule anyone out. And yet it must have been someone.

Think of it this way: if it was done by sorcery, Cat is as likely a suspect as anyone else. (If it was done by brute strength, of course, Brienne is as likely a suspect as you'll find.)

Somewhat thin as an alibi also. OK, eyewitnesses place Cat and Brienne alone on the scene with Renly at the time he died, but obviously it couldn't have been them because Cat has such tremendous respect for guest right? Social conventions just aren't going to carry that much weight.

And nobody ever murdered someone they loved?

So she said, at least. She might have had a plan B, or it might have been a cover story.

Again, her word on this is not going to carry much weight against the extremely strong circumstantial evidence.

Motive is important, but not everything. Cat certainly says she had no motive - but again, someone did it, and to believe she had no motive the Tyrells have to take her at her word. Meanwhile, it seems that they don't know who might have had the means, but they do know that nobody else had the opportunity.

The thing is this: somebody killed Renly. Cat and Brienne are the only suspects. They were with him when he died. Nobody else was there. Are you really suggesting that a disinclination by the Tyrells to believe that a mysterious shadow killed him is 'willfully shutting their eyes to the matter'?

I wouldnt discount the guestright part. Its said to be evil in the eyes of gods to break this and Cat is devout. Look at the reaction to the Freys breaking of it-absolute disgust. Cat would never break this

You make alot of good points, but both women believe Stannis did it and will say so. Stannis has shown from the start that he wants to battle Renly and will kill him. He has a sorceress in his camp, who even comes to the meeting and speaks. Now i agree the Shadow in all likelihood wont be believed. But an assassin from Stannis? As likely as Cat who has only tried to gain peace from the start? Once again i go back to the fact that Loras now believes neither Cat nor Brienne did the deed. Stannis is a huge candidate for Renlys killer. Stannis is the jealous older brother with no power and no feelings of compassion. Cats a mother looking to get allies for her son whos in the wrong place at the wrong time and is obviously distressed by what just happened. She thinks she saw a shadow. Shadow of what? An assassin? Not even shes sure but she believes Stannis is the culprit

As for her character-she convinced Robar Royce did she not?

[mormont]

The point is that there is no reason for Cat to risk her life on the slim hope that she can convince the a Tyrell camp in an uproar over the death of their King that maybe, despite being there, she didn't actually do it, all on the basis of no proof other than her word (and that of her co-accused). Loras has his doubts, but only much later, once his blood has cooled, and only because Jaime, a neutral third party, is making the case.

[Lyanna Stark]

I wouldnt discount the guestright part. Its said to be evil in the eyes of gods to break this and Cat is devout. Look at the reaction to the Freys breaking of it-absolute disgust. Cat would never break this

You make alot of good points, but both women believe Stannis did it and will say so. Stannis has shown from the start that he wants to battle Renly and will kill him. He has a sorceress in his camp, who even comes to the meeting and speaks. Now i agree the Shadow in all likelihood wont be believed. But an assassin from Stannis? As likely as Cat who has only tried to gain peace from the start? Once again i go back to the fact that Loras now believes neither Cat nor Brienne did the deed. Stannis is a huge candidate for Renlys killer. Stannis is the jealous older brother with no power and no feelings of compassion. Cats a mother looking to get allies for her son whos in the wrong place at the wrong time and is obviously distressed by what just happened. She thinks she saw a shadow. Shadow of what? An assassin? Not even shes sure but she believes Stannis is the culprit

As for her character-she convinced Robar Royce did she not?

Loras only changed his view due to Jaime, and he still believes Sansa poisoned Joffrey, so using Loras as a yardstick doesn't bode well. He's rash and not particularly clever, a lot like Mace Tyrell.

The latter bolded part is no argument for Cat being able to persuade anyone, it's an argument *against* it, hence it seems to me you just shot down your own reasoning that Cat should go to Highgarden. You just spelled out why it would be a tremendously bad idea.

[Kolantero]

Catelyn is amongst my favourite characters. Loved the fact that she was the only one of Robb's (experienced in ruling and hardcore veterans/strategists) advisors who predicted Theon's betrayal, Frey's trap and to some extent the Westerling plot (through Greywind's reaction).

Her death at the RW was my favourite part of the books and one of the very few parts that made me feel sad. Loved her resurrection as well, her first appearance as LS made the hair at the back of my neck rise.

[Axrendale]

As for the Lannister they offer around 15000 men fresh from defeat, and a few thousand city guards who run from battle. They offer an invaded homeland and no gold mines. They offer a history of harsh ruling, and regocide. They offer a starving city and the Starks, Tullys and Baratheons as enemies. They offer a meaningless seat on a council and a lesser role in a partnership where the Tyrells are always going to take the brunt of the work and losses. Robb may be a Northerner, but he has as much support in the South as Tywin does. Even some smallfolk of KL shouted his name, while cursing Joff and all Lannisters, people who have never seen him. Add to this the military and financial power he has and hes a worthy ally. Mace wouldnt even have to bend his knee to Robb, who only wants what he already has. Theres also the spoils of war to consider, which given what the Tyrells received, im certain Robb could have done far better.

And yes i know he wanted his daughter as Queen, but there are other ways he could have managed this, or even forget about this and go on to greater things for his family

Do the Starks really offer anything better?

The Riverlands are a burnt-out ruin, and the North is under occupation by the Ironborn. And giving support to a rebel whose entire cause is predicated upon secession from the rule of the Iron Throne is basically a kick in the teeth to the ambitions that the Tyrells cherish - to control the realm, not break it apart. The key to accomplishing that lies in the legitimacy that could only come from marrying into a royal dynasty. The Lannisters could offer that. The Starks couldn't.

[Frey Pie]

Ha i guess im going to have to conceded the point seen as everyone else seems to think differently to me :( :P

Mormont i do believe that the risk is worth it, seen as war is a gamble from start to finish. For Robb to win he needed to gamble his life and others every day. I dont think Cat would have been killed outright. At worst i think Brienne would have been killed, and Cat taken as a prisoner to exchange for Jaime perhaps. There was a chance i believe for an alliance, however slim, but the dice was never rolled. That said, i do understand why Cat didnt go and why the odds are stacked against her

Lyanna, the bolded part is what i believe that others will see when they see Cat- a bewildered mother, trying to make sense of what happened, not a cold blooded murderer. When bad things happen to people quickly they often cant comprehend or dont recognise what happened and so this is a completley logical reaction to Renlys death and its circumstance. What she most certainly doesnt come accross as is an assassin or a woman who is aiding one. My point on Loras is that hes the one who has to be calmed down. Neither Mace, nor Olenna (who thinks the Lannister alliance is a bad one) would be as quick to act as Loras, but as he eventually sees sense, i feel that the other two would see it alot quicker. This IMO would both lessen the risk to Cat and increase her chances for success. From the off Renly has seen two real enemies-Stannis and Tywin. He was making to battle Tywin when Stannis intervened. Robb is an afterthought, and so not an enemy of the Tyrells.

Axrendale, yes i believe they do have as much to offer. Although you raise a great point on Tyrell values, which i hadnt thought about before. Do they really wish to rule the united seven kingdoms in a few generation or would they settle for ruling a portion themselves here and now? I guess if option one is what theyre looking for then yes the Lannisters are the only option. If however, they are looking for greater power themselves, and possibly a crown of their own, in the present then i think the Starks are as good if not the better option-the West is in as bad a state as the North and Tywins armies are severely weakened. The Riverlands are still populous and crops can be regrown. Theres also a number of lines which have been wiped out-Darry and Whent to name two off the top of my head. These lordships are up for grabs, with HH especially being a great catch with huge rich lands. Alternatively they could just sit it out and join the winning side like the Late Lord Frey

That said i bow to the collective opinion. Good conversation :cheers:

[werewolf]

The Riverlands are a burnt-out ruin, and the North is under occupation by the Ironborn. And giving support to a rebel whose entire cause is predicated upon secession from the rule of the Iron Throne is basically a kick in the teeth to the ambitions that the Tyrells cherish - to control the realm, not break it apart. The key to accomplishing that lies in the legitimacy that could only come from marrying into a royal dynasty. The Lannisters could offer that. The Starks couldn't.

This is all true. But it does involve accepting -- at least temporarily -- a junior partnership to the Lannisters. This must rankle, one would have thought.

[Axrendale]

Axrendale, yes i believe they do have as much to offer. Although you raise a great point on Tyrell values, which i hadnt thought about before. Do they really wish to rule the united seven kingdoms in a few generation or would they settle for ruling a portion themselves here and now? I guess if option one is what theyre looking for then yes the Lannisters are the only option. If however, they are looking for greater power themselves, and possibly a crown of their own, in the present then i think the Starks are as good if not the better option-the West is in as bad a state as the North and Tywins armies are severely weakened. The Riverlands are still populous and crops can be regrown. Theres also a number of lines which have been wiped out-Darry and Whent to name two off the top of my head. These lordships are up for grabs, with HH especially being a great catch with huge rich lands. Alternatively they could just sit it out and join the winning side like the Late Lord Frey

You're considerably overestimating the amount of damage that Robb and his host were able to do during their brief harrying of the Westerlands. Apart from routing Stafford Lannister's host at Oxcross, the sum total of what the Young Wolf and his men were able to accomplish was thus: they captured two minor castles (Ashemark and the Crag), took temporary control of three gold-mines (Castamere, Nunn's Deep, Pendric Hills), burned some villages along a section of the coastline, and stole several thousand cattle. That's it. Although that might sound like a lot on paper, if you actually look at the Westerlands on a map (this is as good as anything: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/e/e7/Map_of_westeros.jpg), that's nothing. The whole campaign after Oxcross was essentially confined to a medium-sized section of the Westerlands around Ashemark and the Crag, with large parts of the north and the entirety of the south remaining untouched. None of the most important castles - Casterly Rock, the Golden Tooth (after CR the site of the richest gold mines), Silverhill, Crakehall, Kayce, Faircastle, the Banefort - or the city of Lannisport were attacked, or even threatened (because Robb lacked the manpower and engineering capabilities to assault any of them). The Lannisters may have suffered several reverses in the field, but at that point in the conflict they had taken less damage to their powerbase than the North (which had just lost Winterfell), and far, far less than the Riverlands, where all but three of the major castles had been sacked at least once, and scarcely a single field remained unburnt except for the lands around Seaguard and the Twins.

You're also downplaying the benefits that the Tyrells derived from their alliance to the Lannisters, at least while Lord Tywin was alive. In addition to a guarentee of a marriage to the king for Margaery and a spot in the Kingsguard for Loras, as long as they were dealing with Tywin, the Tyrells recieved or were promised four seats on the Small Council (for Mace, Rowan, Redwyne, and Garth the Gross), as well as royal appointments for Garth's sons and other Tyrell relatives, grants of lordships and knighthoods to a multitude of Tyrell vassals (including Brightwater Keep for Garlan Tyrell), possession of some of the finest lands in the Stormlands, and remission of certain royal taxes. As much as relations may of deteriorated in the aftermath of his murder, as long as Tywin was alive, the Lannisters did not skimp on their allies.

[Axrendale]

This is all true. But it does involve accepting -- at least temporarily -- a junior partnership to the Lannisters. This must rankle, one would have thought.

Being a junior partner in ruling the realm is better than being an equal partner in ending the realm as a unified concept, or retreating back into isolationism. And it was part of Tywin's political skill (and Kevan's during his unfortunately brief reign as regent) to try and minimize this barrier to alliance by treating Mace Tyrell and his vassals as symbolic equals whilst retaining control over substantive decision-making for themselves. When dealing with a man like Lord Mace, who values the trappings of power more than the reality of it, that is all that is required. Cersei never understood that, which was why the Great Western Alliance ruptured so quickly under her rule.