Eponine Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Do you ever actually contribute to threads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leviathan I Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I'd say yes, then again I don't usually enjoy fantasy at all. ASOIAF is a rare gem among a seething sea of shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I'd say ASOIAF is better than Prince of Nothing + Aspect Emperor though I'm more invested in the latter. ASOIAF just has more range of emotions/POVs covered and, at least in first three books, feels more natural.PoN+AE fucked itself over with some heavy handed allegorical flattening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I had a significant background in Christian apologetics before reading BotNS, including reading text in Greek and Latin (I mention that just so you don't get the impression that I was a teenager who read a few CS Lewis books, threw a tantrum and gave up). So it's hard to be perfectly objective even if it's treated with great intelligence and thoughtfulness - I think the expression is polishing a turd. It's not perfectly in agreement that he's wrestling with something intellectual rather than wrestling with writing meta-fiction about fiction. I guess the fact that his treatment was sincere affects that. Although I'm judging Martin by the first three books, and feel that he has somewhat lost his grip on the plot in the last two, I respect his treatment more than Wolfe's, since Wolfe occasionally sinks into the heavy-handed allegorical.While I'm not really in agreement here with you in regards to Martin, I think this is probably one of the fairest criticisms of Wolfe's series that I've read here. It is at times a bit much, especially the more "background knowledge" the reader has. And certainly Wolfe's recent novels have discouraged me from re-reading his older fictions for the past few years. They truly are that bad.As for the original question, no, I do not think ASOIAF is the best series ever written. I do not think it is the author's greatest work (I am much more a fan of Martin's short fiction, which shows a greater range in characterization, prose style, and thematic treatment). But in terms of epic fantasy, it is one of the better-written/plotted ones. But since I'm in a mood to be pedantic tonight, "fantasy" encompasses more than epic fantasy, so that means I could just go ahead and slot something like Edward Whittemore's Jerusalem Quartet novels here. There would be numerous stand-alone "fantasy" fictions that I would rate higher than ASOIAF as well. But after a while, the "rating" part gets rather tedious and boring. I like this series enough (despite the flaws I perceive in it) that I'm going to continue reading it, not something I always do with ongoing volumes of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Even consigning this discussion to fantasy series, I think it a little hasty to grant A Song of Ice and Fire that title before it is completed. It would not be the first series within the genre to start off so promising only to eventually disappoint in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponine Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 While I'm not really in agreement here with you in regards to Martin...There would be numerous stand-alone "fantasy" fictions that I would rate higher than ASOIAF as well.Are there any epic fantasy series you think better than Martin? Or series where the definition of fantasy doesn't have to be stretched (or where the author would describe his/her own work as fantasy)?Without even giving examples, I think that of fantasy books that I'd rate highly, 95% have been stand-alone and 5% series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 PoN+AE fucked itself over with some heavy handed allegorical flattening.I can’t even visualise this.DrRobotnik, welcome to the board. Many people on this board count Martin’s series among the best they’ve ever read, certainly the best fantasy. I would put Tolkien’s work (in which I include the Silmarillion) and the Second Apocalypse by R. Scott Bakker on a higher peg, but that’s pretty much it.Still, there’s enough great fantasy out there. Go ahead. The literature forum on this board is a great source for that kind of inspiration and informed debate. (Even though the responses to this thread make that hard to believe…) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponine Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 The literature forum on this board is a great source for that kind of inspiration and informed debate. (Even though the responses to this thread make that hard to believe…)The board recs on fantasy series have not inspired me with great confidence. Although, I haven't read some of the most recent recs - Daniel Abraham seems like he might be to my liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 The board recs on fantasy series have not inspired me with great confidence.Did you happen to get the Kingkiller chronicles, The Sword of truth and the Wheel of Time recommended to you on thsi board, or something like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Did you happen to get the Kingkiller chronicles, The Sword of truth and the Wheel of Time recommended to you on thsi board, or something like that?KK and WoT I read off recommendation on this board. (SoT, not so much.)I didn’t like them.But this board is still a million times better than just grabbing books of the SFF shelves in the local store, or amazon. I did find Bakker, Lynch, Abercrombie, Morgan, Mieville, etc. thanks to the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponine Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Did you happen to get the Kingkiller chronicles, The Sword of truth and the Wheel of Time recommended to you on thsi board, or something like that?Series I started (but not necessarily finished) recently because of board recs - The Black Company (good non-fantasy story with stupid obvious fantasy plot on top)The Book of the New Sun (already discussed)The Empire Trilogy (I can't believe anyone recommended this, one of the most truly awful things I've ever read)The Farseer Trilogy (really enjoyable engaging story, but can think of several better stand-alones)The Fencer Trilogy (some really good things bogged down by really annoying worthless side characters)And I did read the first Kingkiller book because of the board. I wouldn't call it the greatest of anything, but I like Rothfuss' style, think he could use a much meaner editor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Are there any epic fantasy series you think better than Martin? Or series where the definition of fantasy doesn't have to be stretched (or where the author would describe his/her own work as fantasy)?Without even giving examples, I think that of fantasy books that I'd rate highly, 95% have been stand-alone and 5% series.I try to differentiate between what I like more and what is technically better. For example, I enjoyed the Malazan books more in terms of the ambitious scope and themes regarding war and cultural evolution, but the prose is not as good. Some of Bakker's ideas intrigue me, but I don't "enjoy" the story that much these days. Sapkowski's Hussite Trilogy I liked more than his Geralt Saga, but it is hard to say if it could be "epic fantasy" as well as "historical fantasy." But out of these, I'd hold up the first 2/3 of the Sapkowski Hussite trilogy (I read the final volume in German, a language in which I'm nowhere near as fluent as I am in Spanish, the translated medium of the first two volumes, but it felt weaker than the first two volumes) as being on par and perhaps better than Martin technically and in terms of personal enjoyment.As for those that are definitely not "epic," like you I read almost exclusively non-series. I could cheat and count Angélica Gorodischer's Kalpa Imperial as a duology (it was originally published in two parts), but that would just underscore how difficult it is for me to think of decent series. As for ASOIAF, I think I'm in the minority in liking the writing of ADwD more than the prose in the other volumes, even though I had problems with its structure. But it's incomplete, so that is also a factor in my unwillingness to praise it, even if it would be a damning with faint praise if I spent more time on the field as a whole :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponine Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I try to differentiate between what I like more and what is technically better. ...being on par and perhaps better than Martin technically and in terms of personal enjoyment.This is why I limited my discussion to fantasies, because I think that reader enjoyment and entertainment is such a huge aspect in the genre. If I read a fantasy and find it isn't enjoyable for reasons that I'm able to articulate clearly, I feel that it didn't succeed at being "great". I don't hold this standard to all literature. For example, I think that Mann's Dr. Faustus has greatness, but sometimes the never-ending expositions on the associations of chord progressions to Schiller make me want to bang my head against the wall. If I felt that way while reading a fantasy, I'd be much quicker to downgrade it.The second part I quoted - this is why I think it's fair to put Martin at the top of fantasy series, if not the #1 spot. Else, you or someone would have said basically "if you read this series, you will realize that Martin is nowhere near in the discussion for greatest series". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Well, I think I'll wait until the series is finished before I can even contemplate considering it as one of the best. I've been burned too many times with novels, TV and film where they seemed amazing until the last book/episode/film manages to retroactively diminish everything else.It's doing pretty damn well so far and I think it could be classed as one of the most influential fantasy series ever written. Not since Tolkien has an author managed to spawn a generation of "imitators" - and I don't mean that in a derogatory way there have been many fine authors writing in a style that has been informed by GRRM's work. I guess JK Rowling is up there too but the kid learning magic at school has been around for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 The second part I quoted - this is why I think it's fair to put Martin at the top of fantasy series, if not the #1 spot. Else, you or someone would have said basically "if you read this series, you will realize that Martin is nowhere near in the discussion for greatest series".That "greatest", as most "-est" do, always strike me as a bit, I don't know... immature. It's not like if you ask the same question on Malazan forums, or on dragonmount, or on three seas, you will get the same answer. Some things have no absolute. They don't even have a clear definition.Also, for the record, I enjoy Discworld or Long Price more than ASOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 For example, I think that Mann's Dr. Faustus has greatness, but sometimes the never-ending expositions on the associations of chord progressions to Schiller make me want to bang my head against the wall.Let me recommend Buddenbrooks to you, then. There is a chapter with a chord progression ending in Wagner, not Schiller. Lots of variety in Mann’s writing (I think this one is E major.)(Mann is holy to me.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 […] on three seas, you will get the same answer. Some things have no absolute.Perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 The board recs on fantasy series have not inspired me with great confidence. Although, I haven't read some of the most recent recs - Daniel Abraham seems like he might be to my liking.I agree. People still insist on reccing Wheel of Time and that sort of thing. :crying:Daniel Abraham I found surprisingly good with nuances, complexity and actual character growth. He's rather low key too, without super action sequences, Armageddon like heroics (thank God) and explosions all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Daegon Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I think it really all depends on what kind of fantasy a person likes. If you like higher fantasy filled with spells being cast by wizards and sorcerers, armies of allied races of men and elves fighting against evil hordes lead by a dark lord... then ASOIAF probably isn't going to be your favorite. However, if you enjoy a more realistic feel to your fantasy, it might be your favorite. Martin's work tends to be lower fantasy buried in realism, while something like the Wheel of Time is higher in direct use of magic and dark lords. Both are well written, enjoyable series... but so much fantasy is different from each other, while others are so layered in cliche and recycled themes. The first series I ever read was the Elenium by David Eddings... to this day, I love that series because of the sentimental value of the reading it gave me. Is it a fantastic, original story? Nope. But it got me reading a LOT more. Martin's series certainly engages me on higher levels, and I personally enjoy the lower fantasy feel of it while at the same time I love the ascent of the fantasy themes in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daario's*before*Snows Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 There's been more epic world-building, Do you have suggestions based on this?World building is the main thing I look for in fantasy.I think an amazingly detailed fantasy world can make up for a mediocre plot (see Avatar).Ive looked on the internet and this suggestion threads on this forum. I cant find much suggestions based on this criteria.I would make my own thread asking for it but I dont think it would be allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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