Second Dance Mega Prediction.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

And? That doesn't make the general principle less applicable

Nope, Gendry to. Perhaps even Mya Stone if she does anything important. Reasons still remain what they always are: providing stability to a region.

1) they could die

2) As we've witnessed many a times in this books, being military potent does not secure automatic succes nor does it make you an effective leader who usus the circumstances to bring around some changes.

I just don't see Rickon and Shireen on the IT, at their respective ages, working out (btw interesting thought if they were to be wed, would their marriage be a happy one? If Rickon resembles Uncle Brandon in more than just his aggresive tendencies, he'll probably equal Robert's amount of bastards).

1. Bastards are quite a different story. They typically do not apply to general principles.

2. Who knows about Gendry at this point? No one is likely to raise a baseborn blow by...even if it was the kings.

3. Yohn Royce is one of great lords of the realm. His respect likely stems from more than his military might or personal wealth. He seems an honorable fellow.

4. This is just a theory I have been working on, probably not even one of my best. Just playing with the pieces and seeing if they fit.

[Veltigar]

1. Bastards are quite a different story. They typically do not apply to general principles.

But to this general principle they do. General principle "To improve the stability of the domain in question one appoints someone with a close tie to the previous well-liked lord/ruler/leader of the domain, thus implying continuity and a return of better days". A bastard has a close tie (blood relationship) so they could very well be selected.

2. Who knows about Gendry at this point? No one is likely to raise a baseborn blow by...even if it was the kings.

Brienne, BwB, Jaime, ... Besides there are at least two giant books left, which could improve his visibility (arguably tWoW will certainly do that in the Jaime/Brienne storyline). But his connection with Arya, the BWB, the fact that he looks like Robert and Renly, that he learned to forge from the one guy who could reforge VS in KL all hint at further relevance.

Rickon and Shireen could also happen of course. But there is a lot more that can go wrong there and there are a lot more hints there that hint at their irrelevance (e.g. Shaggy Dog Story).

3. Yohn Royce is one of great lords of the realm. His respect likely stems from more than his military might or personal wealth. He seems an honorable fellow.

Seems honorable sadly does not equate to being good at ruling (have you met Ned?). He'd be a competent member of a small council, when he's effectively micro managed but he isn't what I'd call Septon Barth/Viserys II/Baelor Breakspear material.

4. This is just a theory I have been working on, probably not even one of my best. Just playing with the pieces and seeing if they fit.

No, certainly not one of your best. However, I see where your coming from and I'm glad that you are trying to bring something new to the table :cheers: We all strike out from time to time.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

But to this general principle they do. General principle "To improve the stability of the domain in question one appoints someone with a close tie to the previous well-liked lord/ruler/leader of the domain, thus implying continuity and a return of better days". A bastard has a close tie (blood relationship) so they could very well be selected.

Brienne, BwB, Jaime, ... Besides there are at least two giant books left, which could improve his visibility (arguably tWoW will certainly do that in the Jaime/Brienne storyline). But his connection with Arya, the BWB, the fact that he looks like Robert and Renly, that he learned to forge from the one guy who could reforge VS in KL all hint at further relevance.

Rickon and Shireen could also happen of course. But there is a lot more that can go wrong there and there are a lot more hints there that hint at their irrelevance (e.g. Shaggy Dog Story).

Seems honorable sadly does not equate to being good at ruling (have you met Ned?). He'd be a competent member of a small council, when he's effectively micro managed but he isn't what I'd call Septon Barth/Viserys II/Baelor Breakspear material.

No, certainly not one of your best. However, I see where your coming from and I'm glad that you are trying to bring something new to the table :cheers: We all strike out from time to time.

1. You have not given a sufficient example of what you are claiming here.

2. Who knows that could actually be involved in him being legitimized? There are two giant books left with much more important things to discuss. Gendry likely will have his arch wrapped up, but not in legitimization.

3. Not necessarily, I'm going to hold on this one in my back pocket. I see it as highly plausible.

4. Your opinion as to the degree of validity that this theory holds, as stated, I will keep this one alive for a bit. You have certainly struck out a time or two I'm sure.

Hell, you might even be among the board leaders in strikeouts.

[Veltigar]

1. You have not given a sufficient example of what you are claiming here.

Common sense demands it. I don't get why you don't agree with me on this one. I get that we can disagree about the other things, but this is just so obvious. A Bastard who has strong blood ties with a previous popular lord (like Bobby B and Renly) will have it a lot easier to stabilize and govern a region/lordship/...

But if you want an example: Stannis wants to make Jon Snow (a bastard!) Lord of WF, because he knows that with a son of the immensly popular Ned Stark he'll have it much easier to govern the North and bind the Northerners to his cause.

2. Who knows that could actually be involved in him being legitimized? There are two giant books left with much more important things to discuss. Gendry likely will have his arch wrapped up, but not in legitimization.

If he survives the series (big if I know) the most likely outcome is that he'll be acknowledged as Bobby B son. To much work has been invested in his striking resemblance to Renly and Bobby B, his heritage has to come into play somehow.

3. Not necessarily, I'm going to hold on this one in my back pocket. I see it as highly plausible.

That's your right to do so. Let's hope tWoW sheds some more light on things.

4. Your opinion as to the degree of validity that this theory holds, as stated, I will keep this one alive for a bit. You have certainly struck out a time or two I'm sure.

Hell, you might even be among the board leaders in strikeouts.

Wow, you don't have to be so defensive about it. I tried to end this debate on a conciliatory tone, you don't have to be a dick about it. That's just a sign of bad manners.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Common sense demands it. I don't get why you don't agree with me on this one. I get that we can disagree about the other things, but this is just so obvious. A Bastard who has strong blood ties with a previous popular lord (like Bobby B and Renly) will have it a lot easier to stabilize and govern a region/lordship/...

But if you want an example: Stannis wants to make Jon Snow (a bastard!) Lord of WF, because he knows that with a son of the immensly popular Ned Stark he'll have it much easier to govern the North and bind the Northerners to his cause.

If he survives the series (big if I know) the most likely outcome is that he'll be acknowledged as Bobby B son. To much work has been invested in his striking resemblance to Renly and Bobby B, his heritage has to come into play somehow.

That's your right to do so. Let's hope tWoW sheds some more light on things.

Wow, you don't have to be so defensive about it. I tried to end this debate on a conciliatory tone, you don't have to be a dick about it. That's just a sign of bad manners.

1. Jon was raised by Ned since birth directly and is known to all of his bannerman. Not the same.

2. Don't see this one as being very plausible. If it were to happen it will be Edric Storm.

4. See your previous post before you throw stones. Condescending much?

[Veltigar]

1. Jon was raised by Ned since birth directly and is known to all of his bannerman. Not the same.

Edric Storm is also known by all the Stormlords. Gendry on the other hand is the smitten image of Bobby B, as Brienne noted. He'll probably also resemble his dad in his fighting abbilities. The situation is more than similar enough to fit under the general principle.

2. Don't see this one as being very plausible. If it were to happen it will be Edric Storm.

Like I said, even though Gendry is only a secondary character, to much has been made about his backstory and heritage for it not to come into play somehow. But we can agree to disagree on that, I freely admit that Edric chance's are also quite high since Bobby B already acknowledged that he was the kids parent.

4. See your previous post before you throw stones. Condescending much?

Tsss, I acknowledged that you have had better theories than this one (please note that I responded to this statement of yours ''This is just a theory I have been working on, probably not even one of my best. Just playing with the pieces and seeing if they fit.'') and after that I complemented you on the fact that you are still trying to extract new theories from the text (notice how there is an emoticon of two smileys toasting). After that I ended with a self-evident truth ("we all strike out from time to time" note that I say "WE" and "from time to time" instead of "YOU" and "always").

Our discussion was perfectly cordial (though a little heated, but that comes with the territory) untill you decided to lash out in your last sentence. Not cool and totally uncalled for.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Edric Storm is also known by all the Stormlords. Gendry on the other hand is the smitten image of Bobby B, as Brienne noted. He'll probably also resemble his dad in his fighting abbilities. The situation is more than similar enough to fit under the general principle.

Like I said, even though Gendry is only a secondary character, to much has been made about his backstory and heritage for it not to come into play somehow. But we can agree to disagree on that, I freely admit that Edric chance's are also quite high since Bobby B already acknowledged that he was the kids parent.

Tsss, I acknowledged that you have had better theories than this one (please note that I responded to this statement of yours ''This is just a theory I have been working on, probably not even one of my best. Just playing with the pieces and seeing if they fit.'') and after that I complemented you on the fact that you are still trying to extract new theories from the text (notice how there is an emoticon of two smileys toasting). After that I ended with a self-evident truth ("we all strike out from time to time" note that I say "WE" and "from time to time" instead of "YOU" and "always").

Our discussion was perfectly cordial (though a little heated, but that comes with the territory) untill you decided to lash out in your last sentence. Not cool and totally uncalled for.

1. Granted, but nowhere near the degree that Jon is. He was raised alongside Ned's trueborn heir. Everything Robb got, Jon essentially got. Aside from the taint of bastardry, Jon would be a natural successor to Robb.

Edric was kept in relative ease and comfort, but out of the way, under the care of Ser Cortnay Penrose.

2. You are still assuming that the Stormlords will need a Baratheon heir of some sort to ease any transition. I still think gold, lands, peace, and other incentives will suit.

3. I judged your prior words to be a veiled attack. I will take your word that they were not, and admit that I was a bit hasty with my words.

That being said, you have my apology.

[Veltigar]

1. Granted, but nowhere near the degree that Jon is.

I agree.

2. You are still assuming that the Stormlords will need a Baratheon heir of some sort to ease any transition. I still think gold, lands, peace, and other incentives will suit.

Perhaps, I should expand on this a wee bit more. Of course the remaining Stormlords (Some families will probably die out or lose their land because they supported the wrong side for to long) will get other incentives in the form of amnesty and peace. The ones who went over to the winning side early enough will also get gold, offices, lands, marriages, etc. A Baratheon heir is just part of a package of measures to appease the Stormlanders and ease the transition for them.

3. I judged your prior words to be a veiled attack. I will take your word that they were not, and admit that I was a bit hasty with my words.

That being said, you have my apology.

No problem, we are all good :cheers:

[Urien the Ragged]

as far as Gendry being the image of Robert, I believe you are mistaken. Brienne believes him to be Renly when she first sees him.

[Veltigar]

as far as Gendry being the image of Robert, I believe you are mistaken. Brienne believes him to be Renly when she first sees him.

... Renly is the spitten image of Young Robert (only less muscular). For Brienne it makes sense to think of Renly since she was so fixated on him and had never really met Robert. I don't remember the specifics of the scene but doesn't she remark on the fact that Gendry is quite muscular and that doesn't fit with Renly.

[Little and Less]

Veltigar's right. Brienne says Gendry is much more muscular then Renly. I think even Ned says Renly is young Robert except with less of a muscular build.

[Veltigar]

About Gendry's importance to the story. You know that I said that one possibilty could be that Gendry discovers how to forge Valyrian Steel? Well, this SSM is quite interesting (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1193).

It's quite strange that GRRM doesn't answer the question right? I think the odds that we'll see Gendry working with Valyrian Steel (either reforging something or discovering how to make new) have gone up just a little.

[lmgross25]

Okay hear me out before you judge me. So I was reading some of the past threads about Jon and him being L+R=J if that is what you are looking for that isn't what you will find here.

So it got me to thinking about the Political situation right before the Tourney at Harrenhal. Which got me to thinking about Lyanna and why Rheagar would take her. This entire series is about family and claims to the throne. Yet it's also about how well can you make people see one thing and something else is really going on. I don't think that Harrenhal was the first move in the war against the Targs

Lady Dustin tells Theon in ADWD that Lord Rickon had southern ambitions (through his maester who is a hightower by birth possible the son of Marwyn and the citadel was playing it's own game of thrones they wanted to control the prophecy. That's why there was a book in winterfell about dragons they thought that the starks were the key to the problem get back to that in a minute) and that marrying his heir to his own vassal would not do. Why? because those swords are already sworn to house Stark. I want you to think about what Rickon was trying to do with the marriages of Lyanna and Brandon.

Lyanna and Robert if they were to marry Robert's family is next in line for the throne by right of blood. Robert's grandmother was the niece of Aemon targ who was related to the King his brother. Plus through the male line they are Targs not Baratheons they are only Baratheons because Orys married the daughter of the last storm King. So it's through the female line of the house that they are Baratheon.

Then he wanted to marry Cat Tully to his heir Brandon the Tully's having no royal blood what so ever but the castle on the trident and her father is the lord paramount of the riverlands. Riverrun would make a nice fall back castle. Plus they can call on all of the houses of the River. With the Frey's acting as a middle stopping post between the two kingdoms.

Then there is Ned being fostered in the Eyrie to a lord that doesn't have a direct heir. His sister is of no help because she's married and under the law(slavic by the way the book is set up) doesn't stop her from inheriting the throne of the Vale but it does stop her from ruling in her own right and who ever she marries they would be the lord of the Vale. Then her son but as by this time she hasn't had any male children so that's of no help because it places her daughters in the same position that Mary of England was in. Men wanting to marry her because they wanted her crown. Her husband Philippe of Spain left his wife after she refused to hand him the English treasury and the English fleet in the hands of Spain plus her parliment denied signing the documents that gave him the title of King not King consort which are too totally different things. Which is why King Henry went through some much trouble of tying to sire a male heir. That way the house of Tudor would continue through the Male line not the male branch and the female line.

It's the bloodlines.

Peep this. It's brillant and if I hadn't been a detective and did some research I would have totally missed this and it gives reason for the Tourney, why Rheagar choose Lyanna over Cersi and what not. It was about consolidation of the royal bloodlines.

Okay So Aegon the First marries both of his sisters, now Maegor(rhaenys son) had no issue. Yet viserya' son Aenys who like at as not married his sister through Rhaenys has Jaehaerys who marries Alyanne now that's not the cool part this is where is get's twisted and it starts to makes sense.

Jaehaerys hands the throne over to Viserys I who marries first an Arryan and has Rhaenys who started the civil war a dance with dragon so she's half arryan. Then Viserys has a son by a hightower Aegon II this causes the war which neither survives. So the throne passes to Aegon III who is 1/3 arryan when he marries back into the Arryan family. He leaves the throne to his brother who is 1/3 arryan. Now before I continue I would like to point out that one of Aegon's daughter's Daena the mother of the BlackFyre pretenter is part arryan and that's how the arryans are related to the Blackfyre. Now Viserys II marries his sister to produce AegonIV. He produces 4 great bastards but the one's that matter would be the males who one is all targ but because of outside marriages is part arryan(Daemon) then the next is 1/2 targ and 1/2 bracken(Bittlesteel) the last the albino is 1/2 blackwood and 1/2targ(BloodRaven who happens to be north of the wall and he's waiting for the realms of men (Jon) but I will get back to that in a minute, that had dragon and warg dreams and was marked as a wizard). Now if the arryans had joined the fight with Robb in the war of the 5 kings it would have been all of the targ bastards families fighting under the same banner. I'll get back to that.

Now Aegon's son marries into Dorne making it a part of the seven kingdoms so now the Martells are apart of the Targ family bloodline. Now we don't know who but we know that after that alot of the Targ heirs and males marry outside of the family but as they don't inherit the throne they don't matter to this topic. So by the time that Aerys and his sister marry this would be the bloodlines of the Targs that we know of.

Rheagar would have family ties to the Hightowers(who married into the Tyrell and Tarly family), Arryan and the BlackFyre's and have a common ancestor with the Brackens and the Blackwoods from the trident, then there is the Martells of course. Then we know from outside sources Robb when talking to his mother and his marriage to Westerling that they provided brides for house Targ on three separate times. We know that the first Jeyne Westerling that married Maegor had no children. So Grrm said that westerling would be important. If something where to happen to her brother she stands next in line to inherit the westerling lands. Keep that in mind for future reference.

Now let me get back to the House of Arryan, House GreyJoy and Lannister and other house of the Vale(now some of this is speculation but it fits so bare with me).

We know that Cat tells Robb that he needs to name an heir. Now my first thought is why not say Robin but as he's a child I think that's why Cat didn't even mention him as a possibility. Then she mention that his great grand aunt married in the the Junior house of Royce and from there her three daughters marries in to the Waywood, Belmore and she thinks the Templeton family. All of these houses have been in the Vale before the conquest of the Andals. Now she neglects to mention who the Lord of winterfell at this time decides to marry. Now the best way to consolidate power and claims is through marriage. So it stands to reason for Ned to have any claim to the IT then his great gran father is married to an arryan. Meaning that all of they have common ancestors and that gives the Starks a claim the IT because of their common ancestor to all three families.

So if you are trying to make a break from the throne. Which is what I am suggesting Rickon was trying to do. By marrying Lyanna to the heir to the throne of the Seven Kingdoms if something where to happen to the main branch of Targs. The Baratheon's would be the junior cache of house Targ. Unlike the BlackFyre's they actually have legally binding marriages and children from these unions which is different from Daemon and him raising against the realm because he wasn't born in wed lock. Moving forward.

Ned as a son of both house Stark and Arryan from the major cache through the female line would stand as Jon Arryan's as jon's closet male relative from the same line he's from. Note that the uncouth Arryan's stayed true to the crown because they were trying prove that unlike their lord they were loyal. Yet if Jon and co. lose the war with jon and ned dead then the Vale would fall to them to rule. IT had nothing to do with aerys was open handed when pleased. They didn't want a northerner to rule the Vale. So this was the simplest way to accomplish that without the blood being on their hands. The blood would be on Jon. I always found if strange that Aerys would over react like that and demand their heads. To wear a crown is to always be looking at your family and anticipating betrayal. So it stands to reason that he was demanding that he send their heads because they have serious claims to the throne if they should win a rebellion. By removing anyone with royal blood outside of the major cache of the house he's safe guarding his family. Only it appeared to the realm that Aerys was being cruel and that it was the madness that made him demand their heads and killing Brandon and Rickon. The realm doesn't know that Rickon was plotting to rebel and leave the realm of the iron throne and go back to the north being an independant nation, I'll get back to that.

Little know fact about mediveal law. IF a woman is heir to property if she is unwed and kidnapped the kidnapper can force her to marry him and then her lands and incomes become his own because he's a male and her husband. That's food for thought later will I get into that . Just know that Ellinor of Aquitaine was in such a position which is why she married her cousin the french king and has they had 2 daughters after years of marriage they got annulment on the ground that they were first cousins before they wed. Which brings me to my point when she married the king her land got swallowed up by the french and became french territories until she married in to the English family and her lands passed to her son. Making his a very wealth king and ruler of broad lands in continental Europe and England Just a side note on history and how it ties into my theory. Back to that in a minute.

Now the Maester Wylis is a hightower by birth with an anchmaester as a father. After he heads north he starts whispering into the lord of winterfell's ear. Telling him that out of all the kingdoms his is the one that is least governed by the IT. The last time someone of royal birth came to the North was when the dragonknight came north and fought one of your ancestors. Now the Starks are a line of kings unbroken for 8,000 years it was the dragons that Torrenhen bent the knee to and the dragons are all dead. Then there's this prophecy that there will be a PTWP and he will bring back the dragons but what if you could control that prophecy. Marry your daughter to the lord of stormsend. Through their children the lines of house Arryan, Targ, Baratheon and Stark will come together all under one child. Not to mention that this child will as so share ancestors to the Hightowers,Martells,and the Lannisters through the marriage when Castely Rock and the Starks went to war against the Ironborn who also have ties to house Stark through the GreyStarks. When King Jon Stark finished his war with the Iron born to get them out of White Harbor gave the wolf's den to his son and to join the peace with marriage to his daughter(this is speculation but it makes sense right everything after my Gullstown theory so pick it apart if you want but it makes too much sense in my mind not to be true. We have seen time and time again that the way to seal a pact is through the marriage of the two houses. So even though this is theoretical it fits ).

So let me draw the lines of who the Royal families that the Starks are related to even remotely with a common ancestors. The lannisters, GreyJoys, Arryan, Martell, Baratheon, Bracken(kings at one time), Blackwood (which is why they are fighting to this day over a crown that hasn't exsisted for thousands of years but they are still a line of kings) Not to mention that the Lannisters are related to the First Men because Lann the Clever was rumored to be decantent from a line of the first men. His daughter married into an andalos family. The only house that they don't have ties to is house Tyrell and that's because they were stewards that were given Highgarden after their lord died. Yet Robert's mother was a florent and they have ties to the Garden Kings. So there you have it. By Lyanna and Rheagar would to have any children their child would be a child of the realm. Every major kingblood line would be combined into their child. That's what Jon is. The only vow that Jon has ever pledged would be to the realm. He's saying kings words when he's saying his Night's watch vows. Not to mention that the Starks have a decent that was King beyond the wall, who stole Brandon the daughterless who leaves a half stark king and half wildling king behind. There is power in kings blood and Jon has it coming out of his veins from every kingdom of the realm.

"Now my watch begins,It shall not end until my death. I am the sword in the darkness, The watcher on the wall, I am the fire that burn against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleeper, the shield that guards the realms of men"

Now I'm going to break those down and turn them to an oath that of a king swearing fealty to the realm. Now my reign begins, it shall not end until my death (that's self explanitor), I am the defender against injustice, the watcher to keep the realm safe, the life that burns against death, the life that brings hope, the horn that sounds the call, and the protector of the realms of men" He makes this pledge in front of the God's and soon after while he is praying to those same gods he burns the wright. He is burning his vows into his flesh. Blood magic the prayer, the vows and then the fire that spills his blood of the realms of men.

Now we are lead to believe that the Tourney from Harrenhal was a ploy set up by Rheagar to meet as many lords as possible to call a grand council to remove his father from power. Now we know that Rickon's maester is a hightower. A member of the Kingsguard is a hightower and the citadel is no longer serving the realm but its serving itself. So let's say that this maester let's it slip and word gets back to Gerold Hightower. He knows how Aerys would deal with Ned, Robert, Lyanna, Rickon, Jon and Benjen expecitally with at this point Tywin is still hand. Total annihaliation of all of their houses. Dead fathers and sons lead no future rebellions. So he goes to the Prince and he calls the Tourney. He wants to take measure of Ned, Brandon and Lyanna. Notice the Tully's don't seem to be at the Tourney. I do believe that Rheagar found Lyanna attractive and he's been studing this problem about the PTWP. At the time of the Tourney he has no heirs and his wife is fraile. Plus she doesn't have all of the blood connections that Lyanna could bring to their child(probably not thinking all of that but at least some of it.)Yet him laying the crown of love and beauty was two parts. The first part was to show that he fancied her. The next part was to let Robert and company that he knows about the plot that they are cooking up. Which after he learns that his wife can't have anymore children. This only prompts him to look at the northern girl again. He's probably been thinking about the problem the entire time that he's back at the red keep waiting for Aegon to be born. So anyways he finds out that his wife can't have anymore children and that Aegon isn't even his. He takes the sign that the coment brought as it's a sign that he must get to Lyanna.

Now remember when I told you about the laws and Ellinor Aquitanie. That's what happen to remove a threat to his families legacy and to try and forfill the phopecy he takes Lyanna. So there you have it. That is what i think is behind the whole was about. The citadel was trying to play with the prophecy. Mawyn told sam that he knew about the prophecy. It's because of him and his meddling when he sent his son to Winterfell that the whole war happened. It's perfect.

Then look at this if you break down the Valyrians that's in jon's blood, then through the Martells there would be Nymeria's people who had kings blood. The Valyrians who ruled most of the east would have blood ties to other kings blood in the east. Like Volantis which wasn't always part of the free hold. Then there is the empire of Ghias. Then the Andals who migrated into Westeros. So through the Arryans he would be related to the past king line of the Andals. Oh my god. I did it. I did it. I only hope I'm right. All of the free cities have Valyrian blood even if they don't have the looks their blood is in the nobility by common ancestors. That would encampass all of westeros and Essos that jon would have a connection to through blood. Even if the tie is long lost it's still a part of his make up. The blood remembers and that's what the connections come in.

[Myk Lonmouth]

:drool:

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Imgross25, a few points: By Arryan do yo mean the Arryn's? Not trying to be picky, i just want to make sure i havent made a mistake.

Second, i did read all of it but you mention that when Rhaegar took Lyanna he has no heirs. Now did i miss something in your post or is that an error?

Also, although I applaud the effort this must have taken you, i personally dont really buy it. It just seems too much back reading and stretchin ideas to fit. Yes Martin likes complexity, but hat seems to go above and beyond

[lmgross25]

No it's not alot of back reading. It's just filling in alot of holes in the story. Everything that I said most of it we already knew. We know that the wolf's den was given to Jon's son after the war with the Iron born. We know in the fight that the lannisters and starks combined their strengh together. Alot of alliances in the book even back stories that's how you seal a pact. Cat marring Ned because of the need of swords and Jon Arryn marrying Lysa to have swords for his two darling boys. It's just makes sense.

I said that he doesnt have an heir because Elia told him that Aegon wasn't his. Rheagar is always described as being a great guy. Charismatic, youths from other families hang around the guy, that it was no higher honor to get your knight hood at his hands.So if thisguy is all that why break your wedding vows? Unless your wife was doing some shit behind your back that lets you out of vows.

Then I would like to back up. I did state that some of it was speculation. Yet I was only speculating because of the text and information that I was given. We know that men have been known to join their names and arms with that of other houses. It's just that when you get down to it's about the blood lines. A song of fire and ice. The word Dragon glass in old valyrian means literally frozen fire. That's jon to a tee.

He's fire from his father's side but on his mother's side he's ice. Together that makes frozen fire. Unlike Dany who has mainly Targ relatives and those that aren't targs, she still can't compete with jon when it comes to having the same type of Royal blood. She's heir to the Targ dynasty while Jon through bloodlines is heir to the entire fucking world (westeros and essos) Even Sansa and her sibilings can't compete with jon for royal bloodlines. Because after the arryan marries into the stark family was before the martells become into the genetic make-up. I'm just saying its a pretty impressive thought even if it's wrong.

[John Hulboy]

I think dany will go to westeros when tyrion tells her about nephew aegon when she arrives she learns of jons existence as the son of rheagar and the danger of the others an rushes to the wall .if aegon is a blackfyre I think jon will be the peacemaker an bring the 2 houses together.if aegon is really jons half brother I hope they are the 3heads of the dragon an they deal with the others together.i hope there isn't a civil war among the targs..them fighting among therselves or the starks fighting each other only hurts them.

[QueenOfWhiteWalkers]

A prediction for the second dance and preceeding events. Reasoning in blue.

Meereen aftermath.

In the wash up of Meereen Victarion and Tyrion become members of team Dany. Victarion becomes master of ships [her former master of ships has been timely executed at the end of ADWD] and with the horn gains control of one or both dragons not named Drogo. If Victarion controls only Rhaegal then Tyrion will have control of Viserion, Dany will approve and/or allow their ownership. Jorah will be accepted back into Dany's court. Team Dany heads West for Westeros, some forces with Victarion by sea, the Khalasaar and others march the Demon's road under Dany's command.

Aegon takes KL.

Aegon marries or is betrothed to Arianne [Aegon will be repeating after his father by marrying the princess of Dorne, Arianne has been built as a master seductress and is ambitious and Doran wants to marry a child into royalty, Jon believes Dorne is the key to conquering the seven kingdoms and with his greyscale his time to sit Rhaegar's son on the IT is running out, when word of of the circumstances that lead to Quentyn's death and that Dany is missing possibly dead reaches the ears of these players the match will be struck.] and so gains Dorne's spears, unbeknownst to the rest of the realm.

Aegon takes KL, a few possible theories on how it plays out.

• Marge's trial concludes. Mace Tyrell sets out from KL and for the third time lays siege to Storm's End where Aegon and the GC are holed up. Information is provided to Jon Con by Varys or by Lady Nym by way of Dorne and Arianne prior to Mace's coming and Dorne's spears provide a surprise attack on Mace's forces, the GC join the fight and the Tyrell host is destroyed. Most likely a Tyrell bannerman turns cloak as well as hinted at by Laswell Peake (most likely Tarly but it matters not).
• Mace abandons the throne, perhaps due to an unsatisfactory result in Marge's trial, takes his host West instead of East, to alleviate the Iron Born threat to his lands, leaving KL lightly defended and nothing between Aegon and the city.
• The trial goes poorly and Mace sets his army on KL. Blood runs in the streets as the faith and Tyrell's turn the city into a chaos of slaughter.

Regardless how the above plays out the end result is Aegon marches on KL where Varys has the Faith, who have lost faith in the current monarchs, open the gates and declare him king to the joy of the city which has likewise lost faith. ["A cloth dragon sways on poles amidst a cheering crowd". A repetition of the HS opening the gates of Oldtown to Aegon I. One of Varys outfits is a Septon's robe and he explicitly states to Kevan that among his reasons for assassinating him is that he threatened to "bind the faith to your little king".]

Aegon, with the Faith and Dorne ends the Lannister/Baratheon/Tyrell rule. [Foreshadowing here.]

Tyrion steals a Dragon (or two).

How this plays out exactly is difficult to gage.

Dany will settle business in Pentos and then turn her gaze to Westeros. Word of Aegon sitting the IT will reach her there. Tyrion will plants the seed in her mind that Aegon may be fake, a Blackfyre. Either Dany will go to Westeros and KL herself (Tyrion among the party) where there will be a tense truce or she will send Tyrion on ahead to treat with Aegon.

Aegon will want a dragon, Aegon will feel he deserves a dragon. Tyrion wants and needs the rock as it is his birthright and he has debts to pay. A deal is struck in secret, a dragon for the rock. ["The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." "three treasons will you know: once for blood and once for gold and once for love".]

Whilst in KL Tyrion will meet up with old pal Bronn who will have been climbing the rungs of power in the Crownlands. [See here.]

Tyrion, with the help of Ben Plumm and most likely the use of the horn, steals all the dragons Victarion has, be it one or two. [Tyrion vs Victarion foreshadowing here.*more on this edit in* Foreshadowing discussion of Tyrion and Plumm stealing a dragon here. Also in keeping with a Tyrion parallel to Lann the clever.] He brings Aegon Rhaegal and if he isn't all ready becomes Viserion's rider.

Aegon and Tyrion conquer the Rock.

With his newly acquired dragon Aegon will set out with Tyrion to repay his friend and expand his kingdom by taking Casterly Rock and installing Tyrion as Lord. Aegon will take his Dornish forces, the Golden Company and the forces of the Faith. Also joining his ranks I believe will be whatever forces Darry and Ser Bonnifer Hastie can muster [Reasoning here.]. Jon as Hand and Varys as Varys will stay in KL, I think with the Gold Cloaks. The Crownland forces will remain dormant.

And so Aegon on Rhaegal and Tyrion on Viserion lead the army West and destroy what forces the Lannister's can scrape together. Their battle plan I believe will be hammer and anvil style. [Foreshadowing Viserion vs Lannisters. Viserion and Rhaegal teaming up on a lion hammer and anvil style.] Things go great, Tyrion becomes Lord of the rock, a Lannister pays his debt, Plumm gets paid, big success.

Prelude to the Dance.

For whatever reasons Dany will come to believe Aegon is fake. Down two dragons due to the treacherous monkey demon and mummer's dragon Dany reacts the only way she knows how, fuming fire and blood she readies her forces to meet Aegon's in the Riverlands and kick off the second dance.

Aegon and Tyrion receive word Dany and her horde are on the march, and head out to meet her. Tyrion suggests another hammer and anvil style arrangement, Aegon will draw Dany out to him and her forces to his, and Tyrion will head to KL to rouse Jon with the gold cloaks and the Crownland forces and on dragon back spear head an attack into the rear of Dany's forces.

The Dance.

Aegon and company meet Dany with all her forces, perhaps on the banks of the Trident. Aegon atop Rhaegal and usurper Dany on her Drogon, the historic parallel I think obvious. The two forces clash. Ser Bonnifer Hasty on seeing Dany turns cloak (or perhaps earlier upon hearing of Dany's arrival) [this again]. If Tarly was the Tyrell turncloak then him and Jorah go at it. [for reasons explain here] Rhaegal and Drogon collide in mid air and crash to ground, Aegon is killed, Rhaegal dead or dying, Dany hurt but ultimately ok (because she is the blood of the dragon afterall) and Drogon alive but wounded. [foreshadowing, paralleling Rhaegar's death.] With Aegon dead it becomes apparent his forces are left with nothing to fight for.

Tyrion Steals a Crown.

Two scenarios, either (1) Tyrion had always intended to betray Aegon and allow him and Dany to destroy each other or (2) he simply arrives too late, either way the result is the same, Dany put to flight and Tyrion sits the IT, Lann style.["When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king". "And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow". "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all." Paralleling history to some degree, the first Dance ended when both primary combatants were killed and there was left only one likely heir, I'm not proposing Dany dies but that she is lost, Aegon I propose does die and with no real likely successor to either I believe Tyrion fills the vacuum, if for no other reason he'll have a dragon.]

• While Aegon and Dany set out for each other Tyrion flies to the Crownlands and has Bronn muster what are now mostly his forces. Through trickery or force he alleviates the command of the Gold Cloaks from Jon and either just takes KL and waits for whichever side won to turn up in their desperate state to make them submit to him or he heads out to subdue the weakened force in the aftermath. Dany perhaps injured herself, with an injured Drogo, dead or dying Rhaegal and severely roasted army is not a match for Tyrion.
• Arriving late and after Aegon is dead, Tyrion takes control of Aegon's forces and makes her flee.

Another thought is during the dance Rhaegal and Drogon in battle will fly away from the field and have their crash landing too far from their forces (Greywater Watch) for them to know what happened, and when Tyrion turns up there's no dragon to stop him claiming victory in his own name.

LOL I bet you dream of Tyrion at night too :P

[chrisdaw]

LOL I bet you dream of Tyrion at night too :P

If I had my way all the lords would have a single neck and Stannis would be doing the cutting. But Stannis surviving is about as likely as Tyrion playing the part of Dany's happy little helper for the rest of the series. Tyrion is not my favourite character, but he is GRRM's favourite character as he's more than happy to tell us, and also the character with the most amount of chapters and highest POV word count, by far.

Some decent foreshadowing in TPATQ.

Misdirection to draw out KL forces and dragons to take the city unawares is similar to how I believed Tyrion would take KL in the first instance. Rhaenrya's short reign may indicate Dany having an intermediate reign in KL before being driven out, so perhaps it's Dany who takes KL this way, while Tyrion is still on her side.

Dragon riding resulting in legitimisation.

The three sister cities plays in well With Tyrion's Hugor Hill alias, they're set to fall at the start as Essos characters move West so perhaps it's Tyrion who conquers them and they come in on Dany's side at first. The Lord of Waters I think is the Seasnake's contemporary counterpart, suggesting a sea battle between him and the Sister cities.

Blood and Cheese makes one wonder what Varys and Illyrio are going to do.

Dragons crashing together and falling from the skies is the common way for dragon battles to go, as I see Aegon/Rhaegal vs Dany/Drogon going. Perhaps Aegon won't die but their coming together will be early in the piece and will result in Aegon/Rhaegal and Dany/Drogon being wounded and out of action for much of the war, bringing Tyrion to the fore whenever he ends up on Aegon's team. Also an injured Aegon would allow for some treacherous workings in KL, someone perhaps conveniently putting him out of his misery.

So perhaps it will go much like the first Dance, Aegon injured in dragon battle, Dany's forces take KL, Varys hides Aegon, Dany's reign sucks, Dany has her betrayals, Dany gets driven out.

[Veltigar]

snip

Use spoiler tags! tPatQ is only released on the 3th december in most countries