Heresy 44

[addicted to snow]

Agreed with both, my own view remains that having first been shown the world as it was, what Bran then saw in the "Heart of Winter" wasn't the serried legions of Hell waiting for the off, but the future.

Bran could have seen the future, but I think he was shown "The Frozen Hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell" as Ned would later put it... I think Bran was shown where he would go if he were to die.

[Tyryan Lannister]

There's a bunch of those sketch videos on background history and lore. I'll share this one (because-Stannis), and the rest you can find in the related videos section, I believe.

Stan the Man-- nuff said

[ViennaGirl]

I don't think Mel is really an idiot, but obviously she doesn't have all of the pieces of whatever puzzle she's looking at. I'm struck by this vision in her first (?) POV chapter in ADwD, which I'm re-reading now:

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them

, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

We know this is Hardhome, so she's not wrong. The part about snowflakes and ashes whirling around each other - ice and fire and death. Then she sees Jon, "limned in tongues of red and orange" with skulls all around. Fire and ice (Snow) and death.

[Little Wing]

Stan the Man-- nuff said

Yep. I liked the bit at the end - I will show them fury burns. :devil:

ETA: Not that I condone burning. But I condone Stannis. Oh, the contradictions! :frown5:

[TheButcherCrow]

There's a bunch of those sketch videos on background history and lore. I'll share this one (because-Stannis), and the rest you can find in the related videos section, I believe.

You. Are. Awesome!! I'm on to my 4th vid.

[Little Wing]

You. Are. Awesome!! I'm on to my 4th vid.

Yay! Thanks, all for Heresy! :cheers:

[TheButcherCrow]

"The Targaryen's called it Dragonglass, I call it useless." Oh Stannis, this is why we love you :drunk:

EDIT

Srsly, the Dragonstone video is hilarious, classic Stannis.

[Bear Claw]

Yes, the voiceover is Mel. You can hear a hint of her Dutch accent if you listen closely...

It sounds a lot like the voice of Tara Fitzgerald to me. She is the actress playing Queen Selyse.

[Greenfyre]

it seems that, at least at some point in its history, the Watch actually was ultimately under the command of The Stark

Unquestionably after the Night's King was defeated, for instance.

The time of Bael is a bit trickier just because (although it's not really clear just when he would have lived) he seems to have been far more recent in history and the impression I have is that the closer you get to the present day, the looser the relationship between the Stark and the Watch becomes.

Incidentally, I recently reread that chapter, and the next two Jon chapters after it, and discovered something that seemed so very heretical, it's probably too heretical even for Heresy 44. It's also contradicted by the TV version (but then that's not much surprise...)

[redriver]

Unquestionably after the Night's King was defeated, for instance.

The time of Bael is a bit trickier just because (although it's not really clear just when he would have lived) he seems to have been far more recent in history and the impression I have is that the closer you get to the present day, the looser the relationship between the Stark and the Watch becomes.

Incidentally, I recently reread that chapter, and the next two Jon chapters after it, and discovered something that seemed so very heretical, it's probably too heretical even for Heresy 44. It's also contradicted by the TV version (but then that's not much surprise...)

Now you can't just leave it like that!Come on,spill the beans.......

[Tyryan Lannister]

Unquestionably after the Night's King was defeated, for instance.

The time of Bael is a bit trickier just because (although it's not really clear just when he would have lived) he seems to have been far more recent in history and the impression I have is that the closer you get to the present day, the looser the relationship between the Stark and the Watch becomes.

Incidentally, I recently reread that chapter, and the next two Jon chapters after it, and discovered something that seemed so very heretical, it's probably too heretical even for Heresy 44. It's also contradicted by the TV version (but then that's not much surprise...)

Now you can't just leave it like that!Come on,spill the beans.......

And nothing's too heretical for Heresy :devil:

[Black Wolf Smith]

We are making our own little sub culture, with in a sub culture.

[redriver]

We are making our own little sub culture, with in a sub culture.

Hmm,maybe we should get out more? :pimp:

[Eira Seren]

Incidentally, I recently reread that chapter, and the next two Jon chapters after it, and discovered something that seemed so very heretical, it's probably too heretical even for Heresy 44. It's also contradicted by the TV version (but then that's not much surprise...)

well, i'm not going to read through 40 more incarnations of this thread if you're not going to tell us! we showed up hoping for some heresy. . .

ETA: have just returned from heresy 4, where they were mulling over the library, how it got to Castle Black, etc. I know Maester Aemon would have brought and collected some important stuff, but the contents go back much further. which leads me to my question: do we have any idea when Maesters were first assigned to the Watch? And the purpose seems to be as advisors, historians and healers?

[Black Crow]

Presumably from the very beginning, or at least from when the first castles were built given this interesting ethos of establishing a maester at each castle who then serves that castle and its residents, rather than serving the house.

Now this in turn raises an interesting thought. Given that we know there was a connection between the Children and the Maesters - learning raven-lore and all that - were the maesters in effect assigned to the weirwoodtree(s) in the Godswoods at the heart of those castles? An obvious rejoinder to this is the fact that the castles on the Wall have no Godswoods, which again is a strong indicator that they are relatively recent and were built long after the original heart-tree/maester connection was forgotten and long after the Wall was created.

[Black Crow]

Bran could have seen the future, but I think he was shown "The Frozen Hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell" as Ned would later put it... I think Bran was shown where he would go if he were to die.

I'd rather think the events which have followed; the death of his father, his mother and brother Robb, the scattering of his sisters, the war and everything that goes with it, and the burning of Winterfell were more than enough to make him cry out in terror - and reason enough for him to live, and to become a greenseer.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Presumably from the very beginning, or at least from when the first castles were built given this interesting ethos of establishing a maester at each castle who then serves that castle and its residents, rather than serving the house.

Now this in turn raises an interesting thought. Given that we know there was a connection between the Children and the Maesters - learning raven-lore and all that - were the maesters in effect assigned to the weirwoodtree(s) in the Godswoods at the heart of those castles? An obvious rejoinder to this is the fact that the castles on the Wall have no Godswoods, which again is a strong indicator that they are relatively recent and were built long after the original heart-tree/maester connection was forgotten and long after the Wall was created.

Well... possibly not quite. We know there is a weirwood at the Nightfort, and that there isn't one at Castle Black. Don't know about any of the other castles. And seeing as the weirwood grove that the Old God followers go to is only a few hours away, it is quite possible that it is simply closer to CB than any of the other castles, hence the Watch going there to take vows instead of taking a multi-day trek

(yes, I would say that they definitely don't have "godswoods", but I feel the implication you are going for is more of a "sacred place with a weirwood in it" than an actual sprawling wood-garden a la Winterfell--so something more like the village that Stannis and co have made camp)

[Eira Seren]

Presumably from the very beginning, or at least from when the first castles were built given this interesting ethos of establishing a maester at each castle who then serves that castle and its residents, rather than serving the house.

Now this in turn raises an interesting thought. Given that we know there was a connection between the Children and the Maesters - learning raven-lore and all that - were the maesters in effect assigned to the weirwoodtree(s) in the Godswoods at the heart of those castles? An obvious rejoinder to this is the fact that the castles on the Wall have no Godswoods, which again is a strong indicator that they are relatively recent and were built long after the original heart-tree/maester connection was forgotten and long after the Wall was created.

a very interesting possibility! so Castle Black just uses the weirwood grove conveniently located North of the wall? i don't recall any of the castles having a godswood/heart tree. the closest would be the weirwood door at the Nightfort.

also, while on the wiki looking that up, was reminded that Snowgate (now Queensgate) and the Nightfort went to war with each other (from wiki: It was formerly manned by the Night's Watch but was abandoned as the Watch shrank. It was originally named Snowgate, but was renamed when Queen Alysanne Targaryen visited the castle on her dragon Silverwing.^[1] Six hundred years before the War of the Five Kings, the commanders of the Nightfort and Snowgate went to war with each other.^[2] To the west lies Deep Lake and to the east Castle Black)

wonder what that was about?

back to the Maesters, i'll probably never know, but am curious whether any assigned to the NW studied magic. and whether or not there was one present at the Nightfort. (too early?)

ETA: Tyryan beat me to it.

also, just to note that the NW use the weirwoods conveniently nearby. is this a security measure (spy prevention), just not necessary to have their own because they're in the North, something else?

[Tyryan Lannister]

a very interesting possibility! so Castle Black just uses the weirwood grove conveniently located North of the wall? i don't recall any of the castles having a godswood/heart tree. the closest would be the weirwood door at the Nightfort.

also, while on the wiki looking that up, was reminded that Snowgate (now Queensgate) and the Nightfort went to war with each other (from wiki: It was formerly manned by the Night's Watch but was abandoned as the Watch shrank. It was originally named Snowgate, but was renamed when Queen Alysanne Targaryen visited the castle on her dragon Silverwing.^[1] Six hundred years before the War of the Five Kings, the commanders of the Nightfort and Snowgate went to war with each other.^[2] To the west lies Deep Lake and to the east Castle Black)

wonder what that was about?

When you look at the timeline, it appears that the NF-SG War occurred around the time of when Osric Stark was LC--and Osric, if you'll recall, was elected LC at the age of 10 and served until he was 60 or so. The story of the NF-SG War further goes on to say that when they went to war, the LC came and tried to stop it, and they joined up to kill him before resuming hostilities, at which point The Stark came north and put an end to it. There are two theories that we have developed on this. One is that Osric was the LC who was killed. The other (this being the one that I subscribe to) is that it was the LC elected to replace Osric: the theory goes that there was tensions between the two Castle Commanders for some time, but due to Osric being brother/uncle to The Stark, they knew that open war would mean he would bring the family up to fight with him, so they would definitely lose; Osric dies, and a non-Stark is elected LC; they feel that without the bloodties connecting the LC to WF, they can get away with more, so they go into open conflict, and using the same logic murder the LC when he comes to stop them; of course, their reasoning is faulty and The Stark comes north and destroys them anyways.

[Eira Seren]

When you look at the timeline, it appears that the NF-SG War occurred around the time of when Osric Stark was LC--and Osric, if you'll recall, was elected LC at the age of 10 and served until he was 60 or so. The story of the NF-SG War further goes on to say that when they went to war, the LC came and tried to stop it, and they joined up to kill him before resuming hostilities, at which point The Stark came north and put an end to it. There are two theories that we have developed on this. One is that Osric was the LC who was killed. The other (this being the one that I subscribe to) is that it was the LC elected to replace Osric: the theory goes that there was tensions between the two Castle Commanders for some time, but due to Osric being brother/uncle to The Stark, they knew that open war would mean he would bring the family up to fight with him, so they would definitely lose; Osric dies, and a non-Stark is elected LC; they feel that without the bloodties connecting the LC to WF, they can get away with more, so they go into open conflict, and using the same logic murder the LC when he comes to stop them; of course, their reasoning is faulty and The Stark comes north and destroys them anyways.

ooh, thanks! more Stark family drama. so what they were fighting over is probably nonessential at this point. but it goes to show that once again the Starks are involving themselves in running the Wall. that must really irk the Snowgate subordinates, Janos Slynts and Chetts of Westeros. And really interesting that the two sides could put aside their differences long enough to rid themselves of that pesky LC.

am also intrigued by the name--when they rename the castle Queensgate, they preserve the gate part (Snowgate). gee, is there a gate there? also, it is right next to the NF, where there's another gate (it just isn't advertised in the name). probably isn't as important. but there's something about the location, all strung along. . . Nightfort, Deep Lake, Queensgate. . .