Boarders Writing a Novel: Take 8

[OctopusArms]

Thanks for those links, Francis. I've read a couple of the second set, and they've been great so far. I'll critique your snippet later, maybe tomorrow when I have more time. I liked it on my first read of it, though.

[Francis Buck]

Thanks for those links, Francis. I've read a couple of the second set, and they've been great so far. I'll critique your snippet later, maybe tomorrow when I have more time. I liked it on my first read of it, though.

Sounds good buddy. I'd actually like to get people to start posting little chunks of writing here, for others to read and critique. Nothing big or important, just little bursts of creativity to get the juices flowing, and some helpful discourse to go along with it. We had something similar happening on the Second Apocalypse forums, and I think it was fun. There are also a lot more active members on this board, so as long as people participate I think there can be some appreciable productivity for everyone involved.

[Frank Fitzpatrick]

Well I feel a bit of a fool. I had purposefully avoided this thread because I had assumed it was boarders combining to create a novel...

Anywho, I'm writing something myself. I've been writing since I was a kid, but took it up more seriously when I realised that I had four months off at the end of my first year of university (I've just officially graduated with a respectable 2:1 degree :P). The next two years were spent writing a fantasy book that was created out of a single scene which had came to me randomly.

However, when I came to type up the second draft (I had hand wrote the first) I had a manuscript that was 130,000 words and there was no end in sight. I had to make a decision to put it down and move it aside. My thinking was, if I spent three years writing this epic fantasy book, what if it isn't very good and no one actually liked it... The fear factor crept in and I made the tough decision for what I felt would be best for my writing future.

So I decided to move on to a more conventional option. I'm now 30,000 words into my action adventure/ thriller which I'm aiming to make 75,000 - 80,000 words. Something light, funny, but gripping.

[Jaime's Wench]

@Francis Buck - I will put reading your excerpt on my to-do and give you some feedback. Thank you for the links, too. I've read a couple of the blog entries and they're really useful.

@Frank Fitzpatrick - Welcome to the thread! It's always tough to abandon a manuscript. I came to that point last year with a manuscript I had done loads of research for and work drafting. It's still there on the shelf but sometimes you just have to accept that something isn't going to happen, even if it's just not yet. The adventure story sounds like a realistic but fun idea -- hope you're enjoying writing it, as it has to be enjoyable for you most of all.

My own editing efforts have ground to a halt as a result of recent stress-related illnesses. I've had some amazing feedback for my first chapter though so hopefully that'll move forward soon. I've a goal to send the manuscript to a beta reader by the time I go to Marrakesh in six weeks and I reckon I can do that.

Happy writing, all

:-)

[Derfel Cadarn]

Jaime's Wench - Glad to hear you're getting good feedback - my own should be forthcoming once my laptop decides to open the wordfile. I gave it a brief read on my phone and liked what I've read so far.

[Jaime's Wench]

Jaime's Wench - Glad to hear you're getting good feedback - my own should be forthcoming once my laptop decides to open the wordfile. I gave it a brief read on my phone and liked what I've read so far.

Cheers! Take your time. It will probably be at least another week before I send it to the lion's pit of critiquers :-D

[Frank Fitzpatrick]

What does everyone consider to be a good day/week/ month?

For my first draft (now that I have nothing else to do all day) I aim for 1500 - 2000 words a day, which equates to roughly 4-5 pages. That way I end the week usually on about 25 pages, therefore 100 for the month. But obviously that is a loose number, so it comes in both above and under, dependent on my productivity. And how much time certain scenes take...

[OctopusArms]

I've heard different things, Frank. 1,000 wds/day, a story / week (if you're doing short stories). I think it's what you're comfortable with. So long as you're writing, I think that's what matters.

Me, I'm slow. Sometimes it'll take me a week to write a 1,000 word story, but I've also written a 4,000 word story in an afternoon. It depends how inspired I am and whether the story is talking to me or if I have to force it. For instance, the one I'm working on now is giving me fits. I like the idea, and I like the ending, but every time I try to write it the story tells me "no, that's not right!" so I have to tweak it. I put it aside, wrote another flash story that is currently out for submission, sent my first flash story to JW here for a very useful critique, and got the inspiration to write something a little more ambitious than I have been.

So now I've got four or five stories competing for my attention. I'm not sure which to do first, but I think I'll stick to my guns and go back to the troublesome one. I had a bit of inspiration on the way home tonight, so I've got something else to try. Regardless, I think I'll post the first scene of that story here for critique as Francis did. I like that idea.

Now, a question of my own: what's the usual process some of you all follow with writing/editing. I've been writing a first draft, and then sending it off to my first readers to review, taking their comments, editing as appropriate. But when I hand the story out to them, I don't ask specific questions. It's more of just "read it and tell me what you think." Do you all have a more streamlined process for this sort of thing?

Now, as promised, I'll critique Francis' story. Should we PM the critiques or just post them openly? What would be most helpful to people?

[Francis Buck]

Now, as promised, I'll critique Francis' story. Should we PM the critiques or just post them openly? What would be most helpful to people?

I think as long the snippets we post don't get too large, then we can just keep it in here. It's good for people to see what others have to say about a particular work, and vice-versa. If enough people start joining in then it might be worth making a new thread for it, but for now this should be fine.

[OctopusArms]

I'll just post here, that way everyone can get a sense of what we're doing, I guess. This is my second critique ever, so I'll just be kind of general with it.

First, before I get to specifics, I'll say that I really liked it overall. to me, it read as kind of a folktale, like your grandfather was sitting down to tell you a story. I liked the approach, but at the same time it felt jarring at points. As a reader (and writer), I prefer third person limited perspective, so that might have something to do with that. This snipped definitely left me wanting to read more, though.

Now, to specific critiques (which, admittedly, are few):

Augustus Fairwell was a pathetic little boy. “A truly pitiful specimen”, said the elder folk. This they agreed upon, murmuring to each other in collective acknowledgment, huddled in a small circle amidst the foggy little frost-covered glade where they held council twice a year, at the summer and winter solstice. This they agreed upon, and the elder folk did not agree upon much.

I found the bolded sentence slightly run-on and clumsy, particularly when read aloud. I liked the follow up a lot.

Augustus Fairwell was an inexplicably cultured and worldly little boy. Possessor of many talents, speaker of many tongues, allegiant of many faiths. He seemed to be born with a discerning taste, one that would be far more appropriate for a gentlemen much older (and wiser) than himself. It was ironic, too, because even though people often said that Gus was wise beyond his years, he always felt like a little boy. Even into his teenage years, and then adulthood, and all the way into senility, he could never shake that feeling of being a little boy. The same little boy, never really growing, never really changing. A static entity, accumulating memory after memory for decades. And still lost as ever.

I'm not sure who is saying this about Gus. "People" say it, but above, the elders say the opposite. Also, I feel it's a little jarring here when you kind of progress Gus' thoughts into senility, but we then jump back to the present. However, I also connect with this sentiment. I'm 34,but I often don't even realize I'm that old, since I feel exactly like I did when I was 24 but with more memories (and more aches and pains). I like that you touched on this, and I think it's effective.

The tree-farm was a maze of dirt and gravel roads....

Gus doesn't talk about the war....

There's an artificial pond around....

The flow got interrupted for me here when you go from describing the tree farm, to describing the war, to describing the tree farm again.

Gus wasn't sure if that made his father's stories seem more truthful, or less.

Both the mother and father intrigue me quite a bit. Moreso than Gus at this point.

When Gus was twelve years old, his father was weed-whacking around the artificial pond when he accidentally came upon an underground hornet's nest. The sound (and probably the whacking) of the weed-whacker sent the hornets into a frenzy, and they swarmed around Chuck like an angry black-and-yellow cloud. He jumped into the pond, which was a mistake, because the water allowed the hornets to retain their stingers as they stung him, since normally they would die once releasing their only weapon.

I believe hornets and wasps keep their stingers and can sting multiple times.

Gus asked his father for a weapon.

Nice hook right there.

Hope all that helps!

I'm away this weekend, but will post my offering when I'm back on Sunday.

[Jaime's Wench]

When I first began to take writing seriously, I went by a 1,000 a day rule. Now, if I'm in serious writing mode, it's 2,000 to 3,000 words. My last novel, to have it done so swiftly, I think I must have been doing at least 4k a day... but I never stopped to count!

Now, a question of my own: what's the usual process some of you all follow with writing/editing. I've been writing a first draft, and then sending it off to my first readers to review, taking their comments, editing as appropriate. But when I hand the story out to them, I don't ask specific questions. It's more of just "read it and tell me what you think." Do you all have a more streamlined process for this sort of thing?

I write my first draft in a stage of fury. I then edit it myself. I then edit again every chapter that I send to my first betas - and I usually make clear to them that this is a rough version. I won't start asking specific questions until later drafts, once my first betas have flagged up the key focus areas and concerns. I will always address a problem found in a chapter before sending it onto the next person - unless it was something I disagreed with, in which case I will usually ask a question for my next beta to answer about it.

I always say beta reading is important, but never forget that the best edit of the novel is you.

[Snikt5]

Before my second son was born, I would produce at least 1,000 words a day. Now days, with a really stressful job, sleepless nights and two very energetic children I aim for 500 words a day. I used to fret about that output but you can only do what you can do.

Still I have just signed off on the cover art for my first novel, the manuscript is with the proofreader and so I will be launching it within the next month or so on the Kindle. I am also 80,000 words into the sequel, so things are looking rosy.

[Frank Fitzpatrick]

Before my second son was born, I would produce at least 1,000 words a day. Now days, with a really stressful job, sleepless nights and two very energetic children I aim for 500 words a day. I used to fret about that output but you can only do what you can do.

Still I have just signed off on the cover art for my first novel, the manuscript is with the proofreader and so I will be launching it within the next month or so on the Kindle. I am also 80,000 words into the sequel, so things are looking rosy.

Congratulations!

In terms of drafting, I tend to revise along the way. So at the end of each chapter I'll go back over it, check the spelling etc. etc. then move forwards. Then when I come to the end of the "first" draft, I'll reread it all and make sure I'm happy with the way it reads and the character arcs. Never got behind the 2nd draft stage, but by that point, I intend to give it to several friends and family members to read for feedback, then if satisfactory, I'll begin the terrifying stage of sending it out. Just the thought of doing so is making me nervous... :P

[Zoë Sumra]

What does everyone consider to be a good day/week/ month?

At first draft stage, I'm pleased with myself if I add 100 words a day every day. A good day for me is 3000 words, which I am capable of keeping up for a month or more, but that quantity won't come along, ever, unless I keep plugging away a little bit every day till the purple patch turns up. Sounds ridiculously low, but it works.

Now, a question of my own: what's the usual process some of you all follow with writing/editing. I've been writing a first draft, and then sending it off to my first readers to review, taking their comments, editing as appropriate. But when I hand the story out to them, I don't ask specific questions. It's more of just "read it and tell me what you think." Do you all have a more streamlined process for this sort of thing?

It depends on what my purpose is in asking for an edit and, to an extent, who my first readers are.

My first draft is on paper and my second draft is the first one I type. My third draft consists of reading the book electronically - usually in Word on a PC, maybe on Kindle - and working out, and fixing, its structural problems: places where I don't feel the story runs as smoothly as it should, extraction of extraneous scenes, addition of bits that I had missed out (as few of those as possible: a late draft is not the best place for content creation). My fourth draft is a line edit on paper. I'm an obsessive line editor and have worked professionally as a proofreader, so I'm keen on achieving a clean copy at this stage.

Only after that will I send a copy to other readers. I don't generally ask for a line edit (except telling me I've missed something really bad: there was a garbled sentence still in the version of Rough Diamond that Skunkbelly read for me. Oops), but will ask whether the plot made sense, whether the setting was comprehensible, whether any of the story dragged, whether the characters were enjoyable to read about, and whether any of the individual scenes didn't work on a plot-relational, character or situational level (e.g. if a scene's blocking is nonsensical, the set layout contains logical impossibilities, or I simply don't know what I'm talking about so have written something ridiculous).

[AdXRoss]

I'm really poor from a discipline standpoint. When I got going I can spin out between 1500-2500 words in a 3 hour session, but these sessions can be very few and far between sometimes. Last summer, writing my first draft, I pitched up to about 10,000 words per week, but since September I've failed to come anywhere close.

I was also aiming for a short story every five to six weeks, but thus far, I've only managed to complete three more in the time since I reached the end of my first draft. I'm better than I used to be, but my productivity is still far too inconsistent.

[Zoë Sumra]

It's not surprising that output in the first half of a first draft is higher than output at other times. At that stage you have a lot of enthusiasm for the story (or you wouldn't have decided to start writing that one instead of all the other ideas floating round your head) and you don't have to worry about the business of tying it up. Making everything go wrong for your characters, which is what genre fiction is basically all about (be it crime, fantasy, romance, SF or horror), is easier than making the wrong go right again.

[Jaime's Wench]

It's not surprising that output in the first half of a first draft is higher than output at other times. At that stage you have a lot of enthusiasm for the story (or you wouldn't have decided to start writing that one instead of all the other ideas floating round your head) and you don't have to worry about the business of tying it up. Making everything go wrong for your characters, which is what genre fiction is basically all about (be it crime, fantasy, romance, SF or horror), is easier than making the wrong go right again.

I have to agree. My story has ended with lots of unanswered questions and characters facing peril/difficult choices. I have in mind two books in order to resolve the mess I made in the first... but then, at least I'm not GRRM, who has six and still counting...

[Gabriele]

but then, at least I'm not GRRM, who has six and still counting...

And fans breathing down his neck. ;)

At least I can take whatever blooming time it needs to write my monsters. And my speed is very Martinish. :P

[Starkess]

You guys are all so productive!! I consider myself lucky to put out 10k in a month. But I tell myself it doesn't matter because as long it's >0, my novel is just that much more done. I never thought I would finish any of my others, either, and at some point I did. So this one will eventually be done too!

[AdXRoss]

It's not surprising that output in the first half of a first draft is higher than output at other times. At that stage you have a lot of enthusiasm for the story (or you wouldn't have decided to start writing that one instead of all the other ideas floating round your head) and you don't have to worry about the business of tying it up. Making everything go wrong for your characters, which is what genre fiction is basically all about (be it crime, fantasy, romance, SF or horror), is easier than making the wrong go right again.

I'm sure that is the case for many writers, though looking at my post again, I realise that it is a little misleading with regards to myself. I finished my full draft last summer and was actually building speed as I got closer to the conclusion (for me, the start of a story, or more accurately the bit just after the start, is always the most difficult part and the part where the project is most likely to be abandoned, and the middle-to-end is the juicy exciting part).

The problem that I've had is that since I finished the draft, I've failed to make serious progress on editing it and the other writing that I'm doing, short stories mostly, hasn't increased to explain the shortfall. I'm looking at changing my habits, because I think I need to go somewhere specific to write, I can't just turn on my laptop and start typing away (well I can sometimes, but rarely with much consistency). I do get annoyed with myself for this, because the amount of time I'm wasting (which includes my current 'lap-top on' session) could be used for vast amounts of writing. I can only envy writers who write all the time or to rigorous schedules.