Boarders Writing a Novel: Take 8

[The Marquis de Leech]

I have a question for writers here on the board. I have fallen completely out of the practice of writing. In my collegiate days, I was fairly skilled and even had articles published, but it has been 20 years since I actually wrote anything longer than a post. I am finding an urge to express creativity through the writing process again, but I find several obstacles in my path.

My typing has become atrocious. It is taking an inordinate amount of time for me to physically express my ideas. By the time I am finished typing a sentence, I effectively squash the creative process. Does anyone have any ideas on how to increase my speed that isn't just mindless redundancy?

The trick is to turn off your mental editor while you write the first draft (easier said than done). Just concentrate on getting words onto paper, and only go back to edit when you're finished. I know that's easier said than done though.

[First of My Name]

I have a question for writers here on the board. I have fallen completely out of the practice of writing. In my collegiate days, I was fairly skilled and even had articles published, but it has been 20 years since I actually wrote anything longer than a post. I am finding an urge to express creativity through the writing process again, but I find several obstacles in my path.

My typing has become atrocious. It is taking an inordinate amount of time for me to physically express my ideas. By the time I am finished typing a sentence, I effectively squash the creative process. Does anyone have any ideas on how to increase my speed that isn't just mindless redundancy?

Practice will get you far, as well.

[Snowborn]

Um, a key part of writing is realising that you need to listen to outside input. This is probably less an issue with unpublished authors like ourselves, and more an issue with major published authors who become Too Big to Edit - the Editor becomes reluctant to pull the author up for sloppiness, because the author can always go elsewhere, and the author knows full well that readers will buy them no matter what.

(Plus, it's also an issue for the Terry Goodkinds of this world. But they were insane to start with).

Oh, I know. I believe listening to criticism is a great part in becoming a good writer. It helps you notice the defects in your writing and it can be food for thought the next time you go over your manuscript, since you'll know what to avoid.

Editing a widely known author must be a challenge. It would take lots of trust between the author and their editor for them to be able to discuss the flaws and problem with the text, so that the author will accept the editor's observations and the editor will be able to actually make those observations. I wonder if there was a problem of this kind with GRRM and his editor by the time of ADwD, there were so many sloppy passages in that book. I still love it, but it could've been better assembled, I think. GRRM doesn't strike me as the kind of conceited author who doesn't allow any criticism, though.

To whom does this relate?

I was referring to a particular person, it's something that happened some months ago. It might have sounded weird, sorry for that.

[The Marquis de Leech]

IIRC, the problem with GRRM isn't that he's become conceited. It's that his editor has become a bit of a fan (honestly, fans should not edit books!), so there's less criticism being made.

[Snowborn]

IIRC, the problem with GRRM isn't that he's become conceited. It's that his editor has become a bit of a fan (honestly, fans should not edit books!), so there's less criticism being made.

Oohh, that's funny. I agree, being a fan would make the editor more partial to the author, so they'd stop noticing some flaws that would've been more evident if the editor had remained neutral.

"The sight of their arousal was arousing." :rolleyes:

[First of My Name]

I was referring to a particular person, it's something that happened some months ago. It might have sounded weird, sorry for that.

A bit, but you were right, people like that are very frustrating.

[Zoë Sumra]

Let's consider this scenario. You're a writer, you're really proud of what you do, so you talk about it all the time. Not only to people you regularly talk to, but also to complete strangers in a chatroom. This goes on for weeks. You talk about it so much you don't listen to others, you don't care about discussing anything but your writing, even when others don't want to talk about it, and one day you mention you put up a chapter of the novel you're writing on your blog, come on guys, go take a look. So, the same people who had to listen to you all that time go and check the sample. Some feel neutral about it, some don't like it. You still talk about what an awesome writer you are, and, if someone tries to point put a flaw on your work, you dismiss them right away, saying that you don't want to hear negative criticism. One day, you start asking the people in the chatroom about their honest opinion about your writing. People, then, proceed to give you their opinion, pointing out the flaws they found, and many said they didn't like it at all. You, then, get so mad at these people, you insult them, call the incident a flaming, and now, when you're not talking about your novel, you talk about the people who bashed it and can't appreciate your efforts, without considering that it was you the one who asked for an opinion, you the one who uploaded that chapter to a public site and told people it was there, and that you cannot abide any kind of criticism because your ego is so big it doesn't allow you to listen to others.

Um, a key part of writing is realising that you need to listen to outside input. This is probably less an issue with unpublished authors like ourselves, and more an issue with major published authors who become Too Big to Edit...

We notice it being a problem with the Too Big To Edit crowd, but we don't notice it being a problem with unpublished authors, because those authors don't get published.

(This is one of the big pitfalls of reading self-published books: negotiating through the unedited to reach the edited. (Contrary to some people's opinion not all self-published books are unedited, and not all self-published books are bad. But.))

It is of paramount importance for a writer who wants to become an author to learn how to accept negative criticism. This involves both taking critical comments seriously and using them to improve on one's writing, and also knowing what is good enough to be left in place, bearing in mind that you can't please everyone and that a turn of phrase that one person hates will be loved by someone else and that a character one person hates will be another person's favourite (it's a different matter if the character is badly drawn!). Generally, the cases where you can leave something be are far fewer than the cases where you have to change it. There is seriously no point sending work to beta readers, test readers, etc. - or putting it online for random people to read - if you're going to ignore the results, whether phrased nicely or harshly. Everyone who reads your work and bothers to comment on it is doing you a massive favour.

I was already submitting Rough Diamond, not too strenuously, in late 2007. In early 2008 I took it to a crit group and it got mauled. Nothing was good enough: character introductions, prose, anything. I had thought it was good enough beforehand... but when I took it home and looked at it again, looked at it with a reader's eyes, or an editor's eyes, it wasn't. Two years of hard work later, the same crit group adored it, and I got decent feedback from a published author in my subgenre.

Average time from start of first draft of first book to publication of first book is ten years. Getting it right isn't easy. Getting it right while ignoring negative feedback is nigh on impossible.

I have a question for writers here on the board. I have fallen completely out of the practice of writing. In my collegiate days, I was fairly skilled and even had articles published, but it has been 20 years since I actually wrote anything longer than a post. I am finding an urge to express creativity through the writing process again, but I find several obstacles in my path.

My typing has become atrocious. It is taking an inordinate amount of time for me to physically express my ideas. By the time I am finished typing a sentence, I effectively squash the creative process. Does anyone have any ideas on how to increase my speed that isn't just mindless redundancy?

Try handwriting. Experiment with different kinds of pen. I handwrite first drafts with a fountain pen as it's the best way I've found to get first draft ideas onto the page - I find typing too cumbersome at that stage.

[Snowborn]

<post>

We need the likes back, that was great.

I wanted to comment on this bit:

It is of paramount importance for a writer who wants to become an author to learn how to accept negative criticism. This involves both taking critical comments seriously and using them to improve on one's writing, and also knowing what is good enough to be left in place, bearing in mind that you can't please everyone and that a turn of phrase that one person hates will be loved by someone else and that a character one person hates will be another person's favourite (it's a different matter if the character is badly drawn!). Generally, the cases where you can leave something be are far fewer than the cases where you have to change it. There is seriously no point sending work to beta readers, test readers, etc. - or putting it online for random people to read - if you're going to ignore the results, whether phrased nicely or harshly. Everyone who reads your work and bothers to comment on it is doing you a massive favour.

This is absolutely true. Sometimes it's hard to look at a text objectively. It's very important, especially in literature, to keep personal tastes as far away from the editing process as possible, but that's hard. Not every editor can work on every text I guess. The author needs to be objective too when looking at their own text, so I think it's necessary to leave some time between the writing and the editing.

An anecdote: I wrote a couple of short stories, about soccer, in high school, and thought they were decent. Five years later, I found the Word files and reread them... My reaction was oh my god why?! Especially when I tried to translate them to English. So awful. :lol:

[The Marquis de Leech]

The author needs to be objective too when looking at their own text, so I think it's necessary to leave some time between the writing and the editing.

Stephen King advises putting the work in a drawer for six months before taking it out again.

[Spockydog]

My typing has become atrocious. It is taking an inordinate amount of time for me to physically express my ideas. By the time I am finished typing a sentence, I effectively squash the creative process. Does anyone have any ideas on how to increase my speed that isn't just mindless redundancy?

You might want to consider using voice recognition software. It's something I've thought about myself, although the market leader--Dragon Naturally Speaking--seems to have trouble with Scottish accents.

[Zoë Sumra]

This is absolutely true. Sometimes it's hard to look at a text objectively.

Which is why external readers are so, so necessary!

It's very important, especially in literature, to keep personal tastes as far away from the editing process as possible, but that's hard. Not every editor can work on every text I guess.

Nope, and I'd guess we've all read bad reviews of genre books written by people who normally review literary fiction and Just Don't Get It - and bad genre books written by literary authors who Just Don't Get It either. You need to know the working genre, as writer and reviewer (conceive for a moment the terrible woe suffered by one of my friends who's trying to beta a fantasy epic, written by one of her friends, who has read no fantasy other than Tolkien, refuses to read any fantasy other than Tolkien, and thinks that modern fantasy fiction has to be exactly like Tolkien). As a critiquer/beta reader, at least you need to like the genre (e.g. I have had useful feedback from people who don't normally read space opera but are prepared to try it). A non-genre-savvy beta won't necessarily pick up all the genre-specific tics, either as pleasant things or unpleasant things (i.e. overuse of genre-specific cliches), but at least should be able to be objective in terms of what he or she liked and didn't like about this particular book, chapter, sentence, phrase, etc. - and objectivity is what this is all about.

The author usually loves or hates the book - it's incredibly hard to be objective about one's own work. A critiquer isn't much use if zie is not prepared to be objective because zie hates the genre, but assuming this does not apply, criticism is absolutely invaluable, and the negative is far more valuable than the positive.

Stephen King advises putting the work in a drawer for six months before taking it out again.

I suggest two weeks to a month, but in general, this is a good idea. It at least allows a little objectivity to sink in.

[TrackerNeil]

Stephen King advises putting the work in a drawer for six months before taking it out again.

Although I can't say I've abided by a six-month rule, I do agree that, like wine, a manuscript generally improves with age. You get new ideas or fresh perspectives on old ones, and give yourself time to eliminate bad stuff and perfect the good stuff.

As to outside readers, I cannot agree enough. I have 3-5 folks whose opinions I greatly respect review every manuscript before publishing, and it helps immeasurably. They keep my coauthor and I from deciding that we are simply brilliant.

[Gabriele]

Oohh, that's funny. I agree, being a fan would make the editor more partial to the author, so they'd stop noticing some flaws that would've been more evident if the editor had remained neutral.

I think that was the case with Harriet and WoT, too. You better don't marry an author and remain his editor.

[Ebenstone]

I like to take at least a month between edits. Usually longer, depending on what's going on at school and if I'm working on a new project. I'll be honest, it's been a good eighteen months since I last looked at WINTER or SPRING, but that's mostly because it's out with editors. The other project my agent has, SISTERS OF KHODA, had a rewrite in the Fall/Winter and I haven't looked at it since January and probably won't look at it again until sometime in the fall.

As for editing and first readers, they are invaluable to the process. You NEED someone to help you out in that regard. I have a fantastic little group, including Myriddn here on the board. And you have to have a thick skin sometimes. I should've listened to Myr when it came to SISTERS because my agent addressed some of his concerns for the book that I still haven't shaken out in the rewrite. It might be dynamite setting time to big chunks of that book to have it make sense.

Starkess is one of my readers too. She's once told me my writing was better than a published author's writing, which was over the top flattering. And I have a friend I work with read my stuff, just for general comments, not for a thorough read.

Anyway, little man's getting fussy and doesn't like me typing so much (another wrench in the writing works).

[Jaime's Wench]

The trick is to turn off your mental editor while you write the first draft (easier said than done). Just concentrate on getting words onto paper, and only go back to edit when you're finished. I know that's easier said than done though.

I do this! I am very tunnel visioned when writing my first draft, never go back and edit. It's my favourite stage - that and the occaisonal breakthrough with editing!

Stephen King advises putting the work in a drawer for six months before taking it out again.

I could never do that. As soon as I've finished, I want to make the thing ready for at least one person to read.

Although I can't say I've abided by a six-month rule, I do agree that, like wine, a manuscript generally improves with age. You get new ideas or fresh perspectives on old ones, and give yourself time to eliminate bad stuff and perfect the good stuff.

I agree with this totally. Recently I read a first chapter I wrote a few years ago (one of my favourite chapters I've written ever) and was itching to edit. It was opened in Google docs so I couldn't... but my fingers were making fists. I would never have done that three years ago when I wrote it and 'polished' it for a CW Uni application.

As for accepting negative criticism... A harsh reviewer who has looked at my work before and ripped it apart has done the same with my most recent Chapter 1. It's flagged up an issue that Eloisa flagged for me that I've been oohing and aahing about. So I am rewriting the first 400 odd words. Don't know how yet. Need to swim sixty laps of the pool on Friday evening, then I'll know how to proceed. I think it's easy to talk down those who take negative criticism poorly... but then, we're all guilty of it. In one form or another.

[Howdyphillip]

Thank you all so much for the advice. I sat down today and wrote 1500 words. I had an idea for a scene that I wanted to put on paper, and was able to get about half of it written before my brain turned to mush. I was planning on writing until I hit the 2k mark today, but it started feeling forced. I may go back later tonight and add a bit, but I am pretty satisfied right now.

I only have the vaguest ideas of what I am writing about at this point, but I have a basic theme, and several scenes laid out in my head that I will try and put to paper.

[deleted01]

Hurrah Howdyphillip! I took heed of the advice given to you and managed to get down a fair few more scenes. I'm on around 6700 words, and am running out of steam. A good start, I guess, especially after changing my mind about a character and having to rewrite a large chunk. I do have the rest of the summer to spend writing, so I should, hopefully, maybe, get a good deal done by the end.

I think it's difficult to take criticism when you've poured your heart and soul into a piece of writing, however well-meant it might be. But I'm hoping to be better this time round. I would be very nervous to let people from here read anything I've written, as I imagine you're all amazing writers and would laugh at my half-arsed attempt, but I guess it might be an idea to try. Just be gentle ;) I'm aiming to get some pieces finished up in the next couple of days (first draft though, of course), so if anyone's keen give me a shout :D I'd be more than happy to read other people's work too, though as a reviewer I'm not sure I'd be much good.

But while I'm on the subject, I really liked the tone of your work, Theda, and your way of building up the atmosphere and tension. An emotive piece, I thought.

[Frank Fitzpatrick]

I can assure you Dracarya I am certainly not an amazing writer, I'd settle for being described as 'capable' or 'competent'. :P

So long as you enjoy writing then that should (technically) be all that matters... :)

[OctopusArms]

There are too many people making good progress since my last check-in to congratulate them individually . So congrats, all! For my own progress, I got an email from the publication I submitted one of my recent stories to, and it wasn't a rejection. It was the exact opposite, in fact, and I'm riding pretty high today. It has always been a goal to be published, and it looks like that's going to happen. Now I just need to keep improving and writing more and more to continue the trend.

I think I'll heed the board's advice about letting a draft sit. I was going to start edits on my story tonight, but I think I'll write something else. I've got a fun little idea that I can get a flash fiction story out of, so I can write that first.

As for editing and critiques, I've just joined a writer's group in the area and there's a meeting coming up which I'll be submitting for. I look forward to getting mauled.

[AdXRoss]

I think a bit of distance is good when it comes to editing - perhaps that was what I needed to finally make my editing process click. I'm currently taking a butcher's knife to my chapters (for a total of around 9,000 words cut so far) and I'm starting to identify some of the areas that need more serious re-writing. Of course, I'll no doubt be feeling very pleased with myself when I've done this round of re-drafting, right until someone reads the work and comments that its okay for a flabby, rough first draft. :stunned: