[BOOK SPOILERS] How will the TV series divide up book 4 and 5?

[Gannicus]

I'm listening to the people who are running and plotting the show and recently met with GRRM to learn how the story ends. Here again is the link to Benioff saying, "If we tried to turn this into a 10-season show we'd strangle the golden goose."

And here is another revealing statement from Benioff: "Season 3 is probably the biggest in terms of the number of new characters, number of new stories overall," Benioff explained. "The universe has expanded as much as it's going to, and now it's going to contract... As pieces start to get removed from the chessboard, we'll have fewer on there. We're nearly to the midpoint (of the story), and it'll be interesting to see what's going forward with the endgame."

What is your source for Benioff or Weiss saying they see GoT lasting "at least" 80 episodes?

They did not say that here: "We have the opportunity here to tell a coherent story that lasts for 80 hours."

or here: "The ideal here, if we get time and the generosity of HBO, would be to have say eight seasons and some masochistic viewer started from the beginning and watched 80 hours straight through"

or in the recent

they did with GRRM, when Benioff again referenced an eight season arc (though you could argue in this case that he was only speaking hypothetically).

"There's no question that this will be better for us if the books come out before the various seasons come out," Benioff added. "That said, we're not going to take a two-year hiatus (to wait for a book). The little kids are growing older, the show's got momentum now, and the show must go on. We're just hopeful that it will all time out."

The bolded statement seems odd considering that we know the universe continues to expand into book 5. They'll need to add a few more characters and locations but I agree the show will not and cannot go on that long.

Season 4 - Will be a mix of ASOS, AFFC, and ADWD. (2014)

Season 5 - AFFC and ADWD. (2015) If they try to stretch this into two seasons the show will die.

Season 6 - ADWD and TWOW. (2016)

Season 7 - TWOW and ADOS (2017)

Season 8 - ADOS (2018)

GRRM is going to have to start cracking. If he doesn't want the show to over take his books. Personally I think he's been distracted with a lot of projects. He'll get TWOW out at the end of 2014 or early 2015. If he grinds he'll be able to get ADOS out before 2018.

[oierem]

The bolded statement seems odd considering that we know the universe continues to expand into book 5. They'll need to add a few more characters and locations but I agree the show will not and cannot go on that long.

Season 4 - Will be a mix of ASOS, AFFC, and ADWD. (2014)

Season 5 - AFFC and ADWD. (2015) If they try to stretch this into two seasons the show will die.

Season 6 - ADWD and TWOW. (2016)

Season 7 - TWOW and ADOS (2017)

Season 8 - ADOS (2018)

GRRM is going to have to start cracking. If he doesn't want the show to over take his books. Personally I think he's been distracted with a lot of projects. He'll get TWOW out at the end of 2014 or early 2015. If he grinds he'll be able to get ADOS out before 2018.

I overall agree with your structure. However,I think we're assuming that books are going to be split too easily.After all, each season needs a proper arc for each character, and if normally, a book will have that (as AGOT, ACOK and ASOS) did. Can you imagine AGOT or ACOK being split? No, because it's impossible to break the story arcs in two. ASOS was possible because it did contain some big events towards the middle of the book that allowed the split.

But generally speaking, a book cannot be split so easily, meaning that the best way to adapt it, is in one single season. (Looking at your season breakdown, season 6 would end up somewhere in the middle of TWOW and season 7 somewhere in the middle of ADOS, both lacking suitable endings).

Of course, we don't know how the books are going to be. ADWD clearly lacked a climax for most of the arcs.

[oierem]

Yeah, the tv audience will grow to hate Dany even more than book readers if her Mereen arc lasts 3 or 4 seasons.

And this is one of the major problems that the show has. The fact that Dany's return to Westeros (and her interactions with the rest of the main characters) has been promised since the very beginning of the series (along with the invassion of the WW and the arrival of Winter). That's something that viewers want to see sooner rather than later, and you can't dealy it forever. Keep in mind that Dany is one of the most popular characters of the TV series (and she's being promoted accordingly, being the young heroine and all that). The unsullied are discussing her storyline more than any other, at the moment. Realistically, you cannot expect her not getting to Westeros until season 7.

A lot of the assumptions that we make are conditioned by the fact that we know how the story evolves; we have accepted the slow pace of the story to a point that we are not even aware of that. But when thinking about the adaptation, we have to think about the audience who doesn't know (or expect, or want) that the story is going to evolve so slowly, with characters separating from each other more and more, with a future promise that in the climax of the story they will be important somehow.

[Chickren]

And this is one of the major problems that the show has. The fact that Dany's return to Westeros (and her interactions with the rest of the main characters) has been promised since the very beginning of the series (along with the invassion of the WW and the arrival of Winter). That's something that viewers want to see sooner rather than later, and you can't dealy it forever. Keep in mind that Dany is one of the most popular characters of the TV series (and she's being promoted accordingly, being the young heroine and all that). The unsullied are discussing her storyline more than any other, at the moment. Realistically, you cannot expect her not getting to Westeros until season 7.

The tv only audience wants her in Westeros yesterday. It's hard to imagine keeping her in Essos until even Season 6 without breaking faith with the audience. It creates havoc with the story, but there it is.

[Blutrabe]

ADWD clearly lacked a climax for most of the arcs.

That's because the climaxes (the battles of Winterfell and Meereen, Cersei's trial) were pushed back to TWOW. I wouldn't be suprised if the whole first fifth or so of the book was originally intended for ADWD. Clearly they will use this material at the end of a season, where it rightfully belongs. I suppose that would be S6.

Adding the remaining chapters to AFFC/ADWD, AFFC merges with ADWD approximately halfway through it. Since the arcs in AFFC are relatively self-contained, it would provide the best possible splitting point for the seasons. Tyrion's and Dany's arcs can be accommodated to comply with that. Brienne and Jon are going to be much harder though.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Of all the non-readers I've ever talked about Game of Thrones with, I don't think I've heard a single one mention that they were anticipating when Dany would get to Westeros. I mean, maybe at the beginning of the first season, but since her dragons were born I think it's just been assumed that she'll get there when she gets there. I've never had much of a problem with it, even after finishing ADwD. I like Dany, and I generally like her story line, even if it isn't always as exciting as what's going on North of the Wall or in Westeros.

I agree that adapting her story line will be more problematic going forward, but I don't think it's insurmountable. I tend to agree that both AFfC & ADwD can be condensed into one season (and should, for the sake of certain characters such as Bran, Brienne, and others), but I'm thinking it would need to be an extended season. Since it seems likely that the next season of True Blood (so not this coming season, but next year) will be its last, I can see HBO moving GoT into that summer spot. The show already has an audience, and it'll face significantly less competition during the summer than it does in its spring slot. I think D&D will use that extra time to shoot a 12 episode season to debut in that new time slot. I also think it will go back to 10 episodes after that, as well.

Then again, they may just do two normal length seasons. I'm sure it'd be possible, but D&D would really have to make some significant changes to make things work in terms of the opening and closing of each season, and they'd also have to leave some of the characters out for significant amounts of time. This is a fairly long ways off, though, so they've got time to think about all of this (which it seems they have been, considering that pow-wow D&D and Cogman had with Martin about the story going forward from ADwD).

[hazlnut]

Season 4 - Will be a mix of ASOS, AFFC, and ADWD. (2014)

Season 5 - AFFC and ADWD. (2015) If they try to stretch this into two seasons the show will die.

Season 6 - ADWD and TWOW. (2016)

Season 7 - TWOW and ADOS (2017)

Season 8 - ADOS (2018)

Season 8??!!

Sopranos lasted 6 seasons.

And you're speculating about the contents of books that have not been published. And may never be published.

I suspect a come to Jesus meeting is in the works in which the show-runners have a talk with GRRM about him turning over any notes or outlines about how he sees the bigger story playing out.

[Abaddon]

The show-runners have talked previously about how they were thinking about it as an 80 episode series, when talking about how they don't really view it as "book=season" any more. So 8 seasons would appear to be very much in the ballpark, based on public comments of those that are likeliest to know.

[adense]

*INCLUDES BOOK SPOILERS*

To keep the momentum going, to keep the actors in the show and to keep the attention of the average viewer, I personally believe this to be the best way to do it:

Season 4: Second half of SoS + material from Dance and Feast (example: Ironborn Kingsmoot)

Season 5: The rest of Feast and Dance + the beginning of WoW (example: end the season with either Battle of Ice or Battle of Fire, or both.)

Season 6: Maybe include one of the battles from WoW if it gets cut from the previous season due to budget + rest of Wow (this book isn't out, so this prediction is less accurate)

Season 7: Final season, ADoS. Stuff may get cut or simplified over the course of seasons, resulting in a lot of the storylines wrapping up in ADoS not even being present in the show, thus there is no way to include them.

This way we get a really good Season 4, ending perhaps with the Battle of the Wall, Euron's reveal of his Dragon Horn, Tywin's death, etc.

Season 5 will be a VERY condensed Feast+Dance which will keep the story and momentum going, thus also keeping the viewers. It will climax with battles taken from WoW. The other two seasons there is no way to tell much about, since the books are not out.

The is the most logical approach if you want to keep both the audience and the actors committed.

[oierem]

*INCLUDES BOOK SPOILERS*

To keep the momentum going, to keep the actors in the show and to keep the attention of the average viewer, I personally believe this to be the best way to do it:

Season 4: Second half of SoS + material from Dance and Feast (example: Ironborn Kingsmoot)

Season 5: The rest of Feast and Dance + the beginning of WoW (example: end the season with either Battle of Ice or Battle of Fire, or both.)

Season 6: Maybe include one of the battles from WoW if it gets cut from the previous season due to budget + rest of Wow (this book isn't out, so this prediction is less accurate)

Season 7: Final season, ADoS. Stuff may get cut or simplified over the course of seasons, resulting in a lot of the storylines wrapping up in ADoS not even being present in the show, thus there is no way to include them.

This way we get a really good Season 4, ending perhaps with the Battle of the Wall, Euron's reveal of his Dragon Horn, Tywin's death, etc.

Season 5 will be a VERY condensed Feast+Dance which will keep the story and momentum going, thus also keeping the viewers. It will climax with battles taken from WoW. The other two seasons there is no way to tell much about, since the books are not out.

The is the most logical approach if you want to keep both the audience and the actors committed.

I've always defended that this is the best option, for the reasons you say. Also, if the final two books (or, if they're not published, the reminding story told by Martin to the producers) is way too big, they still have the possibility of an 8th season. If they spent too much time (too many seasons) with AFFC/ADWD, there's less time for the final two -pressumably action-packed- books.

[total1402]

Is it possible the series could skip AFFC and ADWD altogether?

[ebevan91]

Is it possible the series could skip AFFC and ADWD altogether?

No.

But what the showrunners could do, is cut out a bunch of the filler in order to fit books 4 and 5 into maybe 1 and a half seasons.

[metr0man]

I think people are really going to be surprised when the writers actually SKIP OVER most of AFFC and ADWD.

They've already started the Theon/Reek/Asha stuff THIS SEASON. They've also already started the Cersei/Margaery rivalry as well. Dany will no doubt be IN Meereen NEXT season. They introduced Barristan way earlier than the books. This stuff will be intermingled in Season 4. I suspect they're going to basically skip over the Dorne stuff entirely. Also I think they are basically going to skip over "Cersei in charge" and just jump to her getting her getting her comeuppance and "losing" to Margaery.

Basically I think adense above has the right of it. Whatever character beats the writers deem most important to their written character arc will probably be used in S5, which is going to transition the story from the initial trilogy to whatever craziness GRRM has in store for TWoW and ADoS. Basically we're going to leapfrog most of the meandering that was GRRM trying to kill time to get his characters into the "right" positions from when he scrapped the 5 year gap... and rapidly move the story towards the two big setpieces: Meereen and the Battle for Winterfell.

If you actually think about it... the set up for both of these battles is already in place at the end of ASOS. Dany's in Meereen, people are after her... Stannis is at the wall. Once you stop slavishly following the books, you can move those plots towards their endgame in a matter of episodes.

[Gannicus]

I think people are really going to be surprised when the writers actually SKIP OVER most of AFFC and ADWD.

They've already started the Theon/Reek/Asha stuff THIS SEASON. They've also already started the Cersei/Margaery rivalry as well. Dany will no doubt be IN Meereen NEXT season. They introduced Barristan way earlier than the books. This stuff will be intermingled in Season 4. I suspect they're going to basically skip over the Dorne stuff entirely. Also I think they are basically going to skip over "Cersei in charge" and just jump to her getting her getting her comeuppance and "losing" to Margaery.

We agree Feast and Dance will be condensed and probably mixed into 1 season. But Cersei can't get her comeuppance until after Tywin dies. Which won't happen until the end of season 4. That means we'll Cersei and Margery duel will likely go down in season 5. I can't see that being skipped over.

A lot of the Dorne stuff can be taken out. But it's hard to see it being skipped entirely. Mrycella is already there she has to be looped in somehow and I have a hard time seeing D&D skipping Oberyn. I suppose they could change the trial.

It seems like Dorne is going to play an important role in the final two books so it would likely not behoove D&D to do away with it. But I am for streamlining the dead weight.

Quentyn - Cut - Those 4 or 5 chapters are useless.

Sandnakes - Cut most of them - One would serve our purpose.

Oakhart - Cut - Love story with Arianne was useless.

Keep - Oberyn(Season 4), Doran(Season5), Arianne(Season5), and maybe Nymeria(Season5)

It seems like Dorne is going to play an important role in the final two books so it would likely not behoove D&D to do away with it. But I am for streamlining the dead weight.

[Sun]

I think people are really going to be surprised when the writers actually SKIP OVER most of AFFC and ADWD.

They've already started the Theon/Reek/Asha stuff THIS SEASON. They've also already started the Cersei/Margaery rivalry as well. Dany will no doubt be IN Meereen NEXT season. They introduced Barristan way earlier than the books. This stuff will be intermingled in Season 4. I suspect they're going to basically skip over the Dorne stuff entirely. Also I think they are basically going to skip over "Cersei in charge" and just jump to her getting her getting her comeuppance and "losing" to Margaery.

Basically I think adense above has the right of it. Whatever character beats the writers deem most important to their written character arc will probably be used in S5, which is going to transition the story from the initial trilogy to whatever craziness GRRM has in store for TWoW and ADoS. Basically we're going to leapfrog most of the meandering that was GRRM trying to kill time to get his characters into the "right" positions from when he scrapped the 5 year gap... and rapidly move the story towards the two big setpieces: Meereen and the Battle for Winterfell.

If you actually think about it... the set up for both of these battles is already in place at the end of ASOS. Dany's in Meereen, people are after her... Stannis is at the wall. Once you stop slavishly following the books, you can move those plots towards their endgame in a matter of episodes.

Agreed. Except it seems, judging from the TWOW spoiler chapters, that Dorn will be playing a role in the end game. Dorn exposition would also be the most logical conduit for the writers to introduce some backstory regarding Rhaegar, Ellia, the rebellion, and the ToJ. Therefor I think it likely they would keep a few characters: Doran, and Arianne, certainly, and I'm hoping Oberyn. Everything else - the Sandsnakes, Mycella's plot, Darkstar, Areo, and possibly Quentyn - can be axed from the show.

ETA:

I wouldn't be surprised if the show disposed of Euron Greyjoy all together, fold his character in with Victarion.

[Blutrabe]

We agree Feast and Dance will be condensed and probably mixed into 1 season. But Cersei can't get her comeuppance until after Tywin dies. Which won't happen until the end of season 4. That means we'll Cersei and Margery duel will likely go down in season 5. I can't see that being skipped over.

A lot of the Dorne stuff can be taken out. But it's hard to see it being skipped entirely. Mrycella is already there she has to be looped in somehow and I have a hard time seeing D&D skipping Oberyn. I suppose they could change the trial.

It seems like Dorne is going to play an important role in the final two books so it would likely not behoove D&D to do away with it. But I am for streamlining the dead weight.

Quentyn - Cut - Those 4 or 5 chapters are useless.

Sandnakes - Cut most of them - One would serve our purpose.

Oakhart - Cut - Love story with Arianne was useless.

Keep - Oberyn(Season 4), Doran(Season5), Arianne(Season5), and maybe Nymeria(Season5)

It seems like Dorne is going to play an important role in the final two books so it would likely not behoove D&D to do away with it. But I am for streamlining the dead weight.

I agree with you completely.

[total1402]

Not sure if Vic n Euron could be folded together. Characters too different. One introduces the dragonhorn and tales of Dany from the East. The others prime motivation for (sort of) allying with Daenerys is his desire to betray Euron and get back for what he did to his wife. Theres only been one mention of "your uncles" in season 1. I expect that Asha and Balon will probably mention them a lot more this season, ie Vic is at Moat Calin or Euron is in the East.

I think you could get away with

Euron n Vic (we already have the Damphair from the one scene but he can play a minor role)

Doran, Arriane and Oberyn. Quentyn can be in, but it would IMO be more powerful a scene if he simply shows up in Mereen without a narration of his journey and tells the audience (Dorne has always supported you). IMO this was a very melodramatic reveal since the reader already knew that from the previous book and even that was so glaringly obvious that its build up seemed unneccesary. You mean the pro-Targ faction supports Daenerys because they hate Lannisters n Baratheons. Shock. Horror. I never saw it coming.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Season 4-Kingsmoot, Bran's ADWD chapters, fleshing out of the Greyjoys and ironborn plot(since they don't do anything until the attack on the Shield Islands)

Season 5-AFFC and the half of ADWD that covers the same timeframe as AFFC.

-End with Cersei's arrest

-End with Euron sending Victarion to negotiate with Daenerys

-Have the Dornish subplot from AFFC end about halfway or 2/3s into the season, and then include most of Quentyn's arc(they might even kill him off in season 5. Who cares, he sucks anyways)

-Include Arya's ADWD chapters-3 is not enough for a season.

-Sansa is a tricky one. They would really have to add more to beef up her storyline.

Season 6:

-Second half of ADWD and the first part of TWOW. They may include both battles from TWOW, but at least one should be there. They might save the Battle of Winterfell for season 7 due to budgetary problems.

[Pinkie Baelish]

What they really need to do is streamline the Essos crap as much as they can. Nobody cares about the freaking Volantenes.

[Holy Sock]

Season 4-Kingsmoot, Bran's ADWD chapters, fleshing out of the Greyjoys and ironborn plot(since they don't do anything until the attack on the Shield Islands)

Season 5-AFFC and the half of ADWD that covers the same timeframe as AFFC.

-End with Cersei's arrest

-End with Euron sending Victarion to negotiate with Daenerys

-Have the Dornish subplot from AFFC end about halfway or 2/3s into the season, and then include most of Quentyn's arc(they might even kill him off in season 5. Who cares, he sucks anyways)

-Include Arya's ADWD chapters-3 is not enough for a season.

-Sansa is a tricky one. They would really have to add more to beef up her storyline.

Season 6:

-Second half of ADWD and the first part of TWOW. They may include both battles from TWOW, but at least one should be there. They might save the Battle of Winterfell for season 7 due to budgetary problems.

I think this would be the way to go. I think people are underestimating how quickly 10 episodes can be filled up. ACOK struggled to fit within 10 episodes so there's no way that AFFC/ADWD & the beginning of TWOW could ever hope to fit in 10 episodes unless they completely butcher a lot of the material, remove a lot of characters and give some storylines the boot completely.

I know a lot of people feel that this would be easy as both books contain a lot of "filler" but I think we would be left with a ridiculously convoluted season ripping all 21 POVs to their bare essentials (cutting some out entirely) and struggling to create storylines for the non-POV characters. There would be little time for character development as each 5 min scene would have to simply move the plot forward and get people from point A to B.

Certainly some of the storylines would benefit from being confined to one season, but with so many storylines in the air, and it being impossible to say what's going to be essential for adapting TWOW and ADOS I don't think one season could realistically handle it.

Also, I imagine David & Dan want to adapt some storylines as best they can and would need more time to do them justice (they mentioned Jorah/Tyrion in ADWD on a DVD commentary).