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[BOOK SPOILERS] How will the TV series divide up book 4 and 5?


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This topic has been discussed quite a few times. I hope this is the ultimate thread to end all other threads about this. ^^

After two seasons of Game of Thrones, I'm beginning to get a sense of what things they are likely to cut. And AFfC and ADWD are chock-full of those things. I am sure that the bulk of AFFC/ADWD can be adapted into one season. As many have said, some storylines and bits and pieces of AFFC/ADWD are already going to be in S4. Some storylines from the latter third of ADWD (Dany, Tyrion, Cersei) can be cut off and combined with TWOW material to form S6.

So in my view, S5 will roughly cover these stories:

- Tyrion from arriving in Pentos to being captured by slave traders

- Jon's complete ADWD story

- Dany up to the fighting pit scene where she flies away on Drogon

- Cersei up to her arrest

- Sam's complete AFFC story

- Jaime's complete AFFC story

Tyrion as a slave, Dany with the Dothraki and Cersei's trial would then be part of S6.

A followup question: If Season 4 is going to be the remainder of Book 3 and some parts of books 4 and 5, what will Episode 9 and 10 have? What big early event of books 4 and 5 could the season end with?

You and many others here seem to forget (no offense) that the story doesn't follow the books page by page, but that each major character arc should end in some sort of climax. S4 will therefore end where ASoS ends for most characters (Tyrion killing Tywin, Littlefinger killing Lysa, Jon being appointed Lord Commander). The only characters that I can think of whose story might go a little further are Bran (meeting the Three-eyed Crow, which leaves his greenseer lessons for S5), Arya (being accepted into the House of Black and White) and Brienne.

This, with the understanding that some of AFFC and ADWD will be in S4. And Season 6 should conclude with climactic battles of Ice and Fire, which ADWD failed to do. How do you top a climactic S4 Battle at the Wall? TWO battles! :). I think D&D are going to need to beg for another budget increase though...

I wonder if there'll be a big battle every other season.

I think the way to handle Dany in Mereen: have the S5 conclusion be Dany riding off on Drogon. S6 Dany scenes will start late (WHERE'S DANY??) like episode 3-ish, riding Drogon, wandering the grasslands, meeting the Kalassar, and whatever happens to her in TWOW to the point where it makes sense meshing up with the battle of fire.

That gives us ONE season of Dany in Mereen (which could be solid, I think it would be better than the S2 Qarth at any rate) ending on maybe the highlight moment of the series to date. S6 Dany would be a little sparser, but given the S5 conclusion I think they could build some dramatic tension by not having Dany appear until a bit into the season.

Exactly.

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Remember D&D aren't talking about books after this, but character arcs. So we need to look at how Season 5 would look for each character.

I would be shocked if Dany's end to Season 5 wasn't her riding Drogon. It's a perfect stunning conclusion for a season finale. And I'd also be surprised if the Cersei/Jaime conclusion in season 5 wasn't Cersei's arrest and Jaime tearing up the letter. Both seem obvious. So the Battle of Meereen and walk of shame would clearly be in S6.

If you start with those as given, some of the rest of the story falls into place (Tyrion's story starts in Pentos and has to end with him in the fighting pit, for example), although not the North, where there's not a natural S5 ending. Theon's arc naturally ends with him rescuing "Arya," but if that's the end for him, then the ice battle from WoW can't be till S6, so Jon's death couldn't be till S6 either. And I can't figure a good arc for Jon in S5. And the conclusion of Stannis' arc would be getting stuck in the snow? Not a great finale there. I think the ice battle has to be in S6, but not sure how they do S5 in the North well.

I expect a lot more Sam/Arya interactions in Braavos, more than in the book. Arya's arc would seem best to end by killing Dareon and becoming blind, while Sam's should be sleeping with Gilly.

Bran and Sansa/LF, I have no idea. Invented storylines? They interact with no other characters.

For all the book hate over Dany's DwD storyline, her riding Drogon, if done right, should save that storyline in S5. I worry more about show fans being bored with the north in S5 (EDIT: unless you do all of Jon/Stannis' DwD storyline but that just seems like a lot to pack in. Can you show Jon's death before you show the battle? I guess it works in the books. Maybe that makes more sense, and save the battle for the start of S6).

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The only AFfC/ADwD chapters that should be in season 4 are:

  • Bran's first 2 ADwD chapters.
  • Cersei's first AFfC chapter.
  • The AFfC Ironborn chapters (Damphair I + II, Asha I, and Victarion I + II).
  • Brienne's journey.

Every other character arc ends in a perfect way: Daenerys banishing Jorah and deciding to stay in Meereen, Arya leaving Westeros, Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin and fleeing, Sansa witnessing the murder of Lysa, and Jon being elected Lord Commander.

Could not agree more. Why ruin a great thing? ASOS is masterful in how it wraps up each storyline, I think that's one of the reasons it's the most beloved book in the series. No need to rush through everything.

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But what's Dany going to do for S4 then? There's really not enough material pre taking Meereen for more than 4 or 5 episodes. And with Yunkai in S3 it would seem kind of dull if her arc was simply taking another city, but taking longer.

I wouldn't mind if Dany only had 4 or 5 episodes in S4 frankly. However, I expect they won't do that. So a few invented scenes here and there. It's not the greatest thing in the world to take longer, but at some point, they're going to need to bite the bullet. If they do it here, everything after flows pretty nicely.

Also, the way Dany takes Mereen is totally different from Yunkai or Astapor. I don't mind if they take a little bit of time in that conflict, to show it as a very difficult business.

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I think they could spread it out for an entire season if it followed this sort of pattern:

  1. This episode could basically just catch up with Daenerys in Slaver's Bay as she marches onwards to Meereen to free the slaves.

  2. On the march, Dany sees the crucified children and promises to avenge them.

  3. Doesn't appear.

  4. Arrives at Meereen; the Meereenese "Hero" is defeated by one of Dany's guards, but the Meereenese still refuse her entry.

  5. The assassination attempt takes place; she sleeps with Daario.

  6. She learns of Jorah's betrayal (it will be difficult without Barristan's knowledge of the small council, however).

  7. Jorah (and Barristan hopefully) enter Meereen through the sewers and free the slaves as Dany's troops assault the main gate.

  8. The next day, Daenerys enters the city and avenges the crucified children.

  9. Doesn't appear.

  10. Daenerys banishes Jorah; she meets the envoy from Astapor and decides to remain in Meereen.

Those two chapters feature a lot of flashbacks and also have a lot of potential for expanded scenes with exposition, which is why I think they can be spread out for an entire season.

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Based on the opening of Valar Dohaeris, which showed only two cities in Slavers bay, Mereen and Astapor, I believe that Dany will conquer Mereen by the end of Season 3. They will then move much of Daenarys's material from DwD into Season 4, my guess is up to her wedding. Season 5 will be the rest of her arc, culminating in her return to Mereen after the battle of Slavers bay.

Based on this timeline, the other POVs, (Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan and Quentyn if hes included, will travel much faster to Mereen, cutting as much of the filler as possible, with season 5 episode 9 being the battle of Slaver's Bay, which is really the climax to DwD anyway.

This will hopefully cut much of the filler from Tyrion's travels as well.

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The only AFfC/ADwD chapters that should be in season 4 are:

  • Bran's first 2 ADwD chapters.
  • Cersei's first AFfC chapter.
  • The AFfC Ironborn chapters (Damphair I + II, Asha I, and Victarion I + II).
  • Brienne's journey.

I agree with the first three, but why Brienne's whole journey? I like her journeying with Pod, and you lose that if it happens in S4 (he can't leave until Tyrion does). So what would happen to him? And then what would she do in S5? She won't meet up with Jaime again until S6, because he has his own arc to finish in S5 involving rejecting Cersei.

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Based on the opening of Valar Dohaeris, which showed only two cities in Slavers bay, Mereen and Astapor, I believe that Dany will conquer Mereen by the end of Season 3. They will then move much of Daenarys's material from DwD into Season 4, my guess is up to her wedding. Season 5 will be the rest of her arc, culminating in her return to Mereen after the battle of Slavers bay.

Based on this timeline, the other POVs, (Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan and Quentyn if hes included, will travel much faster to Mereen, cutting as much of the filler as possible, with season 5 episode 9 being the battle of Slaver's Bay, which is really the climax to DwD anyway.

This will hopefully cut much of the filler from Tyrion's travels as well.

Thats very unlikely. Yunkai wouldn't be written out because it has a larger role to play in later books as an antagonist to Dany. Its more likely that because we see Mereen and Astapor they already added the animation to the intro. A bit like how certain places like Harrenhal weren't marked on season 1. Its also a little too South to be Mereen and much more likely to be Yunkai.

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Thats very unlikely. Yunkai wouldn't be written out because it has a larger role to play in later books as an antagonist to Dany. Its more likely that because we see Mereen and Astapor they already added the animation to the intro. A bit like how certain places like Harrenhal weren't marked on season 1. Its also a little too South to be Mereen and much more likely to be Yunkai.

You might be right. I just thought it would be a good idea, because otherwise, theyll have to cut like crazy to fit Daenarys's DwD material in, when much if probably should be excluded. Im hoping that Most of FfC and DwD is put into Season 5, because imo, if you cut the filler from the books, you could have possibly the best season yet.

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I think they could spread it out for an entire season if it followed this sort of pattern:

  1. This episode could basically just catch up with Daenerys in Slaver's Bay as she marches onwards to Meereen to free the slaves.

  2. On the march, Dany sees the crucified children and promises to avenge them.

  3. Doesn't appear.

  4. Arrives at Meereen; the Meereenese "Hero" is defeated by one of Dany's guards, but the Meereenese still refuse her entry.

  5. The assassination attempt takes place; she sleeps with Daario.

  6. She learns of Jorah's betrayal (it will be difficult without Barristan's knowledge of the small council, however).

  7. Jorah (and Barristan hopefully) enter Meereen through the sewers and free the slaves as Dany's troops assault the main gate.

  8. The next day, Daenerys enters the city and avenges the crucified children.

  9. Doesn't appear.

  10. Daenerys banishes Jorah; she meets the envoy from Astapor and decides to remain in Meereen.

Those two chapters feature a lot of flashbacks and also have a lot of potential for expanded scenes with exposition, which is why I think they can be spread out for an entire season.

This might work. 1 and 2 can be combined. I hope that Barristan knows of Jorah's function as spy. That should create a nice dynamic in the episodes to come. :)

Based on the opening of Valar Dohaeris, which showed only two cities in Slavers bay, Mereen and Astapor, I believe that Dany will conquer Mereen by the end of Season 3. They will then move much of Daenarys's material from DwD into Season 4, my guess is up to her wedding. Season 5 will be the rest of her arc, culminating in her return to Mereen after the battle of Slavers bay.

Based on this timeline, the other POVs, (Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan and Quentyn if hes included, will travel much faster to Mereen, cutting as much of the filler as possible, with season 5 episode 9 being the battle of Slaver's Bay, which is really the climax to DwD anyway.

This will hopefully cut much of the filler from Tyrion's travels as well.

I can hardly make out the name, but I think it says "Yunkai".

I agree with the first three, but why Brienne's whole journey? I like her journeying with Pod, and you lose that if it happens in S4 (he can't leave until Tyrion does). So what would happen to him? And then what would she do in S5? She won't meet up with Jaime again until S6, because he has his own arc to finish in S5 involving rejecting Cersei.

He might leave Tyrion when he's arrested. I don't know why but they would find a reason.

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As I said in the renewal thread, based on the fact that all the main actors are on seven year contracts (and considering how much some of them have blown up thanks to GoT, its gonna be mighty expensive to re-up them) and that HBO shows (and most hour long dramas in general) don't last ever last long than seven seasons (declining ratings, writer and actor burnout, increasing expenses, etc.) I really think this thing is going to move on a lot faster than GRRM or most fans would like. I really think its going to be done in 7 seasons, D&D have said they think they have 80 hours of material, so that would be 8 seasons. But based on the 7-year contract, I think its going to be 7 seasons; with the chance that, depending on how the actors' contracts are structured, that the final season is split (like the Sopranos) and each half-season be something like 7 episodes.

If so, that would allow more time for book 7, but doesn't change the structure I see.

Season 4- Post-RW ASOS, and a fair chunk of AFFC/ADWD

Probable arc end points being:

-The battle at the wall

-Dany taking Meeren (probably a lower budget affair with the wall battle getting the main highlights)

-Tyrion recognizing Young Griff

-Arya entering the House of Black and White

-Jamie leaving Kings Landing

-Kevan refusing to be Hand

-Lady Stoneheart killing a guy

-Sansa watching Littlefinger secure the Vale lords loyalty (Lysa dying around Ep. 8)

-Bran meeting Bloodraven (sorry, but his story has to move up significantly)

Season 5- Most of the rest of AFFC/ADWD with some of TWOW coming in

Probable arc end points being:

-Jon's ADWD ending

-Stannis' battle for Winterfell (low-budget)

-Kevan getting killed (Ceresi's entire downful will be wrapped up by mid-season, it went on too long anyway)

-Dany flying Drogon

-Jamie following Brienne off

-The battle for Mereen (major set-piece)

-Arya leaving Bravos (no idea where, but wherever she's supposed to go)

-Bran and Sansa doing something TWOW-based

-Aegon landing in Westeros

Season 6

TWOW

Obviously I have no idea what happens, but I suspect that some arc end points might be:

-The Wall falling

-Aegon taking Kings Landing

-Dany and co. on ships headed for Westeros

Season 7 (either a single 10-episode season, or split 14 episode season)

ADOS

And done. Some bits might get shifted around, but you get the idea. I realize I didn't say much about the Iron Islands or Dorne, but I think both areas are going to be severely cut-back on. Not just because D&D have said that the world is already just about "as large" as its going to get, but also because there's already almost too many plotlines going on for one hour at a time to cover.

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There's little doubt that you could do it in two seasons. The truth is that a lot of the chapters (especially with Brienne and Jamie) are "side-adventures" that could be skipped without real loss of continuity.

They would have to get creative in stretching out some of the arcs for two whole seasons. If the end of the Jon arc in Season 5 is wildlings pouring through the gates, what will you put in Season 6 apart from the final chapter? Well, they'll have to include a number of scenes about the offerings to the Lord of Light and "wildlings gone wild". Definitely possible, but they might have expand a bit on the book material.

We shouldn't forget that they'll need a big twist at the end of Season 5. Maybe the one with Cersei getting captured by the Faith Militant. That means that Cersei would feature much in Season 6, which is unfortunate. But if Winds of Winter is done...

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A rebellion episode? Robert's rebellion as a flashback.

In any case I think that if we consider Dany will likely feature in 8 episodes in S4 she should have 4 episodes taking Meereen and 4 ruling it.

  • Establishes Meereen as the new enemy. Discussion of the sewers as a way in.
  • Failed peace talk with Hizdahr, Skahaz and the Green Grace to establish them as characters.
  • Reveal of Jorah's betrayal. Decision to send him into the sewers.
  • Taking Meereen, Dany banishes Jorah and decides to rule.

  • Dany ruling Meereen, Hizdahr and co. pledge their allegiance. Sons of the Harpy attack.
  • Hizdarh's wish to reopen the fighting pits. Hazzea's bones would make a good episode ending.
  • Dragons chained up. Maybe a bit of exposition on Rhaegar via Barristan and burgeoning romance between Dany and Daario.
  • Hizdahr proposes to marry Dany and she agrees should he bring 90 days of peace.

Yes, they think that it will be a flashback episode. Personally I hope in season 5, because that doesn't have a real major battle of thing that is happening.

How can Hizdahr propose to marrying Danny in season 4. What will happen in season 5 and 6? that will be 3 danny episodes each. They won't rush through it, they look at it, as that one character has one major change in a season. Season 4 the change for Danny is, become queen. Season 5 is, getting married. Season 6 is, being back at the beginning.

I think that it doesn't matter if nothing important is happening with Danny, look at season 2. It's about the overall of the show. And as long as a character gets from one place to another it's ok. I mean what did Danny do in season 2? The season 4, that she takes over Mereen and become queen (the remaining SoS and probably locking up the dragons) is more than season 2. She will get enough screentime for that. They won't rush it.

And when I saw an interview with the CEO of GOT I knew that this was his best show ever, so he will let the cash flow as long as possible. I mean the man really changes some features that HBO has because of GOT, he won't do that, if he doesn't think this will last for 10 years. Why put many in something when you only wanted to make 7 seasons?

D&D already stated that season 4 will contain little of DwD and FfC. And it's known that the choosing of the new commander, will be in season 5. Why slow Jon's storyline down and rush Danny more than one season ahead?

Season 4: Jon battles. Season 5: Commander. Wildlings. Season 6: living with the wildlings and get's stepped.

Season 4: Davos is at the wall. Season 5: Manderly. Season 6: Skagos.

Season 4: Tyrion just fled KL/ Cercei found her body. So this is the trial season for Tyrion. Season 5: The Eagon season. Probably first JC chapter. Season 6. Going away with Jorah and being a slave. Tricky thing this because Tyrion's chapters are amazing on screen and a lot, and that means that battle at Mereen will be season 7. So season 6 will be a lot about escaping. WoW stuff.

Season 4: SoS stuff and caging Dragons. Season 5: Marrying and everybody goes to Danny, yes that will be thing that drives Danny's storyline is season 5 not her story self, but everybody searching for her. Season 6: Escaping dragon/ fighting pits. Little bit with Dothraki.

season 4/5 for bran is difficult.

Season 4: Arya going to Braavos. Season 5: Living in Braavos, and some sam things. Season 6: Being blind and WoW stuff.

Season 4: Sansa, lysa death. Season 5: almost finishing FfC part. This season is about playing the game. Season 6: Going down and WoW stuff.

etc etc etc

I think best thing we can do is just waiting till season 3 ends. Then make speculation about season 4 per character. What will be in it, what isn't. I mean people are worrying about characters in every episode. I mean look at Yara, she isn't probably going to be in the show till episode 6 or something.

Maybe we don't get a season 5. And why worrying how they will do this season, when we don't even know what they will do in season 3 and in season 4? It's to far in the future, everything can happen.

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agreed.

Red Viper and Tyrion's arc alone is enough for a full season.

Episode 1 - Tyrion meets the Red Viper

E2-3 - Red Viper talks to Tyrion about revenge, talks to Tywin about justice, gets offered Cersei, maybe has convo with Cersei, chas with Tyrion about scorpions in bed.

E4 - Purple Wedding

E5 - Tyrion waiting trial - convos with Kevan and Bronn

E6-7 Tyrion's trial - with Kingsguard, Pycelle, Varys and Shae as witnesses

E8 - Mountain vs Red Viper

E9 - escape and crossbow

E10 - Narrow Sea , maybe Pentos

Pretty much a perfect outline for the pacing of that story line in season two. Episode four is the absolute latest I'd put the Purple Wedding, but the less time Tyrion spends in a cell, the better.

I'm personally more excited for season four than this season. A lot of this "best season yet" talk from the actors is probably true, but I imagine we'll be hearing the same thing next year. And if D&D can figure out how to make AFfC & ADwD into one (extended?) season, maybe we'll hear it then, too. I know one thing, though - I don't envy them the task of figuring all this out. I think the preferable solution is to allow characters to sit seasons out if there isn't any material for them, but maybe they'll do that and try some other things (such as giving Gendry the role Edric had in he books) to make it all work. They might be able to make two seasons out of these two latest books, but I think they'd need to incorporate a decent amount of material from The Winds of Winter (which sill start where Dance should have ended for the first 200 or so pages, anyway).

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I dont understand the mentality of people saying HBO won't continue it for like 10 seasons. First off Entourage, and HBO show, went for 8 seasons and Game of Thrones in 2 seasons is already more successful. The only two shows more successful at this point are True Blood and the Sopranos.

If GoT continues with these ratings and success, why wouldn't HBO give it the 10 seasons it deserves? And people are saying that actors wouldn't want to work for that long, and thats just stupid. First off this is not an ordinary show with 15 principle case members who work 4 months out of a year every year for a show. GoT has 257 cast members at the moment, and for example Charles Dance (Tywin Lannister) shot all of his season 2 scenes in a fortnight, giving him 50 weeks of the year to do other projects, now for characters like Jon, Tyrion and Cersei this is a bit longer, they still don't do very long shoots per year, because of the nature of the show.

When the actors signed on they knew they were signing on for a long time if the show kept getting picked up, and with seasons being renewed after one episode, I can definetly see this show going for 10 seasons.

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D&D have already hinted that they are looking at 8 seasons of material - a total of 80 episodes. And GRRM have given D&D a rough outline of how the books will end. They can plan it this way.

Could they do more? Sure... But ironically the bigger the show becomes, some of the actors will be able to demand HUGE raises when the re-up contracts. It will be expensive. Add to that some creative fatigue for D&D - or whomever takes over if they leave. There is a reason why most shows don't stay great. We don't want the show to jump the shark.

And the actors may simply be tired of their roles at that point - the longer a show goes, the larger the risk at every season that an actor will bow out for whatever reason.

So, to sum it up - expect 8 seasons. No more.

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"The events Book 4 alone can fit into just one season of that I'm sure."

I completely disagree with that statement. That would be one SLOW season. Then again I think both books are incredibly padded and too slowly paced. I would do HEAVY cutting and streamlining to both, especially the AFfC material. GRRM was originally going to have the Dorne/Ironborne stuff basically be an extended prologue, setting up Quentyn's and Victarion's search for Dany. I would essentially bring that concept back... have basically a few scenes in each of the locale setting up their respective journies and then jump straight into Quentyn and Victarion, without spending much time in Dorne or Pyke.

I would devote ONE SEASON to the "concurrent" portions of AFfC and ADwD, with heavy heavy cutting.

Basically, what would those books look like if GRRM had a really demanding and ballsy editor* (the actual editor actually moved the entire climax of ADwD, battles of Merreen and snow/Winterfell into the next books! ADwD is all set up and set up leading to... an abrupt ending. It's ACoK without Blackwater).

Anyways, back to the point, the following season would mostly pick up the last 3rd of ADwD and TWoW and just tell however much of the story they can, dropping any linkages to "season = book".

Seriously though can you imagine Season 6 ending and Dany is STILL farting around in Mereen? No friggin way. I expect heavy cutting, and Danys Winds of Winter storyline to be in full swing at that point.

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I dont understand the mentality of people saying HBO won't continue it for like 10 seasons.

Because, as I referenced earlier, D&D have ruled it out and frequently project a run of 8 seasons. They could change their minds or HBO could replace them, but for now their word counts for a lot more on this subject than anyone else's.

If we do get more than 8 seasons, I think it'll be via adapting not more of AFFC/ADWD, but more of the story post-ADWD, which I fear GRRM will rush through in the books because of how many pages he's devoted to stuff he originally intended to skip or gloss over with a 5-year gap. Originally he'd planned for Dany to reach Westeros in ADWD (first as the 2nd of 3 books total, and then as the 5th of 6 or 7 books - SSM). D&D may well decide to hew closer to GRRM's original vision than he has himself.

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Because, as I referenced earlier, D&D have ruled it out and frequently project a run of 8 seasons. They could change their minds or HBO could replace them, but for now their word counts for a lot more on this subject than anyone else's.

If we do get more than 8 seasons, I think it'll be via adapting not more of AFFC/ADWD, but more of the story post-ADWD, which I fear GRRM will rush through in the books because of how many pages he's devoted to stuff he originally intended to skip or gloss over with a 5-year gap. Originally he'd planned for Dany to reach Westeros in ADWD (first as the 2nd of 3 books total, and then as the 5th of 6 or 7 books - SSM). D&D may well decide to hew closer to GRRM's original vision than he has himself.

Why do people don't listen? They said that they see GoT last at least 80 episodes. but that they don't know, because they take the story season per season.

How can they put FfC, DwD and the two next books that will probably be the amount of SoS into 4 seasons? They already said that at the end of season 4 we will have little bits of the next too, not very much so that the same as the ending of season 1 and 2.

Also the CEO stated that GoT is one of his favorite shows so why would he not make it 10 wonderful seasons?

And about DwD and FfC into one season. Don't people forget that they can't just put the big things on the screen? There need to be room for some boring things because they are cheap. You can't have the big things that happen in those 2 books into 1 season because of budgetary reasons. That means a budget of more than a season of Rome (and GRRM needs to write faster, they won't do that, they will help the man best they can by delaying things)

But first season 3 and 4, over 15 months when season 4 ends, I'm going to look what will happen in season 5 not sooner.

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