Kinslayers

[Mladen]

No. No. No

Yes :). Well, kinslaying isn`t that big of a crime, just make sure no one knows about it. Dany won`t be punished by Gods for her crime, she has already been cursed by her `wisdom`...

[Burning down the House]

.

And standing by while your brother is killed is not kinslaying so Dany doesn't belong on the list.

I agree. However does Drogo belong on the list?

[Cas Stark]

I agree. However does Drogo belong on the list?

I may be wrong but I think kinslaying is for blood relatives only, not those by marriage. And, further, I'm not sure kinslaying is considered a sin for the Dothraki?

[Gingerchu]

I agree. However does Drogo belong on the list?

He may have killed a sibling since he is a "savage" but not for killing his brother in law

[Nictarion]

Well, Stannis is no more kinslayer than Dany. She allowed her brother to be murdered in front of her, so basically both of them are kinslayers...

Right cause Dany could have stopped Drogo. Not a chance.

[Thendel]

Right cause Dany could have stopped Drogo. Not a chance.

I'd argue that she could have; she is well underway in the process of getting Drogo under her thumb at this point. Not even trying to interfere is pretty condemning on her part, in my opinion.

As for others:

• Euron Greyjoy: Pretty much a given, especially considering the wording of the Ghost of High Heart's vision.
  
• Robb: So farfetched that I think the wiki should edit it out; Robb and Rickard are way too distantly related.
  

Moreover, I'd add:

• Gregor Clegane: Rumor has it that Gregor killed his father and/or his sister
  
• Ramsay Bolton: Openly accused by his father of killing his half-brother, Domeric.
  
• Aegon II Targaeryen: Fed his sister, Rhaenyra, to his dragon.
  
• Viserys II Targaeryen: Rumored to have poisoned his off-kilter nephew, Baelor I Targaeryen.
  
• Brynden Rivers: Giving the order that killed his half-brother, Daemon Blackfyre, and his nephews, Aemon and Aegon Blackfyre.
  
• Maekar I Targaeryen: Struck the blow that killed his older brother, Baelor 'Breakspear' Targaeryen
  

[lojzelote]

I'd argue that she could have; she is well underway in the process of getting Drogo under her thumb at this point. Not even trying to interfere is pretty condemning on her part, in my opinion.

Viserys broke the sacred laws of the Dothraki in front of Drogo and other Khals. Even if Dany by some miracle managed to talk Drogo out of it, her husband's reputation among the other Dothraki would forever be ruined as the one's who takes orders from his woman. And for whom? For her pathetic abusive crazy brother who just threatened to cut her unborn child out of her womb? Plus, the other Dothraki would have Viserys killed either way. Viserys was a dead man walking the moment he took the sword in his hand. Dany was clever enough to grasp that.

[The Drunkard]

Kinslaying is such a silly stigma.

[Angeli]

I'd argue that she could have; she is well underway in the process of getting Drogo under her thumb at this point. Not even trying to interfere is pretty condemning on her part, in my opinion.

As for others:

• Euron Greyjoy: Pretty much a given, especially considering the wording of the Ghost of High Heart's vision.
  
• Robb: So farfetched that I think the wiki should edit it out; Robb and Rickard are way too distantly related.
  

Moreover, I'd add:

• Gregor Clegane: Rumor has it that Gregor killed his father and/or his sister
  
• Ramsay Bolton: Openly accused by his father of killing his half-brother, Domeric.
  
• Aegon II Targaeryen: Fed his sister, Rhaenyra, to his dragon.
  
• Viserys II Targaeryen: Rumored to have poisoned his off-kilter nephew, Baelor I Targaeryen.
  
• Brynden Rivers: Giving the order that killed his half-brother, Daemon Blackfyre, and his nephews, Aemon and Aegon Blackfyre.
  
• Maekar I Targaeryen: Struck the blow that killed his older brother, Baelor 'Breakspear' Targaeryen
  

All of the people you mentioned are already listed. I ended up leaving everyone (including Robb) on the page. I just added the word "accused" to the category description so it reads: "Characters known, accused, or suspected to have killed their own kin. Generally this renders them social outcasts."

Nobody believes that Robb truly kinslayed, but he was accused of being one in the text so I think it should count. The point of the category is not to be a definitive list of known kinslayers, but rather a list of articles that mention this particular taboo.

[Blue Winter Roses]

No. No. No

I agree. Viserys was killed as punishment for breaking Dothraki customs. Yes, Dany watched it happen, but that doesn't make her responsible. she didn't order his death or carry it out.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I just can't see Stannis as a kinslayer.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I know that the wiki has a discussion section for each page, but nobody looks at those so I'll ask here (and get better answers). It's about the kinslayers category page:

http://awoiaf.wester...gory:Kinslayers

I feel like there's at least four individuals who don't belong there:

Stannis: They're probably talking about Renly here, but do we know that the shadow baby = Stannis?

Euron Greyjoy: I don't know who they're talking about here. Who did he kinslay? Victarion's rock wife? I didn't think he killed her.

Gilwood Hunter: Mistaking Gilwood for his brother Harlan maybe?

Robb Stark: They must be talking about Rickard Karstark here. That's a HUGE stretch. If that counts then we might as well call Robert Baratheon a kinslayer for doing Rhaegar.

So should these guys be removed from the kinslayers category page?

I think there needs to be definition of what a kinslayer is. We do know that the person does not need to know they are kin. But my question is, do they need to be the actual killer or simply be involved in the death. If the first one is true, then Stannis and Euron are not. If the second, the question is how involved do the people need to be to be kinslayers. Is Robb a kinslayer because screwed the Freys over which lead to Cat's death (even if the second option is right, I still feel this is a bit of stretch, but who knows).

Anyways, my point is we don't have a clear definition. So, there is plenty of people (like Stannis and Euron) who are up in the air (I would say that the Starks and Karstarks are too far removed from each other to be considered "kin" otherwise, wouldn't Robert be since I am pretty sure he was closer in blood to Rhaegar than Robb to Karstark).

[Ame]

I think there needs to be definition of what a kinslayer is. We do know that the person does not need to know they are kin. But my question is, do they need to be the actual killer or simply be involved in the death. If the first one is true, then Stannis and Euron are not. If the second, the question is how involved do the people need to be to be kinslayers. Is Robb a kinslayer because screwed the Freys over which lead to Cat's death (even if the second option is right, I still feel this is a bit of stretch, but who knows).

Anyways, my point is we don't have a clear definition. So, there is plenty of people (like Stannis and Euron) who are up in the air (I would say that the Starks and Karstarks are too far removed from each other to be considered "kin" otherwise, wouldn't Robert be since I am pretty sure he was closer in blood to Rhaegar than Robb to Karstark).

I would think it is more of did it happen by your will while you were involved; and was it justifiable under grounds of self defense. Many people feel the Dragonstone Banners are a viable enough army that Stannis could and should have just let Renly's army have a fair fight; I'm not one of them I think Stannis choice was die or kill. Obviously Robb could defend himself under grounds that a king who allows injustice is just as well doing it himself, he is very distantly related to Karstark, and if his army was turn apart from within because of Karstarks warcrimes and because obeying the kings orders to guard somebody isn't a defense against a noblemen Robb Stark dies. I forget their named but there are two ASOIAF brothers who honorably killed each other in combat and are held up as paragons of virtue so self defense is a valid defense for kinslaying.

[Beric Zoolander]

Robb killing Karstark is a huge stretch. They were barely kinsmen. The Karstark line traces it's origin to some second Stark son, who was rewarded with lands and a title hundreds of years ago.

Why I think this is included is because Karkstark himself goes on and on about how its Kinslaying before Robb chops his head off.

[armidil0]

Jon and Tyrion are kinslayers, because their mother died giving birth to them. :P

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Jon, Dany and Tyrion are kinslayers, because their mother died giving birth to them. :P

fixed it for you :cool4:

[Beric Zoolander]

fixed it for you :cool4:

Fixed for both of you :cheers:

We don't know who Jon's mother is!

[Ame]

Why I think this is included is because Karkstark himself goes on and on about how its Kinslaying before Robb chops his head off.

I think you are allowed to preserve your own life and the lives of your familiy against kin; Karstark killed men serving Robb Stark under the feudal contract; a king must provide his fullest and most genuine defense and justice for people risking their lives for him; Karstark killed them; he also killed young Lannister children giving the Lannisters a reason to retaliate against young Stark children. Both to preserve his own army (the iron throne kills him if it doesn't stay) and the lives of his sisters Robb has to kill Karstark.

Kinslaying doesn't mean your not allowed to defend your family and your life against kin.

[armidil0]

Fixed for both of you :cheers:

We don't know who Jon's mother is!

Whoever it is, I think it is a fair assumption that they are dead. Ashara -most likely dead, Wylla- probably dead, Lyanna-dead.

[Beric Zoolander]

Whoever it is, I think it is a fair assumption that they are dead. Ashara -most likely dead, Wylla- probably dead, Lyanna-dead.

True but dead because of Jon and just plain dead are two different things!