Randyll Tarly is an terrible commander

[Nyrhex]

I've seen you use this argument before and it's an absolute stinker imho, because it doesn't account for the circumstances in which Robert was nearly found by the royalist forces in Stony Sept: almost alone and bereft of his men. Unless there was another major encounter in the war, of which we have as yet heard nothing (which is very unlikely), it was in the aftermath of Ashford that Robert's achievement in the stormlands fell apart. He was, we suspect, hoping to rally forces there, ensure the region's defence, and then head to a union with the other rebel forces (although the plan may not have been so detailed). He failed in both of these objectives; we know the Stormlands were invaded, the Tyrells sweeping through the whole country and receiving the submission of all, saving Stannis' 500 men in SE.

The stormlanders army, as I said, seems to have fallen apart, either deserting or falling back to defend their own lands and castles when Robert proved unable to construct a reasonable defence for their property at Ashford. The actual tactical achievement may have been indecisive, but Tarly's prompt action ensured the Stormlands would fall prey to the Tyrell armies and the northern rebels would receive little to no support from Robert's southern domain. Tarly had a much better understanding of the dynamics of that campaign than you do because he realised that Robert's thrust at Ashford was part of an attempt to secure defensible borders, keeps and castles in the foe's rear in preparation for a move north. By thwarting this plan while Mace was lagging Tarly met the objective of knocking the Baratheon troops out of the war.

Where was it at Stony Sept?

Martin is not clear regarding Robert's force. On one hand, Tyrion says little casualties and Robert moved north. On the other how does one hide an army in a town being searched house to house, and how are there Stormlords again for the Trident if there is no army?

Tarly sees the objective as bleeding forces from Robert, but he chooses to go and siege his home with Mace rather then chase and destroy his army and kill him? That makes sense how? Robert still has forces for the Battle of the Trident, where he kills Rhaegar and wins the war.

Tarly was one of the architects of king Joffrey's victory. The army at Bitterbridge was riven with internal dissent owing to the fact most of its lords and knights were riding with Stannis. Much of the foot wasn't even from the Reach and as such owed no loyalty to Mace. Stannis sent messengers to work with his supporters and gain control of the army; a plan that would have won him the iron throne if it succeeded. It was Tarly who thwarted it, preserving his liege lord's freedom of action and paving the way for Tywin and Mace to bring crushing force to bear against Stannis.

So not the architect, just one of. Nice to know that Tarly knows what his lord needs to do, and is ready to kill men of another Tyrell bannermen. What if Mace chose to side with Stannis? How does Tarly expect to explain that he killed Florents to avoid his Lord's siding with Stannis?

He fights and routs the foe at Duskendale, perhaps taking a hundred casualties and forcing the broken and demoralized Starks to retreat where Gregor, waiting some distance in their rear destroys them without difficulty. The plan went off almost perfectly; I remain unsure what your issue with it is.

First of all you claim a hundred losses, with 3,000 Northeners fighting to thier deaths. You don't see this as odd. Other then that, my issuie is that it did not need to end in bloodbath, Tarly's approach of "just charge" prooves again that he relies on numbers rather then tactics. He had all the information, he had the numbers, but he still went with the simple plan of bloodbath.

Gregor gets around I guess; he is a good thug. He has never displayed the competence that Tarly was when given an independent command and his liege has no regard for his skill, reserving him for suicide missions and baby murdering. In any case, he certainly didn't succeed where Tarly failed at Duskendale, they both executed their roles in the Tywin-Roose plan to perfection.

Gregor palyed his part in Duskendale, but Tarly's plan was careless and disregarding of his men's lives. Gregor still achieves for Tywin way more then Tarly achieved for Mace. Tarly had to rely on Gregor's few hundreds to destroy 3,000 men in a trap. Gregor destroy's 2,000 alone. Both battles were traps, but Gregor shows more competence.

[Nyrhex]

Actually, at Stoney Sept, Robert doesn't have an army, just some knights that he managed to break through with. If Ned hadn't been a virgin when he bedded Cat and had taken a little longer, Robert dies there and Tarly is an absolute hero.

Robert still has forces on the Trident. Martin is not clear on Robert's forces between Ashford and the Trident. Short enough for you?

Is this all your second point, cuz its totally tldr

You are a pathetic debater. If you can't be bothered to read and reply don't bother posting.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I'm waiting for the "Arianne Martell is ugly" thread.

where's the like buttom when you need one ?

You're second point is totally invalid. Stannis did become a big threat as Randyll predicted.

well stannis ith of the original 5 kings the last one Standing

[Naathi Prince]

Robert still has forces on the Trident. Martin is not clear on Robert's forces between Ashford and the Trident. Short enough for you?

You are a pathetic debater. If you can't be bothered to read and reply don't bother posting.

Robert has 30,000 men, which includes men from the North, the Vale, and the Riverlands. There isn't a lot of room for his Stormlanders there.

I used to write like you do, then I had a writing teacher who told me that short succinct is much more effective. I tend to agree with him. When someone's point gets a little rambly, I'm not going to bother with it.

[Arkantos]

Mace didn't just send Rhaegar a few hundred men out of the thousands he had.

http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1043/

It's odd that there are no in-book references to such a large Tyrell contribution to the trident, but we know of people like the Crabbs, Brunes, and Boggses, sounds like GRRM might've messed up, he occasionally does.

Maybe tis a retcon. Someone spotted something odd about how the Tyrells acted so GRRM was all like, "Oh no, they did something I didn't write as well"...

I still think people are underestimating the size of the combined Crownlands & non Tyrell loyalist forces, I assumed that they didn't want to mix the Reach & Dornish armies due to the hate between them, but it would make more sense that there were some Tyrell men there, the wiki should be updated.

I used to write like you do, then I had a writing teacher who told me that short succinct is much more effective. I tend to agree with him. When someone's point gets a little rambly, I'm not going to bother with it.

Amen to that.

[Nyrhex]

Robert has 30,000 men, which includes men from the North, the Vale, and the Riverlands. There isn't a lot of room for his Stormlanders there.

Considering that Robb marches with 18,500 men, the Riverlands adding ~15-20K post war, and the Vale assuped to have ~35k, that leaves little for them as well.

I used to write like you do, then I had a writing teacher who told me that short succinct is much more effective. I tend to agree with him. When someone's point gets a little rambly, I'm not going to bother with it.

If you bothered to read the post and then click on the reply bottun, you would notice that point #2 was 2 lines, the rest was replys to other parts of Bran The Cute's post. I suggest you go to a reading teacher before claiming someone elses posts are rambly and so you won't bother reading or replying.

[Naathi Prince]

Considering that Robb marches with 18,500 men, the Riverlands adding ~15-20K post war, and the Vale assuped to have ~35k, that leaves little for them as well.

If you bothered to read the post and then click on the reply bottun, you would notice that point #2 was 2 lines, the rest was replys to other parts of Bran The Cute's post. I suggest you go to a reading teacher before claiming someone elses posts are rambly and so you won't bother reading or replying.

Well, it can be assumed that the Vale needs to leave men behind to defend, but all that you said there reinforces my point, Robert cannot have had many men from the Stormlands with him at the Trident.

I am sorry, you said two points, not two points and a bunch of other ranting.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I angry that Tarly is overhyped, but still good and nowhere near terrible.

[Nyrhex]

Well, it can be assumed that the Vale needs to leave men behind to defend, but all that you said there reinforces my point, Robert cannot have had many men from the Stormlands with him at the Trident.

No, it doesn't, logicaly. Niether army had it's full force. Robert probably had less then the others, but there is no mentioning of how different the numbers were for each army.

I am sorry, you said two points, not two points and a bunch of other ranting.

I said 2 point while replying to a part of a post. In the internet there are these things called forums, where people can reply to one another, sometimes having more then one talking point in what is called "posts". It is possible to have several conversations while replying to different talking point in the same post. You canceling the rest of said post because you fail to understand this very basic fact about internet forums does not equal to the rest of my post being ramblings. You claiming my post was rambling is, however, equal to you not having the time/energy/will/belief in yourself of being right/whatever to actually read and respond like people do on forums. It's a cheap trick to cause me to defend my points without bothering to defend yours or to find holes in my argument. Please try to bring a point or talk about one of mine or I'm not going to respond to you anymore.

[Theda Baratheon]

No, no, no. Randyll Tarly is a terrible PERSON; but not a terrible commander.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Everyone has stated how awesome Randyll Tarly is pretty frequently in the books, and we actually see how well he keeps his men disciplined when Brienne stops at Maidenpool.

I agree. It wasn't just his utter control of his men that I admired. I was more impressed in how he used this control - he rebuilt the destroyed town and make it thrive again. We don't see that often in this story.

You could also make the case that a good commander gets his men to carry out his orders explicitly and without hesitation, irregardless of what his win/loss ratio in battles.

[Chaircat Meow]

Martin is not clear regarding Robert's force. On one hand, Tyrion says little casualties and Robert moved north. On the other how does one hide an army in a town being searched house to house, and how are there Stormlords again for the Trident if there is no army?

Ok, do we know where the quotes and references for the stormlords on the Trident are? There can have been a few there, friends and companions who went north with Robert, who would have been concealed in Stony Sept or nearby places. All I am saying is that Robert appeared to be taking the Stormlands (Summerhall), then we hear of a defeat at Ashford, and the next thing we hear is Robert is going north, seemingly sans army and the Tyrells are ploughing through the stormlands. Seems hard to me to argue Tarly screwed up.

Tarly sees the objective as bleeding forces from Robert, but he chooses to go and siege his home with Mace rather then chase and destroy his army and kill him? That makes sense how? Robert still has forces for the Battle of the Trident, where he kills Rhaegar and wins the war.

We don't know exactly what he did. Robert's army wasn't destroyed in a rout straight after the battle though, you are correct, or else Tyrion's account makes precious little sense. Why not just assume Robert stole a march on Tyrell (explains Mace lagging) and Tarly caught him partially unprepared, thwarting whatever he was trying to achieve near Ashford, a victory that set in motion the collapse of Robert's position in the south?

So not the architect, just one of. Nice to know that Tarly knows what his lord needs to do, and is ready to kill men of another Tyrell bannermen. What if Mace chose to side with Stannis? How does Tarly expect to explain that he killed Florents to avoid his Lord's siding with Stannis?

Mace was actually there as far as I am aware. Tarly stopped the army being taken out of his hands by the Florents when many loyalties were dubious.

First of all you claim a hundred losses, with 3,000 Northeners fighting to thier deaths. You don't see this as odd. Other then that, my issuie is that it did not need to end in bloodbath, Tarly's approach of "just charge" prooves again that he relies on numbers rather then tactics. He had all the information, he had the numbers, but he still went with the simple plan of bloodbath.

Meh, maybe you should bash Tywin for this, he had control of where Gregor was placed as far as I aware. I seem to recall the losses on Tarly's side were low enough for the fallen to be buried in septs in the city, while the northerners had pits outside.

Gregor palyed his part in Duskendale, but Tarly's plan was careless and disregarding of his men's lives. Gregor still achieves for Tywin way more then Tarly achieved for Mace. Tarly had to rely on Gregor's few hundreds to destroy 3,000 men in a trap. Gregor destroy's 2,000 alone. Both battles were traps, but Gregor shows more competence.

Gregor did perform well at the Ruby Ford, tis true, but the foe was more vulnerable there as they were totally unsuspecting and just about to cross the river.

[Nyrhex]

Ok, do we know where the quotes and references for the stormlords on the Trident are? There can have been a few there, friends and companions who went north with Robert, who would have been concealed in Stony Sept or nearby places. All I am saying is that Robert appeared to be taking the Stormlands (Summerhall), then we hear of a defeat at Ashford, and the next thing we hear is Robert is going north, seemingly sans army and the Tyrells are ploughing through the stormlands. Seems hard to me to argue Tarly screwed up.

We don't know exactly what he did. Robert's army wasn't destroyed in a rout straight after the battle though, you are correct, or else Tyrion's account makes precious little sense. Why not just assume Robert stole a march on Tyrell (explains Mace lagging) and Tarly caught him partially unprepared, thwarting whatever he was trying to achieve near Ashford, a victory that set in motion the collapse of Robert's position in the south?

This is more likely, but then if Tarly wants to fulfill Mace's objective, why not chase Robert? If he destroys the army the siege is pointless and Mace's army can go north and fight the rest of the rebels while sending a small force to Make sure the Stormlands are secure. A siege of 500 men in SE can be handeled by 5,000 surely. The rest are badly needed up north. Tarly basically counts on others to finish his job.

Mace was actually there as far as I am aware. Tarly stopped the army being taken out of his hands by the Florents when many loyalties were dubious.

IIRC, Mace was still bringing 10k men from Highgarden, which should have turned Renly's 80k strong army he claims to have in Bitterbridge into 90k.

Meh, maybe you should bash Tywin for this, he had control of where Gregor was placed as far as I aware. I seem to recall the losses on Tarly's side were low enough for the fallen to be buried in septs in the city, while the northerners had pits outside.

Meh, can also mean that Tarly bueried his fallen in proper buerial, while the rebels are bueried like rebels. Tarly should still have enough men and time to prepare a proper "L" ambush that links up with Gregor. The Northeners were taking thier time burning thier way to Duskendale.

EDIT: Another point which I forgot is that the Northeners worship the old gods. There is little reason to bury them under the sept of the Seven, unless you are being an ass.

Gregor did perform well at the Ruby Ford, tis true, but the foe was more vulnerable there as they were totally unsuspecting and just about to cross the river.

The Northeners did not suspect thier rear to be left open by Roose for Gregor to block them ,or for Tarly to park an army in Duskendale. The original point was that Gregor still proved more valuable to Tywin then Tarly was to Mace.

[King Aerys the Just]

This is more likely, but then if Tarly wants to fulfill Mace's objective, why not chase Robert? If he destroys the army the siege is pointless and Mace's army can go north and fight the rest of the rebels while sending a small force to Make sure the Stormlands are secure. A siege of 500 men in SE can be handeled by 5,000 surely. The rest are badly needed up north. Tarly basically counts on others to finish his job.

Tarly was just a subordinate commander though. It isn't unreasonable to assume that Lord Puff Fish was the one who decided on the overall large scale manuevers of the Reach armies, and we know how "good" he is.

[Naathi Prince]

No, it doesn't, logicaly. Niether army had it's full force. Robert probably had less then the others, but there is no mentioning of how different the numbers were for each army.

I said 2 point while replying to a part of a post. In the internet there are these things called forums, where people can reply to one another, sometimes having more then one talking point in what is called "posts". It is possible to have several conversations while replying to different talking point in the same post. You canceling the rest of said post because you fail to understand this very basic fact about internet forums does not equal to the rest of my post being ramblings. You claiming my post was rambling is, however, equal to you not having the time/energy/will/belief in yourself of being right/whatever to actually read and respond like people do on forums. It's a cheap trick to cause me to defend my points without bothering to defend yours or to find holes in my argument. Please try to bring a point or talk about one of mine or I'm not going to respond to you anymore.

sure, but it is fairly easy to posit their numbers. Ned and Hoster had only fought one battle, the Battle of the Bells, while Jon Arryn had fought the Battle of Gulltown. Robert, meanwhile, fought Summerhall and then Ashford, and did not have many men left when he got to Stoney Sept. Tarly decimated robert's forces, and the effort to take even the glory of Ashford away from him is part of what makes this entire thread so silly.

As far the tldr, look, I'm sorry if I sounded too dickish, but on internet forums, succinctness is praised even more than normal.

[Runaway Penguin]

Tarly is hard, competent commander. Maybe not best tactical genius, but still "good enough", and with good grasp on operational and strategic aspects. He keeps lines of communications, maintains hold on strategic places...

As the saying goes, "Excellent strategy and poor tactics is the slowest, most painful way to victory. Excellent tactics and poor strategy is a lot of noise before defeat."

[Nyrhex]

Tarly was just a subordinate commander though. It isn't unreasonable to assume that Lord Puff Fish was the one who decided on the overall large scale manuevers of the Reach armies, and we know how "good" he is.

If Mace did not show up in time for battle then he showed up well after Tarly gave up persuit. You can't bring all your foot and siege engines and still catch a (mostly?) mounted vanguard chasing a fleeing army and decimating them. Tarly saw his objective as denying Robert Ashford, and clearing the way for Mace's army to reach the Stormlands. His failure to understand that chasing Robert and destroying him would negate the reason for the campeign in the Stormlands, is what I am criticising. Alternatively, he thought he can't finish Robert with just the Van, but then it makes his attack pointless to begin with.

sure, but it is fairly easy to posit their numbers. Ned and Hoster had only fought one battle, the Battle of the Bells, while Jon Arryn had fought the Battle of Gulltown. Robert, meanwhile, fought Summerhall and then Ashford, and did not have many men left when he got to Stoney Sept. Tarly decimated robert's forces, and the effort to take even the glory of Ashford away from him is part of what makes this entire thread so silly.As far the tldr, look, I'm sorry if I sounded too dickish, but on internet forums, succinctness is praised even more than normal.

Ned had to get south fast, it's possible that like Robb, he did not take his full force. Huster had several battles, like Arryn, and like Arryn, not all of his bannermen came to the Trident. The loyalist's forces list houses from the Vale and the Riverlands as well. That's not even counting Frey with his 4,000 men not showing up untill after the battle is won.

As far the tldr, look, I'm sorry if I sounded too dickish, but on internet forums, succinctness is praised even more than normal.

That's OK, I'm probably overly cranky because I'm sick and I have a paper I need to finish by Tuesday but I can't get around to. I'll try and make shorter posts so it can be easier to read but if there is a point to be made I rather make it properly and not just too open.

[Chaircat Meow]

If Mace did not show up in time for battle then he showed up well after Tarly gave up persuit. You can't bring all your foot and siege engines and still catch a (mostly?) mounted vanguard chasing a fleeing army and decimating them. Tarly saw his objective as denying Robert Ashford, and clearing the way for Mace's army to reach the Stormlands. His failure to understand that chasing Robert and destroying him would negate the reason for the campeign in the Stormlands, is what I am criticising. Alternatively, he thought he can't finish Robert with just the Van, but then it makes his attack pointless to begin with.

We don't actually know what the Tyrell plan was, or whether they were bringing siege engines from Highgarden. They could have been told to prepare for an invasion of the stormlords, but felt they had to react to a thrust at Ashford. Also, there are lots more things we don't know about the battle that make judgments like this dubious. Robert isn't going to have left SE without a garrison when he made for Ashford either; blaming Tarly for failing to pursue and saying this led to siege is just ... well ... unfair is a word that springs to mind.

Also Tarly might not have had anywhere near as many men as Robert, and may have felt a long pursuit very near the stormlords borders was a recipe for getting the van cut apart. If Robert's men fled in different directions, aiming for near by fortresses, you might not want to split up a force that is only 3-4,000 strong to chase them over long distances.

Can't we just agree he likely won a battle with inferior numbers, against one of the best generals in westeros, which at least had the affect of making Robert's position in the stormlands fall apart.

[Runaway Penguin]

Exactly, good commander would know when to call off his troops to re-form for their primary mission of being a vanguard.

Actually this is somethign many commanders had problem with. Especially cavalry often tended to charge too far and spread too thin in pursuit, it was a common illness of British cavalry in the Napoleonics ofr example.

[Chaircat Meow]

I think there have been some well structured and thought out arguments against Tarly on this thread, but in the end I just do have to wonder: has Samwell made himself multiple accounts to rip the living daylights out of his dad on this board?

No leader who GrrM has given a good reputation and some victories gets as much shit as Randyll Tarly.